Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[VorZakone]

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[Ekkie Thump]

Beyond the bombing the most heinous thing for the days to come is the cutting off of all supply to a people without means of escape. No food, no water, no medical supplies. Without relief it will be an incalculable horror. Already the displaced number in the hundreds of thousands.

An update now from the United Nations agency that works with Palestinian refugees:

• More than 187,000 people have been displaced across the Gaza Strip - and the number is expected to increase
• There are 137,500 sheltering in 83 UN schools
• The UNRWA field office in Gaza has "suffered collateral damage due to airstrikes"
• Almost half a million people in Gaza have not been able to get UN food rations this week as distribution centres have been closed

 

[VorZakone]

Bill Clinton chimes in.

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[11101]

You could ask the same for/about the Gazans. What should they have done? We hate what's happened but when they have no other means of fighting back and are kept in a dungeon, there obviously has to be a proportionate military response, how should Hamas minimise human suffering?

See how quickly that falls apart? No one countenances the legitimacy of it for a second but what difference? Palestinian civilians, also, slaughtered, raped, and abducted (just more regularly).

That's a fairly stupid comment. They could try attacking military targets instead of hunting down civilians? There are plenty of them and they are well separated from the civilian population.

Civilians on both sides are innocent in this but there is no world where Hamas are not fully responsible for what happened this weekend and the retaliation they will provoke.

 

[neverdie]

That's a fairly stupid comment. They could try attacking military targets instead of hunting down civilians? There are plenty of them and they are well separated from the civilian population.

Civilians on both sides are innocent in this but there is no world where Hamas are not fully responsible for what happened this weekend and the retaliation they will provoke.

No, it's apt, because both Hamas and the IDF routinely kill civillians. Only we pretend that one doesn't when everyone knows it does.

There is a world in which that is not the case, and it's beyond Europe and the US and tends to be the majority of global opinion. Just for the record.

 

[RedC]

The meaning of countries as we know today started shortly before the first ww, I wouldn't use it as an argument for or against. Both people have claim to that land, both people lived there for thousands of years. Hell, the name Palestinian Syria was given by the Romans after they've crushed Judea's rebelion. The problem is both have claim to it, but can't live with each other.

Yeah, an ethnic group living somewhere literal thousands of years ago is equivalent to another group presently living there. I must find out where my ancestors from 300 years ago lived and see if the current owners are amenable to me moving in.

 

[dinostar77]

,
Casualties brought to hospital are civilians
By Youmna ElSayed in Gaza City’s Al-Shifa Hospital:
The bombardment has not stopped since last night, and residential buildings are being hit every hour. Ambulances have been coming to the hospital, bringing dead bodies. Most of them are young children who are taken to the morgue right away. The casualties we are seeing are civilians, not Hamas fighters. Doctors are telling us that as soon as they run out of supplies and fuel, they will need to completely shut down operations, there’s nothing else that they can do. They say that if aid does enter the Gaza Strip through international humanitarian organisations, then they won’t be able to help any of the casualties. It’s as simple as that in Gaza.

 

[kaku06]

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They are going to wipe off a big chunk of Gazas population in the name of terrorists and annex Gaza Strip. Aren’t they?

 

[Andy_Cole]

They are going to wipe off a big chunk of Gazas population in the name of terrorists and annex Gaza Strip. Aren’t they?

Yeh. Sadly it’s the first thing I thought about when the festival attack happened. That Israel are going to go all out now. They have their excuse.

 

[RoadTrip]

I think you've very badly misunderstood what my view is or quoted the wrong post?

I definitely meant to quote you. Doesn’t mean I haven’t cocked something up in my understanding though!

 

[Cassidy]

My reasoning is circular, as is yours of course. And so we spiral into hell.

Possibly true

 

[VorZakone]

They are going to wipe off a big chunk of Gazas population in the name of terrorists and annex Gaza Strip. Aren’t they?

And what do you specifically mean by a "big chunk of Gazas population"?

 

[dinostar77]

They are going to wipe off a big chunk of Gazas population in the name of terrorists and annex Gaza Strip. Aren’t they?

the world will watch and back them while they commit genocide.

1.7million refugees live in the gaza strip.

