Militant Vegans

[groovyalbert]

Would you have stats for this? I'd have thought tofu shipped from Asia to EU would still be better environmentally than beef sourced from within the EU? Hard to quantify though, I'd imagine.

https://commercialwaste.trade/ethical-debates-soy-bad-environment-commercial-waste/

Not exact quotes, but the above highlights the level of deforestation required for the current production of soy, and how 1 litre of soy milk requires 300 litres of water to produce.

I'm not saying that people should cut it out, but more that correctly highlighting the negative environmental impacts of the meat industry shouldn't mean overlooking other impacts. It's also why I'm more inclined to think that a varied and locally sourced diet as much as possible is probably the best way forward, and not necessarily requiring the entire cutting out of certain foods.

Also, cattle rearing has been proven to be one of the best counteractions to desertification in particularly harsh climates in the world. So totally dismantling this would not have purely positive effects everywhere.

 

[groovyalbert]

Interesting. Is there a particular reason you're ranked octopus ahead of chickens and cows?

I have cut down my meat intake a fair bit, but I've also started to feel similarly about eating Pork, and really try to avoid it. I went down a rabbit hole of watching videos about pigs a while back, and they are great. Intelligent and seem to share some characteristics to dogs in terms of the affection they can give to other people/animals, and their capacity to learn. So now I've arbitrarily ranked pigs above other animals that humans would typically eat.

Honestly, I think it's due to their intelligence and just my personal preferences. I feel similarly towards pork as you stated, although that's a bit harder to cut out given its common place in UK diets. Octopus is perhaps a bit of a cop out due to it being a pretty specialist food type in London! I'm sure there's a subconscious level where I find myself bargaining that by not eating that gives me a license to indulge elsewhere, but to err is human and all that

 

[sebsheep]

What's the issue? It's a lifestyle choice. Having people demand that you become Religious or demand that you become Vegan rubs me up the wrong way. feck those people. My sister is Vegan, some of my friends are Vegan and they do not tell me I'm a horrific human being for eating meat and they don't try and persuade me to become a Vegan. I'm not attacking people being Vegan, but I will tell the people who try to force me to become Vegan to feck off.

Yeah, the smart thing to do would be to raise people to eat certain foods from a young age. That way you can make them believe that certain practices are perfectly fine even if they're really decked up.

 

[sebsheep]

Would you have stats for this? I'd have thought tofu shipped from Asia to EU would still be better environmentally than beef sourced from within the EU? Hard to quantify though, I'd imagine.

It's framed in a very particular way there so it makes vegans the bad people. Most soy is produced for animal consumption, so that people can then eat those animals.
Funnily enough that's exactly what is pointed out in the article he linked to you after that.

 

[VanDeBank]

So what’s your well researched view about the worst-case impacts of the global temperature increases?

Relevance?
Geological records show no correlation between CO2 levels and (estimates) of temperature. There have been far higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere coinciding with lower temperatures than we see today. Where did you hear such nonsense (that the earth will become a uninhabitable wasteland)?

Would you have stats for this? I'd have thought tofu shipped from Asia to EU would still be better environmentally than beef sourced from within the EU? Hard to quantify though, I'd imagine.

You are correct. Meat has the highest carbon footprint (or equivalent output of other greenhouse gasses), sitting quite well below that is dairy and eggs (not taking into consideration here that the production chain of animal products has some overlap), a bit below that is plants are shipped from other continents. If you'd care about reducing your carbon footprint or whatever eating locally sourced food instead of avocado (probably - I don't know where you're from) would help significantly, though not as much as cutting out meat.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It's framed in a very particular way there so it makes vegans the bad people. Most soy is produced for animal consumption, so that people can then eat those animals.
Funnily enough that's exactly what is pointed out in the article he linked to you after that.

This! Soy is majority made for animal consumption so if the animals weren't eating it then well...we could.

The article literally says it's a non issue envormentally when feeding humans

 

[BD]

It's framed in a very particular way there so it makes vegans the bad people. Most soy is produced for animal consumption, so that people can then eat those animals.
Funnily enough that's exactly what is pointed out in the article he linked to you after that.

Yeah I noticed that, but wasn't too bothered to reply. Most sources that I found in a quick Google say that tofu is always more environmentally friendly than meat, no matter how you choose to define 'environmentally friendly'.

I think it's clear that eating less meat is something we should all do if we wanna help against climate change. I guess people don't really want to do that though, so they come up with dodgy arguments against common vegetarian foods. (not necessarily groovyalbert here, just a general thing I've noticed).

