[VP89]

I replied to that post because we all watch same games and we all know how well we have done in league. So my assumption is no one thinks cup run alone proves anything, it's always taken along with league form.

Also no, Jose 2nd season was poor performance wise, especially in second half. Our underlying numbers were very poor, second half of the season was such a drag.

Except the post I referred to was resting on cup runs in isolation. And my reply was to cups in isolation.
And yes, sorry I forgot you hated Jose to the bone, where an 81 point season was actually not good. I know it was boring, but that was his style, like it or lump it.

Anyway lets move on, this is the Sancho thread (for the 2nd time).

 

[roonster09]

Except the post I referred to was resting on cup runs in isolation. And my reply was to cups in isolation.
And yes, sorry I forgot you hated Jose to the bone, where an 81 point season was actually not good. I know it was boring, but that was his style, like it or lump it.

Anyway lets move on, this is the Sancho thread (for the 2nd time).

You can't keep taking pathetic cheap shots and then ask me to move on. I forgot you were one of those Jose boys, his piss smells like perfume for some of you, so not surprising.

My judgement has nothing to do with Jose love or hate, go and check how bad second half was or how bad our underlying numbers were that season.

 

[NoPace]

Rumours of a potential return to Dortmund

I could see swapping him for Malen (and 20M or so) to be the backup #9, then signing a proper bigger striker (Kane, Kolo Muani, Ramos, Osimhen) to start:

Rashford(Garnacho)-#9(Malen)-Antony(Amad)

with Martial sticking around because he can't really be shifted and Ten Hag rates him and if we get half a season from him that's useful, Bruno gets some minutes on the right as we sign another #8 to compete with Eriksen, and we've got 4 options up top including Rashford, 3 on the right (Antony, Amad, Bruno) and 4 on the left (Rashford, Garnacho, Malen, Martial).

 

[VP89]

You can't keep taking pathetic cheap shots and then ask me to move on. I forgot you were one of those Jose boys, his piss smells like perfume for some of you, so not surprising.

My judgement has nothing to do with Jose love or hate, go and check how bad second half was or how bad our underlying numbers were that season.

Jesus, calm down. I wasn't taking a cheap shot, I just remember you had a distain for Jose. There's no need to elevate it by saying his piss is perfume for me. I'm so sorry I thought his side that hauled 81 points over the course of a season was any good. It must have been a criminal insinuation.

Christ maybe you need a bit of a break, youve been rattled by me just saying cup runs alone can't be the sign of whether a team is functional or not.

For the nth time, it's a Sancho thread. Unless your reply is Sancho related I probably won't read it.

 

[roonster09]

Jesus, calm down. I wasn't taking a cheap shot, I just remember you had a distain for Jose. There's no need to elevate it by saying his piss is perfume for me. I'm so sorry I thought his side that hauled 81 points over the course of a season was any good. It must have been a criminal insinuation.

Christ maybe you need a bit of a break, youve been rattled by me just saying cup runs alone can't be the sign of whether a team is functional or not.

For the nth time, it's a Sancho thread. Unless your reply is Sancho related I probably won't read it.

Rattled

 

[giggs-beckham]

And to come to this belief you think that almost the entirety of our fanbase is wrong in their opinion?

You disagree thats fine. And I don't believe opinions are wrong

 

[Bondi77]

Hey, come on. He will get all the sprint coaching he could ever want at United. We had structured sprint coaching at my Sunday league team 30 years ago.

I am not talking about running with a pint of beer in your hand

 

[Ted Lasso]

Think a lot of the criticism is fair, especially given the price tag. But realistically you have to give him a lot more time to improve and with managerial consistency finally.

 

[OrcaFat]

I am not talking about running with a pint of beer in your hand

Ha, never spilled a drop!

