Club Sale | It’s done!

[2cents]

Love how the post by @2cents has gone unnoticed by the demands for proof

In fairness, nothing I posted presents smoking-gun evidence, but it does show why such evidence is unlikely to be forthcoming and also why suspicions of state involvement in this bid are not necessarily motivated by anti-Arab bigotry or racism, but rather have a solid foundation based on what is widely written about the Qatari economy.

 

[Raoul]

43% of wealth in 2022s figures.

So again an assumption...

Oil and Gas are a vast majority of Qatar’s income. Same as all the other gulf states. The only reason they are only at 70% in the present is because of a recent push across the region to diversify away from something that will one day go away. Before oil and gas Qatar was known for pearls, which wouldn’t be enough to sustain a developed country.

 

[roseguy64]

What's Jacob's said that's boiled everyone's piss?

It just appears he's confused two different companies called Nine Two. Nothing else he's said today has appeared wrong.

 

[buchansleftleg]

I’ll help you . SJ will take control of the club but it won’t have fully sold until September .

Exactly this...the wheels of administration, legal, contracts and regulatory bodies can take their sweet time to tick all the boxes...but the company direction will be being sorted out by the new owners as soon as possible.

I've seen massive organisations outline a merger over the course of a weekend. Needless to say it took months to get all the paperwork sorted out, but make no mistake, by the Sunday afternoon it was clear that the power dynamic had totally changed.

In about 90 days we will see a few "Thanks and goodbye to..." a number of people from the old regime.

 

[the_cliff]

Oil and Gas are a vast majority of Qatar’s income. Same as all the other gulf states. The only reason they are only at 70% in the present is because of a recent push across the region to diversity away from something that will one day go away. Before oil and gas Qatar was known for pearls, which wouldn’t be enough to sustain a developed country.

In 2022 Oil and Gas accounted for 38% of total GDP in Qatar.

The 70% figure is Oil and Gas account for Government funds. So yes if the state has funded Sheikh Jassims bid then it most probably came from Oil and Gas but again where is the proof that Sheikh Jassims investors are the state.

Again you're assuming that an Arab can only be rich from Hydrocarbons and be linked to the state.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

It's basically a no one wins kinda outcome for me, Qatar with their dodgy history (using those words lightly) but willing to wipe away all debt and improve our infrastructure or Jim Ratcliffe with his keeping the Glazers on for 3 years and taking out loans to buy the club with no promise of wiping the debt or improving the infrastructure and his history owning Nice.

I just want an owner willing to wipe the debt and update our infrastructure, it's realistically all we need in terms of investment, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be what we will end up getting whoever wins.

 

[Rocksy]

1. Rio leaks Qatar - he’s not known for hyperbole

2019

Following the 3-1 victory in Paris, Rio Ferdinand was ecstatic in the BT Sport studio. Almost in tears, Ferdinand was raving.
"Listen, Man United might not thank me but get the contract out, put it on the table. Let him sign it," said Rio. "Let him write whatever numbers he wants to put on there, given what he's done since he's come in. Ole's at the wheel, man. He's doing it. He's doing his thing. Man United are BACK."

2021

Take, for instance, his answer to the prospect of entering boardrooms as a club executive at some point. In 2019 Ferdinand met with Ed Woodward over the technical director role at Manchester United, and though nothing came of the talks it is easy to see what the 42-year-old could offer in that capacity.

“Maybe one day if the right opportunity came,” Ferdinand starts, before letting a grin spread. “I think I’d be fecking unbelievable at it.”

https://theathletic.com/2936593/202...d-player-pundit-influencer-sporting-director/

 

[Mickeza]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65921965

That’s the BBC article. None of it contradicts the Reuters article which never said exclusivity had been granted. As Stone has said - it was a non-denial denial. The only article tonight which contradicts what Reuters are saying is the Times stating Ratcliffe is the favourite.

 

[Sauxees Moi Hui]

Posting this again - I would trust Reuters.

BBC article does not contradict Reuters. Reuters said that Qatar and Glazers are negotiating exclusivity. BBC said that exclusivity is not yet in place - which is consistent with Reuters, because exclusivity is still being negotiated.

And again, negotiating exclusivity is a really big deal. Unless SJR disrupts these negotiations with a better offer, Qatar will have a binding signed agreement from the Glazers that they will not engage in discussions with any other party (including SJR) for some period certain. At that point, there will be every incentive to work expeditiously to get to a signed sale agreement before the exclusivity period expires.

