Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[Revan]

And yet Ronaldo is the one who played with 3 Balon D'or winners and since Ronaldo has left Madrid they've won a UCL and reached the semi finals. Since Messi left Barca they've ended up in the Europa league twice.

Again as usual the whole Argentina being stacked argument relies on mentioning 7 names that can only play in 3 positions, you forgot Lavezzi and Pastore btw.... Portugals second best player was actually Pepe who was a better Centre Back than anyone Messi had during his Argentina career.

I think that peak Xavi and Iniesta rate higher than peak Benzema and Modric. I don’t think it is even debatable.

Barca was grossly mismanaged in the last few years so they are not as good as Madrid. But then, they weren’t great in Messi’s last couple of years.

I do not see how Argentina vs Portugal is even a debate. Before Messi played for Argentina, they had 4 World Cup finals. Before Ronaldo played for Portugal, they had qualified 3 times for the World Cup. Repeat after me, Argentina had more final appearances than Portugal had World Cup appearances. There is a significant difference in the quality and football tradition of those 2 countries. Not winning the World Cup for Argentina was a failure, qualifying to World Cup for Portugal was a success.

Pepe was a better CB than any that Messi played with, but Ayala, Heinze, Samuel and Otamendi were pretty good player, the last two borderline world class.

Saying that, I think it is obviously clear who has been the better and greater player. Messi is better than Ronaldo at everything except headers and weaker foot. He is as good if not better at scoring, as high-impact, but far better at playmaking and assisting. And way more decorated.

 

[the_cliff]

Include Figo in the NT and we have 4 ballon dor nobodies that CR7 had to carry! What mentality, indeed the god of clutch

They talk about it as if Ronaldo was playing with bums. Even at United, the disrespect that Rooney/Tevez get is crazy. Rooney took us to another UCL final literally 2 seasons after Ronaldo left...

Unfortunately it's one of the main reasons why Rooney/Benzema/Modric are so underrated because Ronaldo fans need to justify Ronaldo so much that they like to undermine just how good those players were.

Modric has performed better than Ronaldo in the world cup with a much more AVERAGE team than Ronaldo's Portugal......

 

[sullydnl]

Yep, it's a human nature thing - what we experience must be the most impactful. It's impossible to recreate the intensity of the experience of watching these players or growing up with these players when you are at your most impressionable. That works both ways, for the oldies refusing to contemplate anyone being greater than Pele or Maradona, or the young ones unable to imagine anyone being as great as Messi or Ronaldo.

It's also why (whether you agree with it or not) the opinion that Messi is the greatest will only increase over the coming years.

In 30 years' time there will be few people who remember actually watching the 1986 World Cup. Meanwhile there will be a slew of adults with nostalgia for Messi's long career, holding him as the standard to which any subsequent super-human players are compared.

 

[Gio]

Di Stefano has been regarded as greatest player in club football for many years, until Messi/Ronaldo came. Even so, they’re not much difference in terms of their respective club career in their respective era. In my opinion the edge Ronaldo has over Di Stefano, is when we compared their international career. Di Stefano has almost nothing for his country/countries, while Ronaldo has 2 trophies (1 Euro), Euro top scorer/golden boot, and being all time international top scorer as well.

Agree that it's internationally where Di Stefano falls short of the big 3. But that's a bit harsh - he scored 6 goals in 4 starts for Argentina when they won the Copa America. Then he was banned for his prime, so it's a hard one to compare (and again shows how limited it is trying to rank players across widely different eras).

 

[the_cliff]

I think that peak Xavi and Iniesta rate higher than peak Benzema and Modric. I don’t think it is even debatable.

Barca was grossly mismanaged in the last few years so they are not as good as Madrid. But then, they weren’t great in Messi’s last couple of years.

I do not see how Argentina vs Portugal is even a debate. Before Messi played for Argentina, they had 4 World Cup finals. Before Ronaldo played for Portugal, they had qualified 3 times for the World Cup. There is a significant difference in the quality and football tradition of those 2 countries.