But seriously there are loads of sprint drills, different ones: Standing starts, flying sprints, push up starts, stop and turn, sprint and back peddle, all across various distances and with different repeat and recovery patterns. We did one called falling down sprint where you stand straight and fall forward and go into a sprint from there. Brutal (especially if you’re not fit!) but has to be done. As Roy Keane often says, football is basically a running game.

Maybe you were joking but I don’t think an athletics coach would bring anything they aren’t already doing. Sancho doesn’t look as sharp as we’d like but I think it is partly mental. The physical element might yet be improved as well of course. Here’s hoping.

 

[Rossa]

Is he really too slow to play out wide? Is he slower than Grealish? Mata was good at his best out wide, as was Silva. None of these players were fast. Mahrez isn’t faster. Sancho actually looks quicker. His biggest issue seems to be his indecisiveness.

 

[Rossa]

Think a lot of the criticism is fair, especially given the price tag. But realistically you have to give him a lot more time to improve and with managerial consistency finally.

You have to be realistic about these things.

 

[OrcaFat]

Is he really too slow to play out wide? Is he slower than Grealish? Mata was good at his best out wide, as was Silva. None of these players were fast. Mahrez isn’t faster. Sancho actually looks quicker. His biggest issue seems to be his indecisiveness.

I agree, pretty much. It’s not all about the actual top speed in mph, it’s also timing the sprint and fully committing to it. It’s a mental thing with Sancho. He’s not lightning quick but his basic speed is not the main problem. I think he can improve to the point where he “looks” faster. He is getting minutes now. As his confidence grows he should be able to shake off some of the apparent sluggishness.

 

[Rossa]

I agree, pretty much. It’s not all about the actual top speed in mph, it’s also timing the sprint and fully committing to it. It’s a mental thing with Sancho. He’s not lightning quick but his basic speed is not the main problem. I think he can improve to the point where he “looks” faster. He is getting minutes now. As his confidence grows he should be able to shake off some of the apparent sluggishness.

Definitely. He had great balance and agility, so he can use that to get a yard or two on his defender. He will never sprint away from Walker, but who will. He can, if receiving the ball in the right areas, make life really difficult for defenders, but he needs to stop over-thinking it.

 

[lex talionis]

Showed some good stuff and it was harsh to be subbed off, but I would like to see him take on the defender more often. There is ground to be won that he can win if he believed in himself more.

 

[Fortitude]

I don't know. Sancho was never a Vinicius Junior type of player who beats defenders with pace so if that was expected, then people should definitely adjust their expectations. Sancho is quick and has decent top speed when he receives a through ball for instance but he rarely uses it when dribbling. The best comparison is probably the older version of Messi who doesn't have the burst of pace anymore but dribbles through body feints and plays one twos to beat players. Sancho is obviously no Messi but he is great in tight spaces and at progressing the ball in crowded areas.

But I also think people have the wrong idea how a winger should play to a certain extent. Look at Liverpool's first goal against Tottenham for instance. Salah passes it back to Arnold instead of challenging the defender because he sees that a dribble would lead nowhere. Sancho would be criticized for always "passing it back" in that scene. I sometimes feel people want him to run down blind alleys and to play more headless. The times in which wingers challenged their fullbacks and then wipped one cross after another into the box are gone. Especially when you try to implement a possession oriented system like Ten Hag. Recycle the ball rather than risk losing it if there's not enough to gain. Usually there are saver options to progress the ball than dribbling. You do that until you find a situation in which it makes sense.

Good post.

 

[Cloud7]

Sancho going back to Dortmund in the summer would be the best move for all 3 parties in my opinion

 

[marktan]

Is he really too slow to play out wide? Is he slower than Grealish? Mata was good at his best out wide, as was Silva. None of these players were fast. Mahrez isn’t faster. Sancho actually looks quicker. His biggest issue seems to be his indecisiveness.

Grealish and Mahrez both have good acceleration, so they can turn away from a player quite quickly.