 

[Kingofwinners]

I think the PGA LIV deal raised the bar in the sports washing league. If Quatar want to compete in that league they will want a prestigious win soon. i have no insight but I just think the stakes went up for them, so horrible to see the rotten Glazers luck out and collect more money from a bizarre and unpleasant global dynamic after mismanaging their own investment on an epic scale.

 

[Septoe]

I get what your questioning but Qatar has a lot of dodgy history to say the least and if we go by PSG's ownership, it wouldn't be as simple as them sitting back and not getting involved, I don't trust them enough not to.

 

[Laurencio]

1. I agree with this, he is connected to the state of course he is any billionaire in the world will have some connections to the state or other states it's how the world works. Elon Musk is in Italy right now meeting their pm... There's a difference with having a relationship with the state and being backed by the state however.

2. We don't even need that, It's why I'm not too bothered with whoever wins, if we continue to spend money the way we have over the last 5-6 years it's more than enough, we just need to spend it wisely and have a good system in place.

1. There is a difference, true enough. Based on this individuals position at the Qatari Islamic bank, family heritage, the strong "encouragement" of the Emir for "Qatari interests" to own the club, Jassim's comparably lack of apparent financial resources and the historic management of the Qatari economy that 2cents has posted about - I believe it to likely be a state-backed bid.

2. I agree with this, but I still think a lot of the enthusiasm amongst the fan-base is a result of an assumption that the Qatari government is behind this bid - with all that entails in terms of sponsorships and investment possibilities.

 

[croadyman]

Agreed. Every time positive Qatar news come out they pour cold water on it.

Whether it’s not wanting to see United with vast resources or being against Qatar the English media definitely DO NOT want Sheikh Jassim to win.

Oh yeah they are praying he doesn't win

 

[croadyman]

What’s more impressive are Jim’s fanboys still hanging on to the belief he is still in the race. There’s so much smoke that it’s impossible to breathe but they still try to convince themselves there’s no fire.

Yeah Lawton is his biggest cheerleader

 

[Raoul]

Again you're assuming that an Arab can only be rich from Hydrocarbons and be linked to the state.

That’s generally correct given that nearly all wealthy individuals in these countries have in some way sourced their wealth from Hydrocarbons by way of being born into autocratic ruling families. Remove the hydrocarbons and there would be very little wealth remaining. The only reason the gdp number is lowering in recent years is because all of the gulf states are scrambling to diversify away from oil and gas because they know it’s finite.

 

[USREDEVIL]

How do you even negotiate for exclusivity? What are you negotiating with? Sounds weird.

Hi, can we negotiate by ourselves?
Maybe. What you got?
Well i got my offer.
Yeah i already knew about that.'
So then no?
Maybe.

 

[Chief123]

The fact we are nearing the end game is the most pleasing aspect.

It doesn’t make a difference if this gets done now or another 2 months. Ultimately we’ve got a set budget we are allowed to spend due to the enforced FFP rule since last year locking it to 90% of revenue. Getting new owners in isn’t going to change that. The only thing that can change our budget for this window is player sales. I’d imagine the team that is in charge of recruitment and sales is going to be the same team in charge when the new owners come on board (for this transfer window at least).

So the best we can hope for is the takeover gets done regardless of timeframe and that we are able to move on some players in order to boost our budget.

We are going to have to ride the consequences of our poor spending in recent seasons for a couple more transfer windows at least I’d imagine.

 

[Bastian]

All the academic literature on the topic I’ve tried to read up on suggests that the distinction between public and private spheres in the Qatari economy is extremely blurred to the point of being meaningless, that formal institutions are created and assigned to members of the Royal family for the purpose of strengthening the bonds of rulership and maintaining an illusion of separation between the spheres, and that the ultimate authority who decides on the allocation of important positions and resources is the Emir. Some quotes and links:

"Power in Qatar is distributed in a top-down manner, that is, by the Emir who allocates key government, civil service and private company positions to members of his family and to tribal figures...In Qatar, there is no real separation between the state and the private interests of the ruling family..."Power remains uninstitutionalized. There is no meaningful distinction, either political or legal, between the person of the Emir and the institutions of the state"...the state is not autonomous from private interests. It is difficult to establish the extent of this due to the lack of public information." (p. 40-41 https://www.google.ie/books/edition...itions+to+good+governance&printsec=frontcover)​

​

"the lack of clear boundaries between personal sovereign wealth and public sovereign wealth in the Gulf muddies the neat picture of Gulf SWFs as simple portfolio investment vehicles. The lines between the wealth of the ruling families and the wealth of the nation have long been murky in the GCC states...A further complication is the tendency of some member of Gulf royal families to co-invest personal ‘private funds’ alongside the sovereign wealth fund that they personally oversee. This trend has been most visible in Qatar, where the Emir of Qatar invested in Barclays at the same time as the Qatar investment Authority (QIA)."​