Pepe was a better CB than any that Messi played with, but Ayala, Heinze, Samuel and Otamendi were pretty good player, the last two borderline world class.

It's funny you mention Modric, since he's had better performances than Ronaldo in the world cup. Or were Croatia a far better team than Portugal ?

Because it doesn't matter, historic success doesn't guarantee future results. If Ronaldo retires, I suppose Portugal are going to go back into obscurity then ? Since 98 Portugal have been main stayers in top competitions especially the world cup, the reason they've qualified for more is down to the format change in 98 more than the emergence of Ronaldo. Portugals best ever WC performance came when Ronaldo wasn't even their best player.

Is Zidane the greatest player ever because before him they had never won a world cup ? What about Iniesta and Spain ?
I suppose Greece are more likely to win a major international trophy over Belgium in the next 10 years, you know since they have history of winning but Belgium don't....

 

[Oranges038]

Yeah, I’ve just realised I’ve misread the majority of this thread. I incorrectly assumed Sporting was on the wind up.

Here’s the same for Portugal’s last match:

Porto

Man United
Porto
Man City
Dortmund

Man City
Wolves
Porto

Man United
Benfica
Athletico Madrid

Not including Cancelo (City) and Leao (AC Milan).

Dias, Cancelo, Neves, Silva, Fernandes, Leao… Portugal’s team contains more talent than Argentina’s. I would go as far as saying one Portugal’s biggest weaknesses is Ronaldo himself.

Many teams had a player that had to be carried somewhat defensively:

Argentina - Messi
France - Mbappe
Croatia - Modric
Brazil - Neymar

But those players’ overall contribution far outweighed whatever defensive capabilities that were lost. That was not the case with Portugal and Ronaldo (hence him getting dropped). Ten Hag came to the same conclusion in a matter of days.

I take it that Sporting is Portuguese. I’m don’t understand why you would talk down your national team which has produced awesome talent throughout Ronaldo’s entire career… including a side that won a European Championship final FOR Ronaldo as he looked on as an elevated cheerleader. Why is a Portuguese person making out that the reason Ronaldo never became a world champion is because he was unlucky to be born Portuguese? He played in FIVE World Cups. Literally no one on the planet has had more opportunities to win a World Cup than he has.

Well, aside from Messi, who's also played in 5 and 2 finals. And just yesterday he became the player to play most games ever at a WC finals.

 

[Black Adder]

Saying that winning for Portugal is more difficult than doing it for a team that is a regular contender in every major international trophy is not clutching at straws…it’s a literal fact.

Unless you choose to ignore it or simply don’t understand the game.

Going by that logic, winning Champions League for RM was easier since they already had 9 before Cristiano came while Barcelona had only 1 before Messi came, therefore Messi CL achivements are more difficult than Cristianos.

 

[Swoobs]

It's funny you mention Modric, since he's had better performances than Ronaldo in the world cup. Or were Croatia a far better team than Portugal ?

Because it doesn't matter, historic success doesn't guarantee future results. If Ronaldo retires, I suppose Portugal are going to go back into obscurity then ? Since 98 Portugal have been main stayers in top competitions especially the world cup, the reason they've qualified for more is down to the format change in 98 more than the emergence of Ronaldo. Portugals best ever WC performance came when Ronaldo wasn't even their best player.

Is Zidane the greatest player ever because before him they had never won a world cup ? What about Iniesta and Spain ?j

According to this CR7 cult logic, Laudrup and Milan Baros > CR7 in the international stage beyond easily. Won the same trophy, both Laudrup and Baros performed better too with historically FAR weaker national teams. Well actually Laudrup may really be better regardless

 

[RedStarUnited]

Friendly? Because this never happened in official games. I'm not even sure Isco has ever played in a game where both scored....