 

[berbatrick]

If everyone ate purely vegan diets by todays standards there would be hugely negative impacts on the environment with regards to demand for soy etc - also so many vegan staple ingredients are shipped in from overseas which in itself has a massive impact.

A massive amount of soy is used as animal feed. In total, 840 million tons of potentially human-edible food is used as animal feed. This is not including ranching and grazing land, and the land that the animals are actually incubated in. Finally, the emissions from shipping are a tiny proportion of overall food emissions, and are not different for plants vs meat.

Spoiler: Meat emissions are overall much higher, plant transport emissions are mostly negligible

Since you mentioned water in your other post:

There's no black magic reason for any of this.
Animals are secondary consumers, so to feed them, you first need to grow plants (which require the usual inputs), and further, conversion of feed to meat is inefficient (because a lot of the feed is converted by animals into energy for breathing, pumping blood etc). So for every calorie of meat you obtain, you need to provide roughly 5-10X the calories as feed. Plus the water and space requirements of the animal itself.
As long as food production involves animals as an intermediate step, I don't see how this inefficiency goes away.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Relevance?
Geological records show no correlation between CO2 levels and (estimates) of temperature. There have been far higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere coinciding with lower temperatures than we see today. Where did you hear such nonsense (that the earth will become a uninhabitable wasteland)?

You are correct. Meat has the highest carbon footprint (or equivalent output of other greenhouse gasses), sitting quite well below that is dairy and eggs (not taking into consideration here that the production chain of animal products has some overlap), a bit below that is plants are shipped from other continents. If you'd care about reducing your carbon footprint or whatever eating locally sourced food instead of avocado (probably - I don't know where you're from) would help significantly, though not as much as cutting out meat.

Except you didn’t actually ask my question.

My question was about you suggesting it was laughable to claim that temperature rises would render the planet inhospitable for us.

My question, again, is what is the clearly well researched materials you have read that lead you to believe that my viewpoint is laughable?

What have you read that so readily disproves this, that explains that it’s all doom-mongering?

 

[F-Red]

I imagine it would be fun viewing the suffragettes who got women the vote, or the unions who won the weekend and work time limitations as people who ‘found a way to justify being dickheads a lot of the time.’

Some gymnastics that to compare a dietary lifestyle to that of human rights.

 

[VanDeBank]

Except you didn’t actually ask my question.

My question was about you suggesting it was laughable to claim that temperature rises would render the planet inhospitable for us.

My question, again, is what is the clearly well researched materials you have read that lead you to believe that my viewpoint is laughable?

What have you read that so readily disproves this, that explains that it’s all doom-mongering?

Let's not reverse the burden of proof. You made the claim that the earth is going to become uninhabitable. It's an outrageous claim given the fact that temperatures have been lower with far higher levels of CO2 in earth's history. This was in the post you responded to and it answers your answer.

 

[sebsheep]

Yeah I noticed that, but wasn't too bothered to reply. Most sources that I found in a quick Google say that tofu is always more environmentally friendly than meat, no matter how you choose to define 'environmentally friendly'.

I think it's clear that eating less meat is something we should all do if we wanna help against climate change. I guess people don't really want to do that though, so they come up with dodgy arguments against common vegetarian foods. (not necessarily groovyalbert here, just a general thing I've noticed).

Feel free to go after him, he used the term soy milk and I have no idea what that is. I only see Soya drink on the shelves!

I remember saying a lot of daft stuff to justify not being vegan, though I was never a massive meat eater. A few videos of what they do to male baby chicks and I eventually couldn't justify it to myself. I'm the only one in my house though, might have to start sitting in front of the fridge...

 

[sebsheep]

Some gymnastics that to compare a dietary lifestyle to that of human rights.

Comparing human rights to animal rights is closer to what people are doing.

 

[F-Red]

Comparing human rights to animal rights is closer to what people are doing.

Still miles wide.

 

[sebsheep]

Still miles wide.

Depends on how you feel about animal rights really.

 

[F-Red]

Depends on how you feel about animal rights really.

The fact most were championing veganism because of the environmental impact then I feel the animal rights element is either a convenient discussion for those talking about the environment or a small 'for' point.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The fact most were championing veganism because of the environmental impact then I feel the animal rights element is either a convenient discussion for those talking about the environment or a small 'for' point.