Sancho struggled with that even at Dortmund. I remember against PSG in the CL he tried to take on players a few times and failed each time. His game is more about tight turns and passes when he's already running at full speed, but at United against tighter defences he doesn't really get to counter attack as much as he did at Dortmund. The Mata comparison isn't a bad one in terms of play style.

 

[city-puma]

Harsh on those two, Mkhitaryan actually made a huge contribution to our Europa League win in his first season. He wasn't totally useless.

Yes, Mkhitaryan did great for us in the first season and then became suddenly out of squad in the first half of the second season. Then, swapped to Arsenal to get Sanchez. What’s going on?!

 

[Teja]

I don't know. Sancho was never a Vinicius Junior type of player who beats defenders with pace so if that was expected, then people should definitely adjust their expectations. Sancho is quick and has decent top speed when he receives a through ball for instance but he rarely uses it when dribbling. The best comparison is probably the older version of Messi who doesn't have the burst of pace anymore but dribbles through body feints and plays one twos to beat players. Sancho is obviously no Messi but he is great in tight spaces and at progressing the ball in crowded areas.

But I also think people have the wrong idea how a winger should play to a certain extent. Look at Liverpool's first goal against Tottenham for instance. Salah passes it back to Arnold instead of challenging the defender because he sees that a dribble would lead nowhere. Sancho would be criticized for always "passing it back" in that scene. I sometimes feel people want him to run down blind alleys and to play more headless. The times in which wingers challenged their fullbacks and then wipped one cross after another into the box are gone. Especially when you try to implement a possession oriented system like Ten Hag. Recycle the ball rather than risk losing it if there's not enough to gain. Usually there are saver options to progress the ball than dribbling. You do that until you find a situation in which it makes sense.

Ultimately most threat in modern games comes from isolating the wide player against the fullback and having him do something. Right now you can give Sancho all the 1v1s in the world and the best he can do is find a decent cutback pass.

You could have him play the Bruno role from wide but he doesn't have that killer ball.

You could hope he does what Salah / Mane do but he can't really cut in and shoot.

You could hope he does what Sterling / Grealish does but he doesn't have the dribbling skill.

So what does he do exactly? What specific situation in game suits him? The only thing I've seen him do consistently is if he has tons of space and time and the fullback underlaps he can usually find him. You're not going to get that in the PL.

To top it all off he's pretty light weight defensively, so his "press" just gets shrugged off leading to all sorts of problems when we're under the cosh.

 

[Teja]

United against tighter defences he doesn't really get to counter attack as much as he did at Dortmund

It's not even a United / team specific thing, it's mostly everyone has more space and time in the Bundesliga because every team there insists on playing that suicidal high line for some reason.

 

[RoyKeaneReborn]

Is he really too slow to play out wide? Is he slower than Grealish? Mata was good at his best out wide, as was Silva. None of these players were fast. Mahrez isn’t faster. Sancho actually looks quicker. His biggest issue seems to be his indecisiveness.

Agree too. In the game vs Villa, it was frustrating to see him run into good spaces down the flanks, but then keep cutting the ball back & allowing Villa's defence and bodies to re-group.

This seems to be the difference vis-a-vis Garnacho. Like the game against City, Garnacho will take on the fullbacks when he has space & whip in crosses and shots. Folks here have commented this is not really Sancho's style. But I think we had always thrived on a DNA & system historically with very direct wingers - Best, Coppell, Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Nani, Blomqvist, CR7 (when younger), Park (initial. He was brilliant for PSV as a winger too), Poborsky (limited). Even Becks who does not take on players (doesn't have to) was supremely effective by hugging the touchline & whipping in pinpoint crosses.

Sancho is still finding his feet and style to best contribute.

Desperately want to see him succeed here and not go down the path of Kagawa and Mikitryhan. The latter 2 were so great for Dortmund too, like Sancho.

 

[Bondi77]

Ha, never spilled a drop!