As a species is there anything we wont destroy?

 

[kaku06]

And what do you specifically mean by a "big chunk of Gazas population"?

Might be hundreds of thousands. I don’t know. I’m dreading it. Civilians have no where to go and they gonna bombard Gaza into oblivion.

 

[the_cliff]

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Israel informed Egypt that it would bomb any trucks carrying aid to Gaza.

 

[Ragnar123]

No they don’t. The Jewish control of the land ended around 1,000 years before 1947.

Yes and it started again in 1947, because they moved back to the lands of their ancestors after being hunted in Europe, so how does that negate the fact that both people lived there for thousands of years? Or do you simply pick that part of history that suits you like Russia does with Ukraine?

 

[Beachryan]

You could ask the same for/about the Gazans. What should they have done? We hate what's happened but when they have no other means of fighting back and are kept in a dungeon, there obviously has to be a proportionate military response, how should Hamas minimise human suffering?

See how quickly that falls apart? No one countenances the legitimacy of it for a second but what difference? Palestinian civilians, also, slaughtered, raped, and abducted (just more regularly).

You (and others) seem to excuse Hamas' action as a simple extrapolation of the situation, but I really feels this removes the agency of these individuals. They CHOSE to perform the actions of the past week. Persumably, somewhat unilaterally, without it necessarily being the action that the vast majority of Gazans would have wanted.

For me this is simply false. There are always alternatives to any action. Hamas has no interest in a better two-state solution. Its actions this week demonstrate it has no interest in a better life for those it claims to represent.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is obviously, clearly and demonstrably abhorrent. But if Israel had similar beliefs to Hamas, there would no longer be a Gaza.

Realistically, due to more failings than can be articulated by more powers and figures of history than can be listed, we've arrived at point where the two-state solution seems simply unrealistic. So for me, a more dramatic solution is needed. And the most logical to me, from way over here in the West, would be for the relatively small number of Palestinians to be offered a place in more stable, wealthier arab countries where they can lead a better life than they currently have. I know that's unfair, I know its their land, I know quite a lot about the history of the region. But you can't change those things, you can only move forward imo.

Given how well the world adjusted to the Syrian refugees, I kind of doubt it'll happen though.

 

[Drizzle]

Yeh. Sadly it’s the first thing I thought about when the festival attack happened. That Israel are going to go all out now. They have their excuse.

That says more about you than you perhaps realise.

 

[the_cliff]

Yes and it started again in 1947, because they moved back to the lands of their ancestors after being hunted in Europe, so how does that negate the fact that both people lived there for thousands of years? Or do you simply pick that part of history that suits you like Russia does with Ukraine?

No it didn't. The land allocated to them was only a fraction of what it is now. Have a look at the 1947 map and compare it to now and voila there is the whole problem.

 

[kaku06]

the world will watch and back them while they commit genocide.

1.7million refugees live in the gaza strip.

As a species is there anything we wont destroy?

Makes me physically sick that even in this day and age there’s no accountability and how easy it is to create a propaganda to wipe out an entire populace. Rule of law and Modern times my arse. There was more hope of getting justice in the Jurassic period.

 

[Pexbo]

I don't think what Israel did before the attack was okay. What they have been doing since however is how I would expect most countries to react.

“Well sir, it all started when he hit me back!”

 

[RoadTrip]

You (and others) seem to excuse Hamas' action as a simple extrapolation of the situation, but I really feels this removes the agency of these individuals. They CHOSE to perform the actions of the past week. Persumably, somewhat unilaterally, without it necessarily being the action that the vast majority of Gazans would have wanted.

For me this is simply false. There are always alternatives to any action. Hamas has no interest in a better two-state solution. Its actions this week demonstrate it has no interest in a better life for those it claims to represent.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is obviously, clearly and demonstrably abhorrent. But if Israel had similar beliefs to Hamas, there would no longer be a Gaza.

Realistically, due to more failings than can be articulated by more powers and figures of history than can be listed, we've arrived at point where the two-state solution seems simply unrealistic. So for me, a more dramatic solution is needed. And the most logical to me, from way over here in the West, would be for the relatively small number of Palestinians to be offered a place in more stable, wealthier arab countries where they can lead a better life than they currently have. I know that's unfair, I know its their land, I know quite a lot about the history of the region. But you can't change those things, you can only move forward imo.