It's the other way around, by a quite big margin.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Let's not reverse the burden of proof. You made the claim that the earth is going to become uninhabitable. It's an outrageous claim given the fact that temperatures have been lower with far higher levels of CO2 in earth's history. This was in the post you responded to and it answers your answer.

Or you can answer the simple question?

You should know the score now honestly, the world has been steadily getting hotter during the industrial revolution because of CO2 emissions. Almost all climate change scientests agree so the burden of proof is on you.

 

[F-Red]

It's the other way around, by a quite big margin.

I'm sure you've done the research.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I'm sure you've done the research.

No, but other people have. Here's one example: Motives of consumers following a vegan diet and their attitudes towards animal agriculture

89.7 % mentions animal rights as a motivation, 69.3 % health/personal well-being and 46.8 % environmental reasons.

 

[F-Red]

No, but other people have. Here's one example: Motives of consumers following a vegan diet and their attitudes towards animal agriculture

89.7 % mentions animal rights as a motivation, 69.3 % health/personal well-being and 46.8 % environmental reasons.

6 years ago? I think the discussion has moved on quite significantly since then. You only have to read this thread a good base for that.

 

[sebsheep]

The fact most were championing veganism because of the environmental impact then I feel the animal rights element is either a convenient discussion for those talking about the environment or a small 'for' point.

I would agree with @NotThatSoph in that I've generally encountered it happening the other way round.

I guess if you see it more as an environment first thing then what people are really protesting for is actually human rights.

 

[VeevaVee]

Here you hear from three people who know the nicer type of vegan:







None of them are vegan themselves. It's a small sample. But perhaps it suggests that the non-confrontational middle ground is useless, and probably less effective than even the worst protests?

Being vegan doesn’t automatically equal being an activist though.

There are ways to be an activist without being a dick to people who just want to get to work, or eat something, or get their kid to the hospital. Without fecking over potential allies, while leaving the people who cause these problems with little to be worried about.
But if it does work, then great.

 

[VanDeBank]

Or you can answer the simple question?

Are you incapable of googling that ice core records show CO2 levels have been high with no warming?

Will it blow your mind when I google it myself and post a link that shows this to be true? What do you want to accomplish here and what is the relevance with regards to the outrageous claim that earth is going to become uninhabitable?, which even your esteemed climate scientists are not saying.

 

[Drainy]

6 years ago? I think the discussion has moved on quite significantly since then. You only have to read this thread a good base for that.

I became a vegan 6 years ago. All 3 reasons were the reasons I gave up animal products, though I have let the health side go, admittedly!

 

[NotThatSoph]

6 years ago? I think the discussion has moved on quite significantly since then. You only have to read this thread a good base for that.

Lets try again, then. VEGANUARY 2021: THE OFFICIAL SURVEY RESULTS ARE IN!

Veganuary is what the name says: people trying to go vegan for at least a month. 46 % cited animal rights as their primary motivation, 22 % personal health and 21 % the enviroment.

Consumers’ motivations for adopting a vegan diet: A mixed-methods approach. This 2021 study is a bit more complicated regarding percentages, and I can't be bothered to read it all very carefully, but it finds that animal rights, animal empathy and personal accountability are the strongest factors.

Why People Go Vegan? is a 2021 survey among people using a vegan dating app, because why not. 89 % mentioned animal rights as a key motivating factor, 64 % the environment and 53 % health.

44% Of Hong Kong People Who Are Changing Their Diets Are Doing It For Animals, Survey Data Shows is a 2020 survey by GreenQueen on people in Hong Kong switching towards a vegan, vegetarian or flexitarian (vegan/vegetarian with cheat meals, basically). 44 % said animal rights was their most important motivation, 24 % environment and 23 % health.

The reason the percentages vary so much is that some of the surveys allows respondents to choose several factors, while some of them are asking for the most important one.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Let's not reverse the burden of proof. You made the claim that the earth is going to become uninhabitable. It's an outrageous claim given the fact that temperatures have been lower with far higher levels of CO2 in earth's history. This was in the post you responded to and it answers your answer.

Reversing the burden of proof! OK here goes…

The increasing gasses emitted by the globalisation of industries such as meat productions are contributing to the constant temperature increase in the atmosphere.

Said temperature increases are (a) increasing sea levels due to glacial melting, (b) rending former and current farmland baron, and (c) increasing the rate of extreme weather such as storms, flooding etc.

But go ahead, just claim I’m talking out of my arse without having anything substantive to back up your claims.

 

[VanDeBank]

Reversing the burden of proof! OK here goes…

The increasing gasses emitted by the globalisation of industries such as meat productions are contributing to the constant temperature increase in the atmosphere.

