Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[Solius]

In which case all jury trials would actually be conducted online by poll, with no lawyers and hence without cross-examination. And with evidence selected only by the prosecution. We have trials, at least in part, because even in the most open and shut case, apparently conclusive evidence is itself not 'transparent';. That doesn't mean that the initial conclusion derived from it isn't sometimes wholly accurate, but given the circumstances (including the withdrawal of the case by CPS and, one might add, the witnesses own 'unofficial' statements regarding the genesis of that same evidence - which, of course, also isn't 'transparent' or necessarily true - then we have to reserve judgement)

You're entitled to privately derive any judgement you like from whatever random selection of facts you like and to put this forward as a theory or speculation- you're not, however, entitled to simply call it the 'truth' or to pass moral judgement (that necessarily refers to not-established facts, even if your conjectures are well informed or based in probability, as established ) upon others who question the premises of this same judgement. This applies doubly if you actively choose to ignore the existence of counter-evidence as indicated by those responsible for determining whether a case goes forward or not.

Since the images are, as you say, so 'disgusting' (no disagreement here) in what they suggest , then have you not considered that there might therefore exist equally compelling evidence made available to the CPS to put that judgement in question. We're all in a situation where the degree to which new evidence was significant compared to an unwillingness for the alleged victim to participate. However, from what has been made available to us all, we know that it is some combination of both - and hence none of us are in any position to determine that balance as things currently stand...

If we could all actually agree on what has been firmly established and what is hypothesis or speculation from all sides, then this might be a slightly more productive and less mutually acrimonious discussion...

I don't know why all that was needed. It was an odd response from the guy to only care about Greenwood and not any other aspect of this.

Regardless, most couldn't give a shit if the CPS didn't prosecute or the witness revoked certain statements. We do not have to reserve judgement, we don't have to do anything. People are perfectly entitled to thoroughly dislike this man and not want him to play for their club again. Personally I also find it a bit sickening to see loads of little kids in Getafe idolising him and wanting his autograph.

For me the whole 'legally innocent' thing is a nice convenient shield for people to hide behind so they can still support a footballer they like. It's all nice and murky so people can claim we don't know the truth, all the info isn't out there, they must've dropped the charges for a reason. The truth is, on that audio he said "I don't care if you don't want to have sex with me" and "open your legs". CPS also drop charges all the time, especially in rape/sexual assault cases. There is often not enough evidence to make it worth pursuing. Even murder cases go to the wire with regards to getting the CPS to agree to prosecuting. It's a high threshold to meet, especially when a witness changes/retracts their statement. Has a person who has been abused ever stayed with and had a family with that person? Yes, all the time. It is incredibly common.

Trial by social media is bollocks as well. And so is crying cancel culture. It's called consequences. He'd obviously done so much to that girl that she had to resort to recording it because she knew what was going to happen. If fans don't want him here after just that, then they are entitled to state that. The charges were dropped, so he's free to be a footballer, but certain clubs will not want him. He will get boo'd. Tough shit. Don't be a massive twat then.

 

[UnsungHero]

I'm pleased for him.

Yes, he's been monumentally stupid, but it's a highly complex case - as evidenced by the alleged victim sat cheering him on at his unveiling.

He deserves a chance to make amends, many people have done wrong and turned their lives around - he should at least get that chance, as anyone else would.

Social media does not help matters, nor does the insufferable Rachel Riley offering an unhelpful commentary on things. She is not familiar with the details of the case. This is further compounded by her comments in relation to Antony - he's been accused of something and denies it. Who is she to interject? It's bizarre. She is not the arbiter of women's opinions on these matters, she's just an attention seeking, self-important so and so.

 

[DJ_21]

The welcome from their fans at the stadium was top. Nice to see

 

[GledTheRed]

Nobody knows what went on

We heard audio and saw photographs so we do know some of the things. And for many that's enough because of how disgusting it is.

but Greenwood must have been through a terrible time with it all.

Sympathy for the alleged abuser but none for the potential victim. That your first thought after hearing that audio would be 'Oh no he must've had a terrible time with it' shows where your priorities lie.

We’ve been through all this, like I said nobody knows what went on.

They are happy now so let’s leave them to get on with their lives without speculating on the internet continuously.