But seriously there are loads of sprint drills, different ones: Standing starts, flying sprints, push up starts, stop and turn, sprint and back peddle, all across various distances and with different repeat and recovery patterns. We did one called falling down sprint where you stand straight and fall forward and go into a sprint from there. Brutal (especially if you’re not fit!) but has to be done. As Roy Keane often says, football is basically a running game.

Maybe you were joking but I don’t think an athletics coach would bring anything they aren’t already doing. Sancho doesn’t look as sharp as we’d like but I think it is partly mental. The physical element might yet be improved as well of course. Here’s hoping.

I wasn't joking as he needs to do something and possibly a specialist sprinting coach would help.
He needs to up the intensity because if he cannot outpace a 37yo full back then I don't think he is going to do much at our club.

 

[Zehner]

Ultimately most threat in modern games comes from isolating the wide player against the fullback and having him do something. Right now you can give Sancho all the 1v1s in the world and the best he can do is find a decent cutback pass.

You could have him play the Bruno role from wide but he doesn't have that killer ball.

You could hope he does what Salah / Mane do but he can't really cut in and shoot.

You could hope he does what Sterling / Grealish does but he doesn't have the dribbling skill.

So what does he do exactly? What specific situation in game suits him? The only thing I've seen him do consistently is if he has tons of space and time and the fullback underlaps he can usually find him. You're not going to get that in the PL.

To top it all off he's pretty light weight defensively, so his "press" just gets shrugged off leading to all sorts of problems when we're under the cosh.

I don't think the bolded is true. Guardiola for instance tries to create numerical superiority on the wings so that the wide player isn't in a 1 on 1 situation. Napoli uses something you could describe as "early crosses between the lines" as an attacking pattern. There's not the one approach but dozen different ones that work better or worse based on the players you have.

Plus Sancho is definitely able to win one on ones. In the short clip of his game against Villa alone he won two or three one on ones which is a decent return. He's incredible at finding incisive passes between the lines and into the penalty box. But many English fans don't particularly like that probably out of stylistic preferences. I guess you don't watch much football outside of England either?

I can only recommend doing that. The best teams in the EPL have adopted either/both the Spanish/Dutch and German style. There's a reason for that.

 

[justsomebloke]

I don't think the bolded is true. Guardiola for instance tries to create numerical superiority on the wings so that the wide player isn't in a 1 on 1 situation. Napoli uses something you could describe as "early crosses between the lines" as an attacking pattern. There's not the one approach but dozen different ones that work better or worse based on the players you have.

Plus Sancho is definitely able to win one on ones. In the short clip of his game against Villa alone he won two or three one on ones which is a decent return. He's incredible at finding incisive passes between the lines and into the penalty box. But many English fans don't particularly like that probably out of stylistic preferences. I guess you don't watch much football outside of England either?

I can only recommend doing that. The best teams in the EPL have adopted either/both the Spanish/Dutch and German style. There's a reason for that.

The stats back that up. He both attempts take-ons more frequently and succeeds at a higher rate than either Rashford or Antony. Garnacho tries a lot more often, but also succeeds less frequently (though he still has a little bit higher figures for successful take-ons, but not much). All in all, you could make a case for Sancho being United's best attacker one-on-one. He is also the only United attacker with decent to strong offensive passing stats (not counting Bruno as an attacker here).

The point of criticism I think you could make (and which the stats won't tell us anything about very directly) is a shortage of confidence and ambition - too often, he seems to dawdle and then go for a safe but fairly unproductive option. His shooting stats do tell that story - very low volume of attempts, very high conversion rate. So high that it sort of points to a player who's probably passing up shooting opportunities he should have taken. Given his skill set, you probably don't want him taking defenders on as much as Garnacho or shooting as much as Antony, but it's hard not to feel there's a balance to be struck and that he needs to be a bit more ambitious, aggressive and confident to strike it. He should be impacting things maybe more or less like James Maddison, and he really isn't.