Said temperature increases are (a) increasing sea levels due to glacial melting, (b) rending former and current farmland baron, and (c) increasing the rate of extreme weather such as storms, flooding etc.

But go ahead, just claim I’m talking out of my arse without having anything substantive to back up your claims.

There's a lot of mental gymnastics required to go from this to uninhabitable planet.

 

[SilentWitness]

The ‘low intelligence’ / ‘mental deficiency’ are just semantics. I’d have the same answer to that one.

I just don’t see how you see people willing to strike / protest / become militant about a topic as being of low intelligence.

Please enlighten me.

As a vegan myself, yes I do find it dumb when they pour milk out because I highly doubt that the shop is going to be using vegan products to clean their mess and it’s a waste of that animals life. I’m probably in a small category of vegans that think it’s better that the food or drink is eaten once produced than just thrown away.

 

[VanDeBank]

My biggest gripe with the militant vegans/zealots is that a vegan diet is suboptimal for health, and that they want to impose their preferences on other people through policies such as taxation on (healthy cuts of) meat. A green MP here recently said X meat is cheaper than vegetables/fruit and "that's just wrong!", omitting the fact that the meat she was referring to was made out of mechanically separated meat (the kind pet food is made of) and is beneficial in preventing waste. The vast majority of vegetables are way, way cheaper than meat.

I recall seeing vegan propaganda in primary school, supposedly humans are meant to be plant eaters, here's a picture of herbivore and carnivore intestine tracts! Anyone that's thought about this critically, should know that it's bunk and the data they use to show that veganism is great for health is cherry picked.

I was vegan for a few months and vegetarian for 3+ years in uni. The reason being I wasn't training when I was vegan and I wasn't barbell training when I was a vegetarian and there are legitimate environmental and animal welfare issues for it.

You just can't get enough protein to be strong (recover from resistance training) with a vegan diet. And anyone that's looked at the leucine content of a slice bread (0,11g per 35g) and that of a any cut of lean meat (2,5-3g per 100g) knows why. The vegan propaganda in this regard (game changers film) pisses me off. None of the "vegan athletes" got big and strong with a vegan diet (they switched to it after being meat eaters that got them there) and they don't show they're eating a metric shit ton of concentrated plant protein to meet their protein requirements. Also none of those supposed athletes are competitive at anything.

Animal products are healthy. They're incredibly nutrient dense, contain vitamin B12, vitamin D, A and omega 3 fatty acids (the latter 2 which can be produced by the body but not in optimal amounts for everyone).

Humans are meant to eat animals and can survive on a vegan diet. Any study comparing vegans vs omnivores isn't taking into consideration veganism is a dietary intervention.

We know that being strong and resistance training is important for health, so telling a 70 year old they should eat less meat when their protein requirements are quite high is a harmful thing to do.

High intake of soy can literally make men impotent and give them tits. There's really no way to get 150-200g of protein without going through a jar of plant protein every week.

A healthy diet contains fatty fish once a week, organ meat a few times a year, occasional or daily eggs and dairy, and a small cut of white meat. Militant vegans that want other people to sacrifice health in order to "save the planet" can feck off.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

High intake of soy can literally make men impotent and give them tits

Wasn't this debunked?

 

[Raoul]

My biggest gripe with the militant vegans/zealots is that a vegan diet is suboptimal for health, and that they want to impose their preferences on other people through policies such as taxation on (healthy cuts of) meat. A green MP here recently said X meat is cheaper than vegetables/fruit and "that's just wrong!", omitting the fact that the meat she was referring to was made out of mechanically separated meat (the kind pet food is made of) and is beneficial in preventing waste. The vast majority of vegetables are way, way cheaper than meat.

I recall seeing vegan propaganda in primary school, supposedly humans are meant to be plant eaters, here's a picture of herbivore and carnivore intestine tracts! Anyone that's thought about this critically, should know that it's bunk and the data they use to show that veganism is great for health is cherry picked.

I was vegan for a few months and vegetarian for 3+ years in uni. The reason being I wasn't training when I was vegan and I wasn't barbell training when I was a vegetarian and there are legitimate environmental and animal welfare issues for it.

You just can't get enough protein to be strong (recover from resistance training) with a vegan diet. And anyone that's looked at the leucine content of a slice bread (0,11g per 35g) and that of a any cut of lean meat (2,5-3g per 100g) knows why. The vegan propaganda in this regard (game changers film) pisses me off. None of the "vegan athletes" got big and strong with a vegan diet (they switched to it after being meat eaters that got them there) and they don't show they're eating a metric shit ton of concentrated plant protein to meet their protein requirements. Also none of those supposed athletes are competitive at anything.