 

[Solius]

We’ve been through all this, like I said nobody knows what went on.

They are happy now so let’s leave them to get on with their lives without speculating on the internet continuously.

Poor widdle mason. Nobody has a clue what went on just so baffling how this could happen to such an innocent nice person.

 

[Lash]

That's the actual fact? She hasn't spoken to anyone? How on earth do you know that? Is she mute?

She didnt take part in the internal investigation by united and didn't speak to the CPS, hence the case was dropped. I'm not implying she's mute, I'm pretty sure you know I'm not either.

 

[Raoul]

We’ve been through all this, like I said nobody knows what went on.

They are happy now so let’s leave them to get on with their lives without speculating on the internet continuously.

More importantly, the club had access to far more evidence than anyone else and concluded he didn't commit the offenses as charged. We also don't know if legal authorities came to a similar conclusion based on the same information. Once both were concluded and final decisions made, that's the end of the matter.

 

[sizzling sausages]

More importantly, the club had access to far more evidence than anyone else and concluded he didn't commit the offenses as charged. We also don't know if legal authorities came to a similar conclusion based on the same information. Once both were concluded and final decisions made, that's the end of the matter.

Genuine question, what do you think actually happened?

 

[GledTheRed]

Poor widdle mason. Nobody has a clue what went on just so baffling how this could happen to such an innocent nice person.

Thats just it though, nobody knows apart from him and her and they are happy togethe

More importantly, the club had access to far more evidence than anyone else and concluded he didn't commit the offenses as charged. We also don't know if legal authorities came to a similar conclusion based on the same information. Once both were concluded and final decisions made, that's the end of the matter.

Exactly.

 

[Solius]

More importantly, the club had access to far more evidence than anyone else and concluded he didn't commit the offenses as charged. We also don't know if legal authorities came to a similar conclusion based on the same information. Once both were concluded and final decisions made, that's the end of the matter.

Not for the fans who would have to cheer this person on.

 

[dubplate warrior]

I'm pleased for him.

Yes, he's been monumentally stupid, but it's a highly complex case - as evidenced by the alleged victim sat cheering him on at his unveiling.

He deserves a chance to make amends, many people have done wrong and turned their lives around - he should at least get that chance, as anyone else would.

Social media does not help matters, nor does the insufferable Rachel Riley offering an unhelpful commentary on things. She is not familiar with the details of the case. This is further compounded by her comments in relation to Antony - he's been accused of something and denies it. Who is she to interject? It's bizarre. She is not the arbiter of women's opinions on these matters, she's just an attention seeking, self-important so and so.

Spot on.

 

[FriedClams]

I really wish people would stop the “the club had more evidence than any of us and decided he wasn’t guilty”. On what planet would an organization not IMMEDIATELY release findings that could somewhat exonerate an employee.

 

[Raoul]

Genuine question, what do you think actually happened?

Hard to speculate given that I don't have all the evidence. What counts for me are the legal conclusions, those subsequently made by United, and his partner's consistent support of the player throughout. Each are quite relevant when viewed alone. When viewed in totality, they make a very compelling case that he should be afforded a path towards reconciliation.

 

[MackRobinson]

Nobody knows what went on

We heard audio and saw photographs so we do know some of the things. And for many that's enough because of how disgusting it is.

Not trying to downplay how bad the audio or photographs looked but it's fair to say nobody knows exactly what went on, given that he wasn't charged with anything and the club supported his innocence in an official statement.

Hard to speculate given that I don't have all the evidence. What counts for me are the legal conclusions, those subsequently made by United, and his partner's consistent support of the player throughout. Each are quite relevant when viewed alone. When viewed in totality, they make a very compelling case that he should be afforded a path towards reconciliation.

Not just that, but the fact that her family still supports Greenwood is telling. I can't imagine a father believing his daughter was raped/abused and still sits down to have dinner with him and his family.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I really wish people would stop the “the club had more evidence than any of us and decided he wasn’t guilty”. On what planet would an organization not IMMEDIATELY release findings that could somewhat exonerate an employee.

Just because you can't think of a reason, does not mean one doesn't exist. This is where it feels like trial by social media, because now we have to convince you.

 

[CasaStreets]

Not for the fans who would have to cheer this person on.

