Bruno is better than Ozil.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
In what fecking world? Are you actually being serious?
Honestly, if you feel we'd be better off without Bruno, that's fine.Who’s creating straw man arguments?
Someone said he is a match winner and history and stats show this…..So I went and looked how many times Bruno scored the winning goals, to add context. If the answer was 50 then I’m guessing you wouldn’t be opposed to that. So it’s the reality that you are opposed to.
You claimed Bruno was pivotal to Sporting winning multiple trophies, is it straw man to look into what those trophies were? And regards to pivotal, what happened to Sporting after he left? If United won the league in 20/21 and Bruno was ‘pivotal’ would you be saying yes but that was the covid season and it came a few months after the fans protested? Or would you be saying ‘he won us the league in 20/21’. Yet another ridiculous straw man since that season was a level playing field where everyone started and finished under the same conditions. Nobody puts an asterisk next to Man City’s name, but you want one against Sporting because it suits your agenda?
You then came back with a massive straw man which didn’t have anything to do with the discussion. You’d said Bruno was pivotal to Sporting winning multiple trophies. I looked at what those trophies were, and what happened after he left, to give context to his pivotal impact. You came back with Shearer and Kane? I have absolutely no idea why? They are individually unquestionable due to tangible stats like goals and assists and performance levels. They are/were proven match winners? Using two complete outliers to counter an argument on something unrelated is as strawman as it gets. In addition we don’t even know how spurs will cope without Kane yet? Then there’s Jonathan Greening thrown in for good measure.
This sentence is a favourite of mine…”trophies aren't really a benchmark for how good a player is, but you can't really say that Bruno is a letdown when he has won trophies in every club he has played for. Strange logic really.”
Basically what you’re suggesting here is don’t judge other players on what they have won, but judge Bruno on what he has won favourably. Strange logic indeed….backed up with incorrect facts….can you tell me what Trophies Bruno won at Novvora, Udinese or Sampdoria?
The reality is that the only context that you want is context that is pro Bruno, and beyond chances created there isn’t really anything exceptional in his history. So then you want to ignore performances, goals, assists, match winning moments, trophies (except the few , sorry, multiple second rate trophies he’s won) etc etc.
Perhaps the best bit is the irony of calling someone’s argument of where Sporting were before and after Bruno as ‘Strawman’ before finishing your own post with
“multiple managers both at United and at International level rate Bruno, and really that's all that counts, here's hoping they carry on rating Bruno as I dread to think where we'd be without him”
Yeah it’s me who’s had a mare
But realistically when he has been by far and away United's and one of the league's most creative player since his arrival, it doesn't really compute.
You start by claiming trophies are a benchmark of a player, hence Kane and Shearer were brought up, the two most lethal strikers in the history of the Premiership. One trophy between them. Great logic that.
When people have been posting stats and metrics which disprove your blinkered opinion, yet you still wish to double down on it for who knows what reason, then a healthy debate is non existent.
I mean, you have stated scoring winning goals is the only way to win a game......I needn't say any more to be honest. I feel that about sums your opinion up.
Arsenal Özil? Yes.
Real Madrid Özil? Debatable.
Özil is the OG chance creating machine. But I also remember him getting a lot of criticism for not being aggressive and hard-working enough. The first time I heard the term "luxury player" it was used to describe Özil.
Funnily enough, looking at his best season for Real and comparing it to Bruno from last season, he's still far behind in terms of chance creation. But the number of assists are of course night and day. That's the difference between prime Ronaldo and Wout I guess
Sorry but there are posters on here who know a lot more about football/Man United than ETH.
That's Pogba's mum so you shouldn't be surprised
The PogFam never forget who displaced Pogba at United
Truthbombs?That's Pogba's mum so you shouldn't be surprised
The PogFam never forget who displaced Pogba at United
Last edited:
The only one who has had a mare in here is you. You don't have any arguments. The content in your posts are how wrong we are, how shit the opinions are, Bruno is fantastic and does nothing wrong, straw man arguments and incorrect stats.