Animal products are healthy. They're incredibly nutrient dense, contain vitamin B12, vitamin D, A and omega 3 fatty acids (the latter 2 which can be produced by the body but not in optimal amounts for everyone).

Humans are meant to eat animals and can survive on a vegan diet. Any study comparing vegans vs omnivores isn't taking into consideration veganism is a dietary intervention.

We know that being strong and resistance training is important for health, so telling a 70 year old they should eat less meat when their protein requirements are quite high is a harmful thing to do.

High intake of soy can literally make men impotent and give them tits. There's really no way to get 150-200g of protein without going through a jar of plant protein every week.

A healthy diet contains fatty fish once a week, organ meat a few times a year, occasional or daily eggs and dairy, and a small cut of white meat. Militant vegans that want other people to sacrifice health in order to "save the planet" can feck off.

Most of this is nonsense.

The bit about 150-200g of protein as well. That's two protein shakes, two cups of beans and regular food.

 

[Raoul]

Wasn't this debunked?

A long time ago.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

A long time ago.

I thought so. Even googling it now, it seems to be dismissed by the few sources I looked at as internet hokum, with the same amount of credibility as Marilyn Manson's removed ribs.

 

[RedSky]

Protein is pretty easy in a vegan diet. Tahini alone has 17 grams in 100g.

 

[sebsheep]

Wasn't this debunked?

That poster really needs to start putting white text on their posts in this thread.

 

[BD]

That poster really needs to start putting white text on their posts in this thread.

Do you eat lots of soy then, since you're a vegan? If yes, you can guess my next question...

 

[groovyalbert]

There's no natural way to get vitamin B12 once cutting out fish/meat. I have a few friends (all men, interestingly) who are vegan/veggie and they've been diagnosed with B12 deficiencies and are now taking supplements.

 

[711]

My biggest gripe with the militant vegans/zealots is that a vegan diet is suboptimal for health, and that they want to impose their preferences on other people through policies such as taxation on (healthy cuts of) meat. A green MP here recently said X meat is cheaper than vegetables/fruit and "that's just wrong!", omitting the fact that the meat she was referring to was made out of mechanically separated meat (the kind pet food is made of) and is beneficial in preventing waste. The vast majority of vegetables are way, way cheaper than meat.

I recall seeing vegan propaganda in primary school, supposedly humans are meant to be plant eaters, here's a picture of herbivore and carnivore intestine tracts! Anyone that's thought about this critically, should know that it's bunk and the data they use to show that veganism is great for health is cherry picked.

I was vegan for a few months and vegetarian for 3+ years in uni. The reason being I wasn't training when I was vegan and I wasn't barbell training when I was a vegetarian and there are legitimate environmental and animal welfare issues for it.

You just can't get enough protein to be strong (recover from resistance training) with a vegan diet. And anyone that's looked at the leucine content of a slice bread (0,11g per 35g) and that of a any cut of lean meat (2,5-3g per 100g) knows why. The vegan propaganda in this regard (game changers film) pisses me off. None of the "vegan athletes" got big and strong with a vegan diet (they switched to it after being meat eaters that got them there) and they don't show they're eating a metric shit ton of concentrated plant protein to meet their protein requirements. Also none of those supposed athletes are competitive at anything.

Animal products are healthy. They're incredibly nutrient dense, contain vitamin B12, vitamin D, A and omega 3 fatty acids (the latter 2 which can be produced by the body but not in optimal amounts for everyone).

Humans are meant to eat animals and can survive on a vegan diet. Any study comparing vegans vs omnivores isn't taking into consideration veganism is a dietary intervention.

We know that being strong and resistance training is important for health, so telling a 70 year old they should eat less meat when their protein requirements are quite high is a harmful thing to do.

High intake of soy can literally make men impotent and give them tits. There's really no way to get 150-200g of protein without going through a jar of plant protein every week.

A healthy diet contains fatty fish once a week, organ meat a few times a year, occasional or daily eggs and dairy, and a small cut of white meat. Militant vegans that want other people to sacrifice health in order to "save the planet" can feck off.

Bodybuilder worried about impotence shock. Who would have guessed?

 

[NotThatSoph]

Nimai Delgado has been vegan since 2014. He was raised vegetarian, and has never eaten meat in his life.