 

[Stacks]

I'd say you're a work in progress. Not dysfunctional anymore but prone to falling into old patterns now and then.



I get what you mean.

I understand why it may be difficult to accept his drop in performance but it could mostly be that he is in his own head and second guessing himself. I saw similar with Depay and when he went to Lyon he played more free and confidently

 

[Jeffthered]

All in all, you could make a case for Sancho being United's best attacker one-on-one. He is also the only United attacker with decent to strong offensive passing stats (not counting Bruno as an attacker here).

I don't understand how some people see this.

Sancho has been a major disappointment and next season is critical for him. If there's no improvement he will be sold, rightly so.

His game lacks any identity, authority or cohesion. It's almost as if he needs to play angry now, because the games are passing him by.

And where would Jadon Sancho go if he leaves Manchester United?

 

[Zed is not dead]

Sancho is basically a Bernardo Silva type player, and like with most of our players, the Caf always seems to judge players based on what they expect rather than what they do or are useful for.
We want direct wingers because we think it’s still 2006 and you can just run down the wings playing a 4-4-2. Same reason why Antony is over-criticized here.

You can also add to that fact that United is among a very few clubs with Real Madrid and Bayern where no matter the state of the club, there is always huge pressure and huge scrutiny on everything a player does and this affects their ability to play their game.

I’ll use Rodrygo as an example. It was always clear as day he had loads of talent, and was a very intelligent player. However it took him a very long time to start being confident and delivering on a regular basis (it also helps to learn with Benzema) while on the other side Vinicius was a super confident headless chicken until he learned to make the right decision at the right time.
Sancho is getting there, he’s getting his head right, getting more involved in games

 

[justsomebloke]

I don't understand how some people see this.

Sancho has been a major disappointment and next season is critical for him. If there's no improvement he will be sold, rightly so.

His game lacks any identity, authority or cohesion. It's almost as if he needs to play angry now, because the games are passing him by.

Ams where would Jadon Sancho go if he leaves Manchester United?

"See" doesn't enter into it - it's stats. Which doesn't mean there aren't any problems with his game. Which is why I'm making largely the same point as you in my last paragraph.

 

[Cassidy]

"See" doesn't enter into it - it's stats. Which doesn't mean there aren't any problems with his game. Which is why I'm making largely the same point as you in my last paragraph.

Another example of stats not telling the full story.

 

[justsomebloke]

Another example of stats not telling the full story.

You don't need examples for that. No one who understands the basic nature and current availability of football statistics think they tell the full story. But they do tell quite a lot of the story, including bits you would otherwise miss.

 

[Cassidy]

You don't need examples for that. No one who understands the basic nature and current availability of football statistics think they tell the full story. But they do tell quite a lot of the story, including bits you would otherwise miss.

Agree to disagree, they add context, but someone suggesting stats make a case for Sancho being United best attacker one-on-one obviously is not understanding stats.

 

[justsomebloke]

Agree to disagree, they add context, but someone suggesting stats make a case for Sancho being United best attacker one-on-one obviously is not understanding stats.

They add measurability and comparability for distinct, defined aspects of the game, which is more than context. If anything, what they add is the opposite of context. Context is what they don't add.

But I'll backtrack on the case for Sancho being United's best attacker one-on-one. I kind of meant that as an observation on the stats, but that's not how I worded it and I agree it doesn't really hold up, mainly for the reasons I alluded to in the other paragraph.

 

[stefan92]

It's not even a United / team specific thing, it's mostly everyone has more space and time in the Bundesliga because every team there insists on playing that suicidal high line for some reason.

Not every team does play a high line, and if you want to understand the reason why those who do do it, just look at how often Mane, who is used to deeper defenses in the PL, is caught offside in the BL.

It's simply not suicidal, but of course it opens and closes different spaces. A football pitch is simply to big to completely close it with 11 players, so you have to set priorities.