Given how well the world adjusted to the Syrian refugees, I kind of doubt it'll happen though.

An assumption that may not be true - evidenced 1) by Netenyahu’s map at the UN a few weeks ago, and 2) the fact that a key reason they haven’t done this is likely (not confirmed, my opinion) due to being tempered by the international community.

And, I’m not convinced this isn’t happening anyway. Look at how settlements are being destroyed in the WB. Isn’t this exactly that? Just slower, more calculated, and not reported.

 

[owlo]

The irony that, as of last night, the only way of getting out of Gaza, was paying Hamas for tunnel access.

 

[The Corinthian]

Yes and it started again in 1947, because they moved back to the lands of their ancestors after being hunted in Europe, so how does that negate the fact that both people lived there for thousands of years? Or do you simply pick that part of history that suits you like Russia does with Ukraine?

It has no relevance. Palestinians living there had been there for 1,000 years. Why should their land be taken away for them for Europe's antisemitism? You're speaking some right nonsense.

Why not go further back when the land was known as Canaan and inhabited by Egyptians - shouldn't the land be theirs using your illogic logic.

 

[Ragnar123]

No it didn't. The land allocated to them was only a fraction of what it is now. Have a look at the 1947 map and compare it to now and voila there is the whole problem.

If you start numerous wars and lose them, you can't complain about losing land. It's humanity's history.

 

[kaku06]

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Israel informed Egypt that it would bomb any trucks carrying aid to Gaza.

That was my last hope. What the feck? Might as well nuke Gaza now. That way it would be much easier for the civilians than what’s coming.

 

[MDFC Manager]

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Israel informed Egypt that it would bomb any trucks carrying aid to Gaza.

Ah this sounds so familiar. fecking barbarians

 

[The Corinthian]

If you start numerous wars and lose them, you can't complain about losing land. It's humanity's history.

What war did they start when their land was taken away from them? Are Palestinians backed by a superpower in the same way Israel has significant US and European backing?

 

[That_Bloke]

I was simply mentioning a people who have about a similar population who have been subjected to genocide, torture, oppression and being thrown into chinese prison camps and have had their country annexed while the world watched and did nothing. It was more about finding someone who could be in some way compared to the people of palestine and responding with the terror tactics havnt been on the table. But apart from that i guess the situation perhaps in many ways cant be compared. When it comes to Israel and Palestine I have no fecking realistic idea about should be done.

Then I misunderstood your interpretation. My apologies, once again.

My take is that if the oppressed has something in common with you and you got something to gain while having a stick big enough to make your voice heard, then things happen. If your opponent also got a big stick that might hurt you if it turns into a real fight, then nothing really happens. If the oppressor is a mate of yours, then nothing happens also.

Terror and hit-and-run tactics, as much as one doesn't like them nor can find any kind of justification, have been a go-to method to shake things up when you're confronted to a vastly superior opponent that you can't face directly. I'm referring to resistance movements involved in obtaining their independence and history is riddled with them. It's not pretty, it's not moral, but if you don't pay enough attention to an on-going problem and make people so desperate that they can't see any other alternative, they'll usually resort to violence. In a way that will make you listen. You can bury your head in the sand and sing La-la-la, you can invoke the moral high ground, you can rage and rightly be outraged from your point of view, then flex your muscles and flatten them in retaliation, but you won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm in no way glorifiying or justfiying what Hamas did. This attack is horrible, there's no other way to put it. I'm particularly thinking of those who lost their lives at the festival, it resonates with me in a harrowing manner. On the other side, I've seen, experienced and read enough to know that it's just how human beings tick and I'm backed by hundreds, if not thousands of years of history. Revolutions are bloody, independence wars are bloody, resistance is bloody. You'll often see the worst human beings have to offer in these times. But you just can't expect an oppressed population facing an occupation that's becoming harsher and hasher as time goes by to just get on with it and stop being fussy about it. That's never happened. You either compromise, leave or just flat-out eradicate them.