​

(p. 111-112 https://www.google.ie/books/edition...conomic+power+of+the+gulf&printsec=frontcover)​

​

"The presence of ruling family members in the private sector makes the distinction between the public and private sectors in Qatar problematic. Since they support each other through public funds and public policies geared towards the best interests of these family members and local merchants, the distinction between public and private funds was also meaningless."​

​

(p. 163 - https://www.google.ie/books/edition...blic-private+partnerships&printsec=frontcover)​

​

"In Abu Dhabi and Qatar...ruling family members are in control of powerful companies that dominate the economy – either personally or through sovereign wealth funds...Merchant elites are now subservient to the ruling families and are obliged to adapt to the latter’s business priorities...Business interests in Qatar and the UAE are to a large extent protected by the close interconnection of often indistinguishable economic and political elites..."​

​

(p. 5 - www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publications/research/2016-11-03-ruling-families-business-gulf-kamrava-nonneman-nosova-valeri.pdf)​

​

"despite the existence of government institutions that “formally” appear to separate the rulers’ funds from those of the state, in practice, the lack of transparent budgets and financial reports, render these distinctions artificial. Even the appointment of the director of the Qatari Chamber of Commerce is determined by the ruler who invariably appoints an al-Thani family member. Since the business community is not able to elect its own leader to voice concerns to policy makers, the Chamber of Commerce, in effect, acts more “as [a] government agency than an independent social association”​

​

(p. 113 - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/dome.12093?saml_referrer)​

In summary, state owned. Excellent post.

 

[Waynne]

Posting this again - I would trust Reuters.

BBC article does not contradict Reuters. Reuters said that Qatar and Glazers are negotiating exclusivity. BBC said that exclusivity is not yet in place - which is consistent with Reuters, because exclusivity is still being negotiated.

And again, negotiating exclusivity is a really big deal. Unless SJR disrupts these negotiations with a better offer, Qatar will have a binding signed agreement from the Glazers that they will not engage in discussions with any other party (including SJR) for some period certain. At that point, there will be every incentive to work expeditiously to get to a signed sale agreement before the exclusivity period expires.

Wow thanks for that breakdown.

Sounds like we're really close then as Qatar will look to get the sale done asap in that exclusivity window.
Question is how long is that window?

 

[klayton88]

Oil and Gas are a vast majority of Qatar’s income. Same as all the other gulf states. The only reason they are only at 70% in the present is because of a recent push across the region to diversify away from something that will one day go away. Before oil and gas Qatar was known for pearls, which wouldn’t be enough to sustain a developed country.

Slightly off topic but you seem like you may be versed in this... Why does Venezuela have the largest proven oil reserves in the world yet it's one of the most impoverished areas in South America?

 

[the_cliff]

That’s generally correct given that nearly all wealthy individuals in these countries have in some way sourced their wealth from Hydrocarbons by way of being born into autocratic ruling families. Remove the hydrocarbons and there would be very little wealth remaining. The only reason the gdp number is lowering in recent years is because all of the gulf states are scrambling to diversify away from oil and gas because they know it’s finite.

So because the source and foundation of the wealth of the region at the start was hydrocarbons that means anyone who has wealth in the Middle East is connected to hydrocarbons ? Makes sense.

By that logic any billionaire in America made it through slavery, you know since Slavery was the foundation in which America's economy grew....

 

[Red the Bear]

The general population people of Qatar, UAE, Saudi, Quwait and others in that region would likely remove the royals in an instant. The point is our dear elected leaders in the UK and USA are keeping them in power. Fingers should be pointing at the culprits. They are just puppets sitting on the throne at our behest.

Qatar is very likely the dearest and nearest next to the USA for all sorts of reasons to the UK.

Not true at all, I'd say the general populace of those countries views their royals quite positively.

Dissenting views exist obviously but they tend to be the minority.