 

[Zehner]

Agree to disagree, they add context, but someone suggesting stats make a case for Sancho being United best attacker one-on-one obviously is not understanding stats.

Stats show you what you don't see out of subjectivity. Maybe you miss that Sancho gets past his defender because he doesn't do it in Vinicius Junior fashion. Some players accomplish the same.thing in a less spectacular fashion and get overlooked because of it.

 

[Cassidy]

Stats show you what you don't see out of subjectivity. Maybe you miss that Sancho gets past his defender because he doesn't do it in Vinicius Junior fashion. Some players accomplish the same.thing in a less spectacular fashion and get overlooked because of it.

I use stats all the time so I am well aware of their use.
No, you cannot make a viable case for Sancho being our best attacker one on one, no matter what some statistical observations may point to it. The game is not played in a vacuum, and if you know anything about statistics, you should know they throw up anomalies and outliers all the time.

 

[Bebestation]

How the hell is Sancho our best attacker

 

[justsomebloke]

It's not even a United / team specific thing, it's mostly everyone has more space and time in the Bundesliga because every team there insists on playing that suicidal high line for some reason.

Sancho however does not seem to me the kind of player to typically capitalise on that, at least he hasn't been in the PL. He's strikingly little involved in moving the ball into the attacking third, almost his whole impact is down low, in and around the penalty area.

 

[Zehner]

I use stats all the time so I am well aware of their use.
No, you cannot make a viable case for Sancho being our best attacker one on one, no matter what some statistical observations may point to it. The game is not played in a vacuum, and if you know anything about statistics, you should know they throw up anomalies and outliers all the time.

Over their entire careers, Sancho is at 2.9 successful take ons per 90, Antony at 2.2, Rashford at 1.95 and Garnacho at 1.92. Antony has the highest success rate with 55.3%, Sancho is second with 54.6%, Rashford third with 45.8% and Garnacho last with 27.0%. Where's the outlier?

 

[Cassidy]

Over their entire careers, Sancho is at 2.9 successful take ons per 90, Antony at 2.2, Rashford at 1.95 and Garnacho at 1.92. Antony has the highest success rate with 55.3%, Sancho is second with 54.6%, Rashford third with 45.8% and Garnacho last with 27.0%. Where's the outlier?

The one which points to Sancho being United best attacker one on one when he clearly isn't

 

[justsomebloke]

Over their entire careers, Sancho is at 2.9 successful take ons per 90, Antony at 2.2, Rashford at 1.95 and Garnacho at 1.92. Antony has the highest success rate with 55.3%, Sancho is second with 54.6%, Rashford third with 45.8% and Garnacho last with 27.0%. Where's the outlier?

These are PL 22/23, for comparison:

STAT	Rashford	Garnacho	Sancho	Antony	Martial	Kulusevski	Mahrez	Saka
NpxG	0.45	0.32	0.23	0.32	0.62	0.11	0.31	0.27
xAG	0.11	0.20	0.17	0.11	0.16	0.20	0.34	0.26
Shots	2.98	3.18	1.06	3.49	2.22	1.86	2.43	2.40
Goals/shot	0.19	0.13	0.29	0.08	0.20	0.05	0.11	0.15
Prog carries	2.49	4.97	3.86	4.61	1.33	3.82	3.96	5.06
Prog carrying dist	69.59	131.32	106.29	126.58	46.85	110.35	121.81	131.31
Carries into final1/3	1.51	4.37	1.67	3.10	1.33	2.06	2.64	2.46
Carries into pen area	1.58	3.97	2.20	1.52	0.59	2.11	2.15	2.33
Take-ons att	4.04	7.35	4.17	3.82	2.07	4.92	3.54	4.63
Sucessful take-ons	1.40	1.99	1.74	1.19	1.03	2.11	1.11	1.66
Take-on success%	34.6	27	41.8	31.0	50.0	42.9	31.4	36

Bold=top 15 percentiles for the players position, Italics= sub-50 percentiles