Their version of the charity shield and it was at Camp Nou. Ronaldo scored a lovely goal and then got sent off.

https://youtube.com/shorts/yy-KTajIwkU?feature=share

 

[Fabio Rochemback]

Yes, he is. While it's kind of silly that the result of a penalty shootout will sway a lot of people's opinions that way, his performances at this tournament have absolutely further strengthened his claim as the GOAT.

 

[VorZakone]

Yes, he is. While it's kind of silly that the result of a penalty shootout will sway a lot of people's opinions that way, his performances at this tournament have absolutely further strengthened his claim as the GOAT.

Yup. I thought that Sporting poster made a fair point about Martinez having a vital save at the end, just like Eder provided a vital goal for Portugal in 2016. Small margins.

But this was not a World Cup in which Messi was freeriding off his teammates. He was still Argentina's key player by far providing the necessary threat upfront. He had an individually great World Cup.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Agree that it's internationally where Di Stefano falls short of the big 3. But that's a bit harsh - he scored 6 goals in 4 starts for Argentina when they won the Copa America. Then he was banned for his prime, so it's a hard one to compare (and again shows how limited it is trying to rank players across widely different eras).

Fair enough he did win Copa with Argentina being competition 2nd top scorer, and was banned during his prime. But one could only speculate how good he could have been. He did fail in 2 WC campaign afterwards though (58 & 62). So it’s more of a case of “could have been” rather than the actual achievements.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

What's unreal for me is, Messi was head and shoulders above Ronaldo on most seasons Ronaldo won the Balon d'Or. But the CL swayed it.

I watched every game for Ronaldo and Messi in their careers for La Liga and CL when the games didn't conflict

Modric, Benzema both won it too, so it wasn't Ronaldos individual brilliance, he had the best team around him that even scored in most finals before he did.

I think Messi should have 9 or 10 even with Ronaldo.

I don't know what to say about that, it's not like Ronaldo won underserved Ballon D'ors. The competition was so high between them in their prime that it was very difficult to choose in some cases. Ronaldo had seasons when he scored 60+ goals.
The fact that Modric(imo a little underserved) and Benzema won them after Ronaldo's departure does not detract from his merits. Messi had a great team around him also that helped him shine.

Overall, I think the difference between them is not that big but overall Messi is the better player, no doubt. Also, maybe Messi has another year or two left to achieve even more, whereas Ronaldo seems finished.

 

[Stacks]

The debate is over. This will be a very short and cordial thread with everyone just agreeing.

Form an orderly queue, one post per person. Thank you and goodnight.

I'm in. But you will get some 60 year olds saying "but Diego did xyz with abc"

 

[Hughes35]

It was always between him and R7 for me and I've always heavily been on the Ronaldo bus but even I have to change my mind after the past few months.

Still a huge Ronaldo fan but he's done himself no favours recently and Messi has had a really good tournament, won it, scored two in the final and took his penalty in the shoot out.

I'm 33 so incredibly lucky to see Messi and Ronaldo through their entire careers. Both insane players.

 

[Ibrahimorich]

I agree that he has surpassed Lance Armstrong as the greatest sports user of HGH

 

[Josh 76]

It’s the way he won it that makes it that big special. 7 goals, great assists, man of the Match In most games and scoring 2 in the final was the icing on the cake. I’ve always been in the Maradona camp, but he’s definitely done it all now.

 

[Lay]

Saying that Ronaldo had the better team us not true considering that Messi played more than half of his career with peak Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets, the best midfield ever. He also had it attack as his partners Eto’o (arguably the best striker back then) and Henry, followed by Neymar and Suarez (the two best players not called Messi or Ronaldo). Then at Paris had Mbappe and Neymar.

Even for Argentina, for most of his career he had better teammates than Ronaldo. Portugal’s second best player was Nani, while Argentina has Aguero, Higuain, Milito, Tevez, Di Maria etc.

Ironically, this might have been the only tournament where Portugal had a genuinely better team than Argentina (In players quality).

Milito with his 4 goals for Argentina and Tevez with his 13 goals for Argentina really did help a lot.