 

[MTF]

Here is an excerpt from a book published by a Qatari academic and critic of the country’s political system, title is “The People Want Reform In Qatar, Too”, and the author is Ali Khalifa Al-Kuwari. The whole thing is worth reading (bearing in mind his criticisms are necessarily mild) but the relevant bit in terms of the discussion here on the transparency (or potential lack thereof) of this deal, is:

​

“The principal observation agreed on by all those present at the Monday meetings (though known about and commented on prior to this initiative) is the concealment of information connected to public affairs in Qatar and the inability to publish anything related to the decision-making process that lies behind official pronouncements. Indeed, the majority of our speakers and commentators lacked precise information and are unaware of the reasons behind public policy choices and the incentives and justifications for the ruler’s commands.​

​

This ensures the Qatari people exist in a constant state of surprise at the options taken and the decisions made, as though the public policies and life-changing decisions enacted by the government were a private affair that regular citizens had no right to know about, let alone participate in…​

​

…The same approach is found in finance. The estimated national budget is never published in full. Even the current Advisory Council only has the right to examine estimated capital expenditure. The budget’s final account is top secret. No one may look at it. The same applies to the report of the state’s Audit Bureau (itself answerable to the executive), whose powers do not include examining certain incomes and expenditures of public monies because such data does not come under the authority of the Council of Ministers: It is excepted from their authority and any other form of public oversight.​

​

The same is true of the state’s public reserves, investments made with this money and the results of these operations. Citizens hear about Qatar’s massive international deals but have no idea if these benefit public finances or private interests. The size of the national debt is neither known nor published, nor the scale and composition of debts guaranteed by the state, which are estimated in the tens of billions of dollars. Reports from the International Monetary Fund’s International Institute of Finance indicate that a large part of the income from oil and gas does not appear in the relevant section of the national budget.”​

That's a very interesting testimony, thanks for sharing.

 

[Edgio]

How do you even negotiate for exclusivity? What are you negotiating with? Sounds weird.

Hi, can we negotiate by ourselves?
Maybe. What you got?
Well i got my offer.
Yeah i already knew about that.'
So then no?
Maybe.

It's pretty standard. One party's offer is closest to meeting the requirements, they ask to negotiate alone for a period as it's the most likely route to a deal. That request is either accepted or declined.

 

[Sauxees Moi Hui]

Wow thanks for that breakdown.

Sounds like we're really close then as Qatar will look to get the sale done asap in that exclusivity window.
Question is how long is that window?

Right. That is the question. Can be anything, really - whatever the parties negotiate.

But I don't think that either side would want the window to be too long. I would guess we're looking at something like a month or two.

 

[klayton88]

Guess it's Qatar for pre season next summer then

 

[croadyman]

Wow, Times going really hard in opposite direction here!

They must really truly believe this to be this bullish.

Maybe it’s Jim Rat ft The Glazers after all. If Glazers are staying in any capacity, they should really get moving on transfers and supporting ETH.

They’ll really need to win over the fans after this.

I am praying so hard they are gonna look like total prats and Lawton reputation is in mud

 

[Raoul]

So because the source and foundation of the wealth of the region at the start was hydrocarbons that means anyone who has wealth in the Middle East is connected to hydrocarbons ? Makes sense.

By that logic any billionaire in America made it through slavery, you know since Slavery was the foundation in which America's economy grew....

Western states are capitalist systems that have a broad diversity of companies in every imaginable sector that generate wealth for these countries. You can't compare that to religious theocracies or otherwise autocratic systems who are gifted a vast majority of their wealth because they happened to win the natural resource lottery. Obviously all the money on those countries go to the ruling class of royal families, which they can spend on everything from mega yachts to football clubs.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

What would Qatar investment offer really? Your already one of the highest spenders transfer fee wise and in wages. When Man City got taken over it was significant because they went from not being able to afford anyone, to launching bids for Kaka almost overnight. Its not like you need qatar to be able to do a 100m deal, or offer a 350k a week wage to entice a player.

I really dont understand what you think they will offer in the terms of the transfer market you couldn't do without them?

Or are you wanting the 200m transfer fee on a single payer and 1m a week to someone like Mbappe - the galactico PSG model basically?

Qatar or no Qatar, I dont think it matters all that much

Thats because you don't understand the sheer behemoth that is manutd. If we are freed from the shackles of glazers, and can flex our true financial might with 600million fans world wide, we can buy the entirely of la liga and play our youth.

 

[Keiro]

This is getting so tiresome. To the Pro-Qatari crowd, we get it, “oil me up, sign Mbappe and stick it to Citeh”. I’m not convinced by SJR either but let’s not pretend there’s no difference when it comes to the soul of the club we love. I don’t think most realize the seismic shift in how we’ll be perceived 3 years down the line under Qatari stewardship.

 

[Raoul]

Slightly off topic but you seem like you may be versed in this... Why does Venezuela have the largest proven oil reserves in the world yet it's one of the most impoverished areas in South America?

Not a Venezuela expert by any means, but it would seem that corruption is a massive factor there.