But you don't, because the club sent him out to Getafe. Pretending that any of us know precisely what the club will do after the loan period is not a useful exercise because we don't know. It seems like everyone is just assuming the worst case from their individual perspective, with no real knowledge whatsoever.

We can all tell from the reaction on this forum that the issue is fraught with emotion and complexity across the entire range of stakeholders. Given that, I'm fairly impressed with the job the club has done managing this situation. Onward.

 

[Solius]

Thats just it though, nobody knows apart from him and her and they are happy togethe


Exactly.

Like I said. We do know some things. We heard the audio. We saw the pictures.

Not trying to downplay how bad the audio or photographs looked but it's fair to say nobody knows exactly what went on, given that he wasn't charged with anything and the club supported his innocence in an official statement.

Nobody technically knows exactly what went on for most things in the world but we get the gist.

Hiding behind "Well we just don't know" is rubbish imo but each to their own.

 

[Cela]

I really wish people would stop the “the club had more evidence than any of us and decided he wasn’t guilty”. On what planet would an organization not IMMEDIATELY release findings that could somewhat exonerate an employee.

So if the evidence in hand paints the victim/complaint in a negative way, the club should still release that evidence?

 

[JediSith]

You literally must have googled the statement and you've still purposefully excluded the bits I referred to.

Here's the link so try again https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...orters-after-club-decision-on-mason-greenwood

They call out their investigation to be limited (which anyone with any experience knew) and essentially confirm the evidence given is third party statements. They didn't conclude from the audio anything they were given an alternative explanation and had no means to reasonably challenge that explanation (how would they).

I tried to explain this several times before the outcome was even disclosed. The club doesn't do a criminal investigation all HR investigations are primarily based on statements and public information. It's very very doubtful the police would have shared anything as there was no legal grounds for them to do so.

Greenwood and her family provided statements (most likely via lawyers), given no criminal proceedings or any other witness it's open and shut for any company.

Yes. I quoted the club that was found on Google. Your link doesn’t have anything that suggests “limited investigation” and if it did you would have quoted it.

No one said anything about criminal investigation… if anything I compared it more to like a civil investigation where the burden or proof would be lower.

 

[Sandikan]

Hard to speculate given that I don't have all the evidence. What counts for me are the legal conclusions, those subsequently made by United, and his partner's consistent support of the player throughout. Each are quite relevant when viewed alone. When viewed in totality, they make a very compelling case that he should be afforded a path towards reconciliation.

If there is any evidence to the contrary of him being an absolute wrongun, why wouldn't either the club, or the alleged victim bring it to the media?
Bearing in mind that both of their ideal outcomes would be to stay playing at United, in their home envrionment?

Instead of this we've had nothing from the family and a strange statement from United saying, ohhh we believe him from what we've seen but we're still exiling him.

 

[RedSky]

Feels like a Black Mirror episode if I'm honest.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I'm pleased for him.

Yes, he's been monumentally stupid, but it's a highly complex case - as evidenced by the alleged victim sat cheering him on at his unveiling.

He deserves a chance to make amends, many people have done wrong and turned their lives around - he should at least get that chance, as anyone else would.

Social media does not help matters, nor does the insufferable Rachel Riley offering an unhelpful commentary on things. She is not familiar with the details of the case. This is further compounded by her comments in relation to Antony - he's been accused of something and denies it. Who is she to interject? It's bizarre. She is not the arbiter of women's opinions on these matters, she's just an attention seeking, self-important so and so.

Thank God you're here to tell us all the facts

 

[FriedClams]

Not trying to downplay how bad the audio or photographs looked but it's fair to say nobody knows exactly what went on, given that he wasn't charged with anything and the club supported his innocence in an official statement.


Not just that, but the fact that her family still supports Greenwood is telling. I can't imagine a father believing his daughter was raped/abused and still sits down to have dinner with him and his family.

For all we know, her father isn't the nicest person.

 

[STYLOISRED]

If Greenwood plays well in this loan, he will most likely play for man Utd again. If there is a change of management then that likelihood rises to a 100%. Many here don't want him playing for the club because of how they feel but the reality is that they don't matter as much as they like to believe. The victim in question is happy with him. Followed him to Spain to cheer him on and their families are in support. For me those are the parties that matter because those are the parties that can ensure that what ever ugly incident occured, it will not happen again.
Getafe have also done well because what he needs right now is support (I know many will say he doesn't) because whether we like to believe it or not, the fate of the mother and child are tied to his. Any support he gets now will directly affect them.