 

[Revan]

Fair enough he did win Copa with Argentina being competition 2nd top scorer, and was banned during his prime. But one could only speculate how good he could have been. He did fail in 2 WC campaign afterwards though (58 & 62). So it’s more of a case of “could have been” rather than the actual achievements.

Sure, but on the other side, his club achievements were the best till Cristiano/Messi. I think he is in that tier with Cristiano and Cruyff, so somewhere 4-6 (personally have Cristiano as 4th, just ahead of Di Stefano and Cruyff).

If he had success in World Cups, he would have been in Messi/Pele/Maradona tier. He essentially was Pele before Pele, but without the World Cups.

 

[giorno]

Their version of the charity shield and it was at Camp Nou. Ronaldo scored a lovely goal and then got sent off.

https://youtube.com/shorts/yy-KTajIwkU?feature=share

Aaaaah. Damn my memory is shot. I remember their goal being an own goal

 

[Swoobs]

Sure, but on the other side, his club achievements were the best till Cristiano/Messi. I think he is in that tier with Cristiano and Cruyff, so somewhere 4-6 (personally have Cristiano as 4th, just ahead of Di Stefano and Cruyff).

If he had success in World Cups, he would have been in Messi/Pele/Maradona tier. He essentially was Pele before Pele, but without the World Cups.

How about Beckenbaur (imo the best European player ever), had European Cups and German leagues, World Cup, Ballon Dors and most importantly a GOAT tier defender AND playmaker/dribbler.

The only defender in most top 10 GOATs list must mean something.

He transcented his natural position, just like Maradona, Messi and Pele did, just that from the other side of the pitch. Outperformed one of the best goal machines in history in Muller too

 

[fallengt]

Messi is undisputed GOAT but for Argentines, Maradona is still their saint, I think

 

[el3mel]

I'd say you can find fault in moving to PSG. But probably in such a dominant team without any real challenge, he could pace himself better and perform better in the World Cup

No fault in it imo. PSG are still a big team in modern football.

 

[Zehner]

I agree that he has surpassed Lance Armstrong as the greatest sports user of HGH

Yeah he really should have refused his medication just to prove a point to you.

 

[That_Bloke]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I'm all for freedom of expression but I really wish that could be deported.

This GOAT stuff is just another example of the cult of the individual that we see pervading all areas of society. In the 90s and 00s I truly don’t recall this constant back and forth debate about GOATs, not just in football but in basketball too.

It's always been around, you just didn't hear about it that much.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Just a shame he'll hold the mantle for just a few years as his successor was on the pitch today.

Come on now

 

[General_Elegancia]

How about Beckenbaur (imo the best European player ever), had European Cups and German leagues, World Cup, Ballon Dors and most importantly a GOAT tier defender AND playmaker/dribbler.

The only defender in most top 10 GOATs list must mean something.

He transcented his natural position, just like Maradona, Messi and Pele did, just that from the other side of the pitch. Outperformed one of the best goal machines in history in Muller too

He is in everyone's top 10 lists and he is undoubtedly the best non-attacker of all time. A complete footballer like him will be not forgotten.

 

[That_Bloke]

I’ve leaned Ronaldo in the GOAT debate for a long time, but not any longer. Messi has separated himself from the pack.

He entered the very small circle of the football gods. Up there, there's no ranking.

 

[redcucumber]

Messi is undisputed GOAT but for Argentines, Maradona is still their saint, I think

Messi went to Spain when he was 13 so that'll definitely have some influence when appreciating their respective statuses in Argentina. Maradona also had that loveable rogue, relatable and fallible man of the people personality.

 

[Zehner]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Absolutely insane. Wonder what @Amar__ has to say about this!

 

[fallengt]

Messi went to Spain when he was 13 so that'll definitely have some influence when appreciating their respective statuses in Argentina. Maradona also had that loveable rogue, relatable and fallible man of the people personality.