 

[croadyman]

Yeah I'm desperate for Qatar to be chosen as bidders but it's ridiculous to suggest that The Times aren't reliable. That's what the kids on the internet would call 'cope'.

Ineos are still in this race.

Yeah and I am about as pig sick about that as the likes of Delaney & Lawton are about Jassim winning

 

[croadyman]

Yea, its a reliable source. But the times have had all the big Ratcliffe briefs

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-want-to-buy-manchester-united-says-jim-ratcliffe-bjqk2bfrx

We know who is feeding Keegan every time he speaks. Worth considering the same with the times

Yeah Times = Ratcliffe, Mail = Jassim

 

[tenpoless]

What would Qatar investment offer really? Your already one of the highest spenders transfer fee wise and in wages. When Man City got taken over it was significant because they went from not being able to afford anyone, to launching bids for Kaka almost overnight. Its not like you need qatar to be able to do a 100m deal, or offer a 350k a week wage to entice a player.

I really dont understand what you think they will offer in the terms of the transfer market you couldn't do without them?

Or are you wanting the 200m transfer fee on a single payer and 1m a week to someone like Mbappe - the galactico PSG model basically?

Qatar or no Qatar, I dont think it matters all that much

For starter, just because United have spent so much doesnt mean they can keep spending that way or they will be successful that way. Not when the club is still in debt, lack of vision from owners (always appointing the wrong people which is basically burning money, until recently), owners taking dividends that should be reinvested back into the club. Youre right, United dont need money but they need owners that will let them spend what they earn, not leeches.

As much as I hate saying it, City despite them cheating, they are still a well run club when it comes into appointments. United only need that part and Glazers cant and will never provide it. Theyre here for the stocks market, enterprise value and dividends. Pure businessman.

 

[Rood]

In fairness, nothing I posted presents smoking-gun evidence, but it does show why such evidence is unlikely to be forthcoming and also why suspicions of state involvement in this bid are not necessarily motivated by anti-Arab bigotry or racism, but rather have a solid foundation based on what is widely written about the Qatari economy.

Suspicions of state involvement are fair, it's certainly possible - what I object to is people who say it must be the state and then start calling people naive etc for exploring other possibilities. This then usually leads to some form of patronising moral crusade.

It's absolutely clear to me that Sheikh Jassim has the capability (via family, his bank, his personal network or a combo of all 3) to finance this deal without state involvement.

After that, the question is, if it is a state bid then why hide it?

The likes of PSG, City and Newcastle for example are openly owned by state entities.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

That's my solace with this if Jassim wins. As long as he simply funds, allows the football people to do what they need to, give them to and only replace when it's clear they're not getting results then it's all good. We really just need investment in infrastructure and to clear the current debt.

Pretty much. And of the options between him and Ratcliffe it seems abundantly clear that Qatar are better positioned to do that.

 

[Sir Erik ten Hag]

It's basically a no one wins kinda outcome for me, Qatar with their dodgy history (using those words lightly) but willing to wipe away all debt and improve our infrastructure or Jim Ratcliffe with his keeping the Glazers on for 3 years and taking out loans to buy the club with no promise of wiping the debt or improving the infrastructure and his history owning Nice.

I just want an owner willing to wipe the debt and update our infrastructure, it's realistically all we need in terms of investment, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be what we will end up getting whoever wins.

So it means the debt is so astronomical that no one with a clean morale/history can pay it. If yes, he'd have appeared in the bidding rounds already.

 

[USREDEVIL]

It's pretty standard. One party's offer is closest to meeting the requirements, they ask to negotiate alone for a period as it's the most likely route to a deal. That request is either accepted or declined.

Ok that makes sense but that's not much of a negotiation. I suppose the only action comes from the seller letting the other party know so they have a chance to increase their bid.

 

[macheda14]

The only way you can reconcile the morality hit with being a continued fan of this club is that realistically football at the top level in the prem is going this way anyway. It’s had dirty money in it for ages (see Arsenal’s sponsors) most clubs will be bought out or heavily invested in by someone morally suspect. Liverpool and Spurs are most likely next.

I don’t want Qatar because our club’s stature and income is self sustainable to the point that we can spend as much as anyone (without owners bleeding us dry). But also we have no control over who owns us. I’ll still support us, but the love of the game as a whole has waned somewhat. Personally in my short life the era of Arse vs United was my favourite and that will never come back.

 

[Septoe]

So it means the debt is so astronomical that no one with a clean morale/history can pay it. If yes, he'd have appeared in the bidding rounds already.

Basically yeah, that's why I said a no win kinda situation, I don't think I will be happy with either owner, but out of the two i'm leaning towards Qatar.