Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

Arsenal fans may want to be in denial thinking about this but one has to ask what's the end goal with this manager. Surely 4 and a half season and £700m spent, you would want more than just one FA cup which was 4 years back.

They can still very much win the league this season but if they don't then what's the target for next season or even after that? Can't keep on saying we are running city close
 
European football is just a weird thing. Like we see with Madrid and to a lesser extent Bayern and (unfortunately) the scousers, there's almost a belief factor that runs through the club that they belong in the top echelons, that winning QF's, SF's and getting to finals is expected, regardless of how good the team actually is. Arsenal are on the other end of that spectrum. They can have very good teams but just don't have that European pedigree and belief. Even we have underperformed in Europe compared to how good we actually used to be.
 
Lovely to see the back of all the English teams in the CL but hopefully they get back on their feet and go on to win the league.

I don’t know why Arteta’s teams keep running out of gas around this time of the season. It doesn’t help that he didn’t upgrade on Jesus with a proper CF. Feels like he went for an option that’s decent but neither here nor there.
 
AshRK said:
Arsenal fans may want to be in denial thinking about this but one has to ask what's the end goal with this manager. Surely 4 and a half season and £700m spent, you would want more than just one FA cup which was 4 years back.

They can still very much win the league this season but if they don't then what's the target for next season or even after that? Can't keep on saying we are running city close
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End goal is to win the PL against cheaters, just like everyone else. You can swap managers if you want, he won't arrive with a B team worth 500M.
We don't need to sack Arteta to improve and not draw to Fulham or lose to Aston Villa. He's done the hardest part and rebuilt the club/squad to be in a position to challenge which is not an easy task when you look around. A striker, cover for Saka, a Jorginho clone and we go again.
 
I’ve been having a good think what I think the current state of the team / squad is, and how we improve on it, and the main issue for me is I think we are missing that star quality in the forward areas. You get to this stage in the Champions League, or competing for league titles, and you are playing against Sane and Kane, or Vinicius and Rodrigo, De Bruyne and Haaland, or Mbappe, or Salah, I just don’t think Arsenal have players quite at that level.

Going through them individually, I think Martinelli and Saka are very good, although suffering a bit for fitness and form, but I’m not sure they are great yet. Jesus likewise suffering from fitness and form issues, but again even if fully fit, is he a real game changer? Havertz has given us another good forward option, but ultimately for the fee and wages, he hasn’t been a level raiser. Trossard, a good squad player, he’s certainly not great.

I think Arteta has built a very good team, coached very well, and play a very good system. But how do you turn a very good team into a great team? Sometimes even the best coached teams just need moments of sheer magic from special players at the top end of the pitch, and I think at times we lack that. I’ve seen last nights game a few times this season, against the likes of Newcastle and Villa away, and it’s frustrating. All fart and no poo at times.

I’m not sure what the answer is though, your talking about buying 1 or 2 of the very best players, or managing to develop high potential into them, and that’s not easy to do, but I feel that’s where we are. There are other areas we can tighten, the left back spot, a long term Rice partner the other obvious ones, but that top end needs a little something special added to it.
 
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AshRK said:
Arsenal fans may want to be in denial thinking about this but one has to ask what's the end goal with this manager. Surely 4 and a half season and £700m spent, you would want more than just one FA cup which was 4 years back.

They can still very much win the league this season but if they don't then what's the target for next season or even after that? Can't keep on saying we are running city close
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Don't think Arsenal fans are in denial, it's ManUtd fans with some illogical posts.

He has built amazing team, from trying to finish in top 4 to competing for league title, dominate every game except vs City and even against City they look to keep the ball.

It's incredibly difficult to win the league against 115FC, but Arsenal got very close last season and even this season. Look at their team and how they play, why will any Arsenal fan complain about this, except for some attention seeking weirdos on YouTube or Twitter.
 
roonster09 said:
Don't think Arsenal fans are in denial, it's ManUtd fans with some illogical posts.

He has built amazing team, from trying to finish in top 4 to competing for league title, dominate every game except vs City and even against City they look to keep the ball.

It's incredibly difficult to win the league against 115FC, but Arsenal got very close last season and even this season. Look at their team and how they play, why will any Arsenal fan complain about this, except for some attention seeking weirdos on YouTube or Twitter.
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Amazing is pushing it, a lot, he’s built a good team with a good few young players with the potential to get better, but ultimately they finished on 84 pts last season and will most likely finish on a similar tally this season, and that’s only enough to win the league in a couple of season in the last 20 odd years, while crashing out of all the cups. If the Kroenkes are just happy with a consistent top 4 team then he’s free to be the next post Highbury Wenger, but Arse fans do expect something more after not winning the league for 20 years, even though most of them at the moment isn’t calling for the sack.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Amazing is pushing it, a lot, he’s built a good team with a good few young players with the potential to get better, but ultimately they finished on 84 pts last season and will most likely finish on a similar tally this season, and that’s only enough to win the league in a couple of season in the last 20 odd years, while crashing out of all the cups. If the Kroenkes are just happy with a consistent top 4 team then he’s free to be the next post Highbury Wenger, but Arse fans do expect something more after not winning the league for 20 years, even though most of them at the moment isn’t calling for the sack.
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Don't think comparing points tally across season is logical, every season is different. Otherwise we have to come or conclusion that Jose ManUtd was better than Treble winning ManUtd because they got 2 more points.