 

[maniak]

Hard to speculate given that I don't have all the evidence. What counts for me are the legal conclusions, those subsequently made by United, and his partner's consistent support of the player throughout. Each are quite relevant when viewed alone. When viewed in totality, they make a very compelling case that he should be afforded a path towards reconciliation.

He broke the court's ruling and got in touch with her illegally, I assume to plead with her or pressure her, after which she stopped cooperating. We know abuse victims often stay with their partners. Isn't this relevant in your equation?

 

[Raoul]

If there is any evidence to the contrary of him being an absolute wrongun, why wouldn't either the club, or the alleged victim bring it to the media?
Bearing in mind that both of their ideal outcomes would be to stay playing at United, in their home envrionment?

Instead of this we've had nothing from the family and a strange statement from United saying, ohhh we believe him from what we've seen but we're still exiling him.

Probably because its not a public matter, but rather a private one between club and player, and player and his family. Club and player have already made public statements and neither are in any way obliged to publish all the details to anonymous strangers on the internet. This isn't a reality show after all, and there are family considerations involved among the player, his partner, their child and extended families.

 

[MackRobinson]

Nobody technically knows exactly what went on for most things in the world but we get the gist.

Hiding behind "Well we just don't know" is rubbish imo but each to their own.

It's not hiding, it's simply refraining from jumping to conclusions. If I thought I was falsely accused of a crime I would want the same courtesy.

 

[TsuWave]

More importantly, the club had access to far more evidence than anyone else and concluded he didn't commit the offenses as charged. We also don't know if legal authorities came to a similar conclusion based on the same information.

We at least know legal authorities knew there was no chance of a conviction long before the charges were dropped:

A court heard last October how a central plank in the inquiry had collapsed only four months after Greenwood was arrested.

It is understood that police and prosecutors initially decided to continue with the case because of the significant level of public interest, given Greenwood’s high profile and the seriousness of the allegations.

But a review of the case by CPS lawyers has concluded that there was no realistic prospect of conviction given the collapse of the case.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news...ors-drop-alleged-case-against-mason-greenwood

 

[Solius]

It's not hiding, it's simply refraining from jumping to conclusions. If I thought I was falsely accused of a crime I would want the same courtesy.

He’s not been falsely accused.

I’ll caveat that with just my opinion of course because as we all know when charges are dropped it’s because someone is totally and utterly innocent and were just really unfortunate.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He broke the court's ruling and got in touch with her illegally, I assume to plead with her or pressure her, after which she stopped cooperating. We know abuse victims often stay with their partners. Isn't this relevant in your equation?

There’s some serious speculation. We have no idea how they reconnected to be fair so let’s not pretend we do.

The only thing we know for certain is that he broke the terms of his bail by being in contact.

 

[moses]

It's not hiding, it's simply refraining from jumping to conclusions. If I thought I was falsely accused of a crime I would want the same courtesy.

I think people's opinions are connected to the vile media that has never been explained. That's logical right?

If that media existed regarding you, would you not explain it if you could?

 

[maniak]

There’s some serious speculation. We have no idea how they reconnected to be fair so let’s not pretend we do.

True, but if you read on the news that jane doe accused john doe of hitting her. The judge tells john doe he can't contact jane doe. He does, and after that jane doe stops cooperating with police... I mean, if you're honest you would suspect something shady happened.

We speculate about these cases all the time, we do it with politicians, celebrities, etc. We collect the public info and we make our judgement.

But in this case we have to close our eyes, cover our years and support mason because he wasn't prosecuted? It's bonkers.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I think people's opinions are connected to the vile media that has never been explained. That's logical right?

If that media existed regarding you, would you not explain it if you could?

Yes, certainly logical but illogical to ignore or reject that there is more to the audio recording that is unknown and could alter ones perception of it.

What if the media could paint your partner in a (subjectively) bad light and you want to protect them?