Please explain, specifically, where we are wrong. What is not true at all?
Your only argument is "Bruno creates chances, therefore he is best". It's just silly.
ha ha. this is the classic case of a PA thinking they can do the job of the CEO.
I guess the argument is, why in the hell would you want to replace our most effective player?
If a player is creating more chances than any other player in the league, never mind his own team, why would you think he is the problem? The logical thought would be to get someone who is better at converting those chances into goals, replacing whoever is most culpable for missing them.
Fine, Bruno's style can make the midfield a little unbalanced you say? Then replace one of the other midfielders in order to give it the required balance to get the best out of our most effective player. It's just common sense to want to keep the guy who creates the most and try to improve the structure around him to allow him to continue doing what he does, and be even more effective as the chances turn to goals more often.
At the moment, along with being the chief chance creator, he is also getting on the ball more than our box-to-box midfielders, making more passes, making more long passes, more crosses, more dribbles, more tackles and interceptions.
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that the guy is able to do all that while being a one-trick pony. We need to improve the guy next to him/Case, to take some responsibility of other aspects away from him so he's not so ragged during each game as he expends so much energy getting through all that work. Maybe, just maybe he would be a bit more composed if he had less to do.
Ya. Shameless Bruno. Putting out all these tweets himself.
What?
He missed one chance and he created 2/3 in the game whats your point?
Already on 2 yellows...with the new rules I can see a lot more players missing games due to accumulating 5 yellows.
Based on last season, Rashford was by far the most effective player. He was the difference, not Bruno.
Anyway, there is really no point for me to discuss this further as I've explained my thoughts on him in this thread already. I'm not going to change my mind about it, and I'm not going to change pro-Bruno posters' mind who only see "toP cHAnCeS CrEAtEd" despite us consistently playing like shit and no control whatsoever in a game, even against relegation fodder. It was the same last season, and the season before that, and it's going to be the same this season. Again, it's not only Bruno's fault, but he's part of our problem like the rest of our midfielders. Let's talk again after the Arsenal game and see how he performs in a big game.
When the chips are down, I would rather have Bruno in the trenches with me than Ozil who was a wetwipe. He was awful when taken out of that stacked team in Madrid.
Ah sorry, my bad. That’s fine.
It is. Players miss chances it happens
He was so bad he scored 9 goals and 13 assists in 2000 league minutes. Do you realise how insanely good that is? He was insane for Real Madrid, but they moved away from playing with a 10, and got Kroos a year later instead, and it worked out very good. Maybe we should do the same? Özil for Arsenal was also very good in his first four or five seasons before injuries caught up with him, which is why he retired relatively early.
That is true. It's just a bit odd when you see everyone complaining about United players missing the godly chances provided by Bruno when he has himself missed two sitters in two games.
Yep and all misses of course are equal. You might want to have a word with those blaming others for Bruno’s goals/assist stats though rather than me.
Given hes not a striker… and his main role in the team is to create…
He's an attacking midfielder. Finishing should be a strong point of his, like how Maddison, Ødegaard and De Bruyne are able to score a lot of non-penalty goals.
Pretty sure hes scored more than both Odegaard and Maddison.
United have seen some of the biggest defeats in their history with Bruno in the trenches melting down with the rest of the team.
Again pretty sure hes scored more than both.
Ozil for Arsenal was miles worse than Bruno for Utd. The irony is that you are saying we need a different player due to Brunos deficiencies in possession (which I would agree exist). However, you'd happily swap him for a player like Ozil, who hid in the biggest games and had very little workrate. All that swap would achieve is creating new issues and requiring a different partner to cover them. As others have said, instead of focusing on our best midfielder, why not instead focus on the other players and find players that can complement his style? You've even said in your post that Madrid got better after buying Kroos and moving Ozil back, well that's exactly what Utd should have done but pissed their money away on Mount who isn't that player. We have been crying out for years for a commanding midfield player who is comfortable taking the ball, being a high-volume passer and displaying top-level press resistance. Find that player and it will all quickly click.