If we leave these two alone, Palestine is absolutely bound to disappear as a country. As things are actually going, we might even see it in our lifetime. The balance of power is so completely disproportionate that it's not even a contest. The only way, imo, would be the intervention of the major international players. Put pressure on both parties. It worked in many civil and independence wars in the past. The two state solutions was the only thing that could've ended it, but I just can't see it happening now.

The major caveat is that Israel's situation is unique. WWII and the Holocaust made the former Allies, the ones who hold the real power to make things happen at the moment, extremely reluctant to criticize Israel or its politics. Even if they do, it's just lip service that doesn't change a single thing. Putting boots on the ground there is unthinkable. Europe has absolutely been guilt ridden to this day and they don't have the US, or China's, Russia's military might, so they're out anyway. Russia has other problems at the moment. China doesn't really give a damn and certainly won't put a finger in that hornets nest while being focused on Taiwan. There's only one country in this world remotely able to put an end to this madness and senseless loss of life, and that's the US, but they've already chosen their side and there's no way it's gonna change.

 

[Dan_F]

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Israel informed Egypt that it would bomb any trucks carrying aid to Gaza.

Isn’t that a war crime?

 

[Laurencio]

Might be hundreds of thousands. I don’t know. I’m dreading it. Civilians have no where to go and they gonna bombard Gaza into oblivion.

The bombing isn't the worst part. Hundreds of thousands of reservists, without significant combat experience, are being called up to basically invade Gaza, where they will encounter desperate and angry civilians. Even after bombing the place and starving the populace they will face a very difficult and challenging battlefield. What do they do when kids inevitably pelt them with stones? There's a reason they've avoided going in there until now.

 

[owlo]

It has no relevance. Palestinians living there had been there for 1,000 years. Why should their land be taken away for them for Europe's antisemitism? You're speaking some right nonsense.

Why not go further back when the land was known as Canaan and inhabited by Egyptians - shouldn't the land be theirs using your illogic logic.

Best not to spout your own nonsense when arguing with others about theirs.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Isn’t that a war crime?

Only if every establishment isn't in your pocket.

 

[the_cliff]

Isn’t that a war crime?

Yeah but when your defense minister says this:

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I'm not sure they care too much. Israel seem to be able to get away with different rules to the rest of the international community.

 

[The Corinthian]

Best not to spout your own nonsense when arguing with others about theirs.

Try challenging it. Or are we going to have to hear how Al Husseini influenced Hitler from yourself again.

 

[kaku06]

It has no relevance. Palestinians living there had been there for 1,000 years. Why should their land be taken away for them for Europe's antisemitism? You're speaking some right nonsense.

Why not go further back when the land was known as Canaan and inhabited by Egyptians - shouldn't the land be theirs using your illogic logic.

Some people don’t want to say it aloud but are trying their hardest to justify the massacre that is happening and about to happen.

 

[Ragnar123]

It has no relevance. Palestinians living there had been there for 1,000 years. Why should their land be taken away for them for Europe's antisemitism? You're speaking some right nonsense.

Why not go further back when the land was known as Canaan and inhabited by Egyptians - shouldn't the land be theirs using your illogic logic.

If you start your opinion with the timeline that suits you and ignore the fact that both people lived there for thousands of years long before BCE, there's no reason to continue the conversation.
It was a mistake to take you off the ignore list, I won't repeat that mistake again.

 

[owlo]

Try challenging it. Or are we going to have to hear how Al Husseini influenced Hitler from yourself again.

I didn't say that. I said he and the palestinian authorities lobbied the authorities to send jews to concentration camps instead of allowing them to emigrate to palestine. And I showed a picture of him at a camp and with hitler.

I'm not going to educate you on the origins of Palestinian nationalism and history. You [hopefully] already know more than I ever could. I'm just asking you to stop being intentionally dishonest.

 

[The Corinthian]

Some people don’t want to say it aloud but are trying their hardest to justify the massacre that is happening and about to happen.

Oh, 100%. Sickening to see. And the mental gymnastics of some of these posters defending Ukraine's right to resistance (and rightly so) whilst condemning Palestinians.

 

[Krakenzero]

I know there's a long history between Israel and Palestine, but my clueless wife asked me to tell her what it is in no more than 7 words.

I failed. Could you do it?