 

[golden_blunder]

I just think the club has been terribly naive here....naive to think there wouldn't be further questions and perhaps naive to think it might not all blow up again

Can’t help but think that don’t the last we hear about this couple

 

[sugar_kane]

I'm pleased for him.

Yes, he's been monumentally stupid, but it's a highly complex case - as evidenced by the alleged victim sat cheering him on at his unveiling.

He deserves a chance to make amends, many people have done wrong and turned their lives around - he should at least get that chance, as anyone else would.

Social media does not help matters, nor does the insufferable Rachel Riley offering an unhelpful commentary on things. She is not familiar with the details of the case. This is further compounded by her comments in relation to Antony - he's been accused of something and denies it. Who is she to interject? It's bizarre. She is not the arbiter of women's opinions on these matters, she's just an attention seeking, self-important so and so.

One of the first reactions I had to the footage of him in Getafe with the fans was how young and insecure he comes across as, and this is nearly two years on from what happened with his girlfriend.

The Daily Mail article from a few weeks ago painted him out to have developmental issues, it wouldn’t surprise me at all.

Of course it won’t stop the Rachel Riley’s of the world steaming in and trying to boost their own profile by painting him as an irredeemable monster.

We increasingly live in a world of extremes, without nuance or shade. It’s not helpful.

While I still think he’s a shitbag and certainly guilty of something rotten, I have recently come round to the idea that there is more to the story than we know, it just seems like a complete mess. I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

When has it ever been a part of it. Sport has always been about a physical transaction among athletes and an emotional transaction between athlete and fan.

The concept of ascribing morality to this process is relatively new and has yet to be embraced by a vast majority of fans who are largely interested in entertainment and the satisfaction of being a part of a winning side.

You hit the nail on the head. Fans were in love with the game and also athletes. Now they are not, reason being that athletes are in it for the money and nothing else. There is no love for the game. And so have morals.

 

[Raoul]

He broke the court's ruling and got in touch with her illegally, I assume to plead with her or pressure her, after which she stopped cooperating. We know abuse victims often stay with their partners. Isn't this relevant in your equation?

Not sure if I agree with the latter bit, as its a narrative that appears to rob his partner of her agency to make her own choices by needlessly cramming a victimhood stereotype onto her when none of us actually know her motivation. For all we know, they could legitimately be in love with the intention of starting a family and becoming life partners, which appears to be playing out given that she appears all in on their long term relationship.

 

[moses]

Yes, certainly logical but illogical to ignore that there is more to the audio recording that is unknown.

What if the media could paint your partner in a (subjectively) bad light and you want to protect them?

We're into hypotheticals. It's a fact that people saw the media and it's thus far unexplained. They were powerful images.

I was replying to a poster who said he was falsely accused and people should move on. But they have no reason to. Hypotheticals don't wash.

People are as entitled to move on as not. It's the idea people should move on I was taking issue with. Not arguing that you shouldn't. If your faith in the cops and MUFC is that strong then totally move on. Neither institution has done enough to make me personally move on from what I saw.

 

[maniak]

Not sure if I agree with the latter bit, as its a narrative that appears to rob his partner of her agency to make her own choices by needlessly cramming a victimhood stereotype onto her when none of us actually know her motivation. For all we know, they could legitimately be in love with the intention of starting a family and becoming life partners, which appears to be playing out given that she appears all in on their long term relationship.

That's fair, but I don't see why assuming everything was done in a friendly way and she's genuinely happy is more valid than assuming the was pressured and is suffering from what many other abuse victims suffer when they remain with their abusive partners.

Both are guesses, I'm just wondering what made you pick one over the other. Optimism? Projecting because you hope they have a happy ending? I'm curious.

 

[TsuWave]

If there is any evidence to the contrary of him being an absolute wrongun, why wouldn't either the club, or the alleged victim bring it to the media?

Because it’s not that simple? The particulars of this situation could compromise and put both the victim and Greenwood in a vulnerable position? Greenwood did say that he didn’t commit the offences he was accused of, but that he’s made mistakes in his relationship - if you look for it you can find testimony of people in random forums prior to this situation saying they had a toxic/volatile relationship. All that veers the conversation into speculation territory though.

Would it even be possible for the club to disclose said particulars legally? The victim has a right for lifelong anonymity