When he played in the same position as Maddison and Odegaard during Ole's caretaker spell he easily outscored them both. This is less of a finishing issue and more of a deeper position issue.
This can also be said for Ozil, but at least Bruno never stopped working and trying. Ozil had some pathetic individual showings. He was entirely symptomatic of the soft belly Arsenal had during that period.
Bruno's finishing is good. Arguably better than Ødegaard's, except for last season obviously.
But Bruno's role has clearly changed after Ole rightfully got sacked. He's much more involved in the game now and he's rarely the guy in the box at the end of chances. One thing I noticed last season, which is a thing the stats typically don't pick up, is how much more often Bruno plays the pass leading to a chance. This is not counted as a key pass, but Bruno had a whole bunch of them. This is because he sits a little deeper. He'll ping the ball over the defence to the fullback, who then hits the ball into the box.
But Bruno's role has clearly changed after Ole rightfully got sacked. He's much more involved in the game now and he's rarely the guy in the box at the end of chances. One thing I noticed last season, which is a thing the stats typically don't pick up, is how much more often Bruno plays the pass leading to a chance. This is not counted as a key pass, but Bruno had a whole bunch of them. This is because he sits a little deeper. He'll ping the ball over the defence to the fullback, who then hits the ball into the box.
This is funny. Özil having "very little workrate" is one of the biggest myths in world football, but it still remains as some sort of truth. And as for hiding in the biggest games, isn't that exactly what Bruno is doing?
As for the bolded part, we're in agreement except I want a midfield three where control and technique is vital, not chaos. We should have got Kroos, we should've gotten Bellingham (yes, I know he didn't want to come) and Kovacic. A midfield with control, passing, press resistance, tenacity, technique, drive, dribbling and creativity. What do we have now?
In what particular season did he outscore them? There is not a single PL season where he scored over 10 open-play goals.
You've spent the best part of two days berating another poster for not providing an argument for their case and when you are actually presented with a valid argument you are not open to debate? Pathetic
Your attitude of not changing your mind is very childish. Why on earth would a United fan not be open to a United player changing their opinion of him?
Look we clearly want the same thing, I just believe that can be done with Bruno as a key cog. I think if you were to put out a midfield like the below you'd find that balance:
------------Bruno------------
---Casa----------FDJ------
Or say for example you added him to Chelsea's two:
--------------Bruno------------
------Enzo--------Caiceido---
I truly believe it can be done in a way where you can retain Bruno's chance creation, whilst also having better overall control and possession. See id argue that Bruno is good enough to build the team around, if he's erratic then find 10 other players who aren't because that's how teams are built. To mask the weaknesses of the individuals, particularly their best players.
They all scored similar number of non penalty goals in last 3 seasons.
Bruno - 25
Odegaard- 23
KdB - 26
Maddison - 29
I'm open to it, but it is the exact same point other posters have made. It really is tiresome having to repeat myself over and over. Nothing pathetic about it. It's just a waste of time when you can read through the thread.You've spent the best part of two days berating another poster for not providing an argument for their case and when you are actually presented with a valid argument you are not open to debate? Pathetic
Your attitude of not changing your mind is very childish. Why on earth would a United fan not be open to a United player changing their opinion of him?
I would change my mind if he improved, but I've been watching him for many years now, and it's the same player. It's not going to happen. If he somehow became a dribbler with press resistance, got technique and able to work in tight spaces without giving the ball away unnecessarily because he loses challenges easily or whines at his team mates every single opportunity he gets, I'd change my opinion of him. Will it happen? No.
Played less minutes in his first and second season, has a better goal/90 ratio
He did in almost every big defeat we had, he was nowhere to be seen in both away games against City and Liverpool last season for example.