The infamous "The hand of God" as well. The world sees it as cheating but for them it came straight from a fairy tale.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

To be replaced by Mbappe one day probably

Different type of players. Mbappe v Ronaldo would be more apt. Personally I can't put Ronaldo in the same bracket as players like Messi, Maradona or Pele. Way different skill sets in what I enjoy more in a player. Mbappe the same which isn't to say he's not a great player.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Different type of players. Mbappe v Ronaldo would be more apt. Personally I can't put Ronaldo in the same bracket as players like Messi, Maradona or Pele. Way different skill sets in what I enjoy more in a player. Mbappe the same which isn't to say he's not a great player.

I think so. That's the level Mbappe can aim for. Although Ronaldo all the bashing aside achieved a phenomenal level so it won't be easy.

Messi is different. It'll be awhile before we see a player like him. Even at 35 yesterday barring 10 minutes where lost the ball a few times and was getting frustrated he was involved and productive/ influential throughout the 120 minutes. Mbappe like Ronaldo is a lethal final third player so I can see a lot of similarities (except for heading)

 

[That_Bloke]

Just a shame he'll hold the mantle for just a few years as his successor was on the pitch today.

A bold claim.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

well yeah I’m sure someone somewhere in a pub or summink had some casual chats about who’s the best but it’s on the ride and pervasive and toxic in discussions like never before thanks to soshulmeeja

Yeah the fact that so many people across the internet / social media, get so worked up and heated when debating who the mythical 'GOAT' is in whatever sport, day after day, month after month etc., in many cases I'm sure getting themselves banned from whatever forums / platforms they're on as well, just seems farcical to me. You see comical exchanges where people get so angry that they cannot convince either other their favourite player is the undisputed GOAT (of course there's no such thing), and just cannot enjoy the fact that those players had an amazing career.

It tennis, I've seen people getting banned and creating multiple accounts on YouTube, reddit etc. to make the exact same arguments that their favourite player is the GOAT. As toxic as debates between fanboys / fangirls of modern day big 3 players have been, the Graf vs. Seles debates on the women's side have been on a whole different level.

I spend a lot of time in the US, and I had to avoid shows such as First Take / the Undisputed (as entertaining as Shannon Sharpe is) after a while, with their obsession with GOAT debates in basketball in-particular (there seemed to be almost daily Jordan vs. Lebron debates and regular all-time top 10 segments) and also the NFL (although the NFL segments are generally better than the NBA ones because more active NFL teams move the needle). When they branched out and discussed other topics, those not involving Lebron, Brady etc., the segments were usually more enjoyable.

 

[ExoduS]

Just to remind everyone that this thread is to celebrate Messi, not about bringing other legends from the past and giving them "GOAT" arguments. There are no more arguments for others as GOATs, only subjective opinions.

When Pele and Maradona played (especially Pele) game was still amateur. When Maradona played, game elevated to a more serious competition but you could still smoke cigs and play. Today you can barely skip a training session and be ready for the game.

 

[Andrade]

Hardly. They competed in the final: Mbappe at his physical prime with the best french generation sorrounding him against Messi, not at his physical prime sourrounded by good players but no comparison to the french. And that would be a stain that will never go away IF (big if) someday there is a debate. Mbappe will have to work hard even yo be he best of his generation with halaand

Haaland is a monster, but the big question mark with him is whether or not he will customarily deliver in massive games, because he hasn't played in any thus far. With Mbappe, we already know that he's a Billy Big-Time with bells on.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

It's hard to argue against it even deep down Piers know who is the Goat.

 

[Infra-red]

I don't want to get into the Messi/Ronaldo/Maradona/Pele debate, but I think last night's victory will probably put Messi over the top in the eyes of the majority of fans. In the years to come, Messi as the greatest of all time will likely become the settled view (assuming Mbappé doesn't eclipse him of course).

 

[Jaae]

Anyone trying to edge Ronaldo into the Messi-Pele-Maradona debate is an absolute cringe merchant.