Point is, you watch Arsenal team and you can see why they are so good, they control games and plays with very good intensity.

They don't have just few good players. Apart from CF and LB, they have very good players everywhere. Till last PL game they had best attacking and defensive record.

They are progressing well, need bit more quality to win the league but they will get there.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Partey being a perpetual sick note has ruined that. ATM he only has 2 options at CM - Rice and Jorginho. Which is why he's had to revert to playing Havertz in midfield again, which won't be good enough against the better teams (eg Villa and Bayern). Jorginho unfortunately doesn't have the legs to play 2 full games a week.
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What about that Vieira guy? He never looked very good to me but didn't he cost £40m? Is he not even in the reckoning?
 
TheGame said:
Rice has been one of their best players this season and he did well tonight. The attack was shit.
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We don’t need to talk about that player in this thread. I’ve said one of most overrated player and WestHam can just laugh about selling him for that money.
Arteta have already quality in that position in Jorginho and Partey. He should use them to get best of Arsenal team.
 
Arsenal just falling again at the business end of the season. Still in league and have a great chance. I just doubt there mentality to do it, young team that have looked great at times this season. Need to grow now and deliver. It's a shame but I just don't trust them to win this league. You look at the fans clearing again after the villa game. The players deserve more support when it's not going well, which has be rare this season. Fans turn badly on them and I think that can be the difference. As much as I dislike Liverpool they don't turn on there players easily.
 
90 + 5min said:
We don’t need to talk about that player in this thread. I’ve said one of most overrated player and WestHam can just laugh about selling him for that money.
Arteta have already quality in that position in Jorginho and Partey. He should use them to get best of Arsenal team.
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Jorginho can’t seem to play 2 games in a week. The money is of course insane and he’s not worth that but Rice has been one of their best players this season in my opinion.
 
90 + 5min said:
We don’t need to talk about that player in this thread. I’ve said one of most overrated player and WestHam can just laugh about selling him for that money.
Arteta have already quality in that position in Jorginho and Partey. He should use them to get best of Arsenal team.
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Dumb Arteta not playing 42y old Jorginho and injury-plagued Partey every week. What is he thinking...
Daily spamming your nonsensical hate against Rice in every Arsenal thread won't make it true.
 
roonster09 said:
Don't think Arsenal fans are in denial, it's ManUtd fans with some illogical posts.

He has built amazing team, from trying to finish in top 4 to competing for league title, dominate every game except vs City and even against City they look to keep the ball.

It's incredibly difficult to win the league against 115FC, but Arsenal got very close last season and even this season. Look at their team and how they play, why will any Arsenal fan complain about this, except for some attention seeking weirdos on YouTube or Twitter.
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It's really weird. In almost the past 20 years (excluding last season with Arteta), we've hit the 80+ points mark only once, and the last time we hit that mark was 15 years ago. We're now on track to hit that mark 2 years in a row. We've also reached the QF of the Champions League for the first time in 14 years. We're playing some of the best and most consistent football in the last 20 years and keep improving every year.

AshRK said:
Arsenal fans may want to be in denial thinking about this but one has to ask what's the end goal with this manager. Surely 4 and a half season and £700m spent, you would want more than just one FA cup which was 4 years back.

They can still very much win the league this season but if they don't then what's the target for next season or even after that? Can't keep on saying we are running city close
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This "where is he going" argument has been made countless times in this thread. 3 years ago, "his ceiling is 6-7th place and will never do better". 2 years ago, his ceiling was top 4 at best and "will never challenge for the title". Last year, people claimed he just had a "purple patch and will never challenge for the title again".

The fact is, he's the only manager other than Klopp to have challenged City for the title since Guardiola won his first PL 7 years ago. Even Klopp has only managed 1 PL title in those 7 years despite spending 1 Bn in transfers.
 
He is building a good team..
However , until Pep/Klopp are gone he is not winning anything ..
Also Chelsea might come stronger and nobody knows how we will do with Ineos
 
roonster09 said:
Don't think Arsenal fans are in denial, it's ManUtd fans with some illogical posts.

He has built amazing team, from trying to finish in top 4 to competing for league title, dominate every game except vs City and even against City they look to keep the ball.

It's incredibly difficult to win the league against 115FC, but Arsenal got very close last season and even this season. Look at their team and how they play, why will any Arsenal fan complain about this, except for some attention seeking weirdos on YouTube or Twitter.
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Football is eventually about winning if you are to be considered as a top club, otherwise what's the point. Yes, they are controlling games, yes they are playing some good football. No one is denying that and neither was my post to dismiss that.

My question was , what is the end goal here. Are you saying arsenal fans will be content with just finishing 2nd or 3rd for next 2 seasons and winning no major trophies. He has been backed both from time perspective and financial perspective so end rewards should be eventually expected if you are to be treated like a top tier manager or top tier club
 
mathrait said:
It's really weird. In almost the past 20 years (excluding last season with Arteta), we've hit the 80+ points mark only once, and the last time we hit that mark was 15 years ago. We're now on track to hit that mark 2 years in a row. We've also reached the QF of the Champions League for the first time in 14 years. We're playing some of the best and most consistent football in the last 20 years and keep improving every year.



This "where is he going" argument has been made countless times in this thread. 3 years ago, "his ceiling is 6-7th place and will never do better". 2 years ago, his ceiling was top 4 at best and "will never challenge for the title". Last year, people claimed he just had a "purple patch and will never challenge for the title again".

The fact is, he's the only manager other than Klopp to have challenged City for the title since Guardiola won his first PL 7 years ago. Even Klopp has only managed 1 PL title in those 7 years despite spending 1 Bn in transfers.
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Klopp reached 3 cl finals and took city to the end game of the seasons. Arteta if in the next 2 seasons doesn't win 1 pl or cl then questions have to be asked is the point I am making.
 
AshRK said:
Football is eventually about winning if you are to be considered as a top club, otherwise what's the point. Yes, they are controlling games, yes they are playing some good football. No one is denying that and neither was my post to dismiss that.

My question was , what is the end goal here. Are you saying arsenal fans will be content with just finishing 2nd or 3rd for next 2 seasons and winning no major trophies. He has been backed both from time perspective and financial perspective so end rewards should be eventually expected if you are to be treated like a top tier manager or top tier club
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I get what you're saying and it's a fair point. The end goal is winning the biggest trophies. The intermediate goal was to compete for the biggest trophies, which is a level we've now reached despite most writing it off.

I think we're already considered a top club (depending on your definition of that). Bayern are having a poor league campaign, but their squad is packed with fantastic players. And they still began both legs more concerned with containing us than playing their natural game (unfortunately they were successful in doing so and controlled the 2nd half of both ties). Our problem this season is that we're facing opponents who respect us as a team and we haven't always had the answers for it. On the whole we've been more controlled and if we could bring some of last seasons flair and inventiveness, we could kick on. Last season we were too emotional at times. This season, I think we may have overcorrected.

Arteta has spent a lot of money - Pep has spent more. Arteta has a good squad - Pep has a better one. Arteta is one of the best Managers in the league - Pep is one of the best of all time. Turning the question around, what is the end game in sacking Arteta for not being as good as Pep in his first job seeing as no one we hire is going to be as good as Pep?

Or, put another way, imagine we lived in a horrible alternate timeline where Spurs beat Liverpool in the CL Final. And we had cancelled the COVID season like the Eredivisie. So no CL or PL for Klopp. Would Liverpool have been better off as a team if they fired him just because he didn't win one of the big trophies?
 
AshRK said:
Football is eventually about winning if you are to be considered as a top club, otherwise what's the point. Yes, they are controlling games, yes they are playing some good football. No one is denying that and neither was my post to dismiss that.

My question was , what is the end goal here. Are you saying arsenal fans will be content with just finishing 2nd or 3rd for next 2 seasons and winning no major trophies. He has been backed both from time perspective and financial perspective so end rewards should be eventually expected if you are to be treated like a top tier manager or top tier club
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Next season is huge. It's when stagnation may occur. Right now, he's still doing a good job.
 
They lack a physically gifted attacker - a big strong striker or a fast wide dribbler or perhaps both.
 
Daydreamer said:
I get what you're saying and it's a fair point. The end goal is winning the biggest trophies. The intermediate goal was to compete for the biggest trophies, which is a level we've now reached despite most writing it off.

I think we're already considered a top club (depending on your definition of that). Bayern are having a poor league campaign, but their squad is packed with fantastic players. And they still began both legs more concerned with containing us than playing their natural game (unfortunately they were successful in doing so and controlled the 2nd half of both ties). Our problem this season is that we're facing opponents who respect us as a team and we haven't always had the answers for it. On the whole we've been more controlled and if we could bring some of last seasons flair and inventiveness, we could kick on. Last season we were too emotional at times. This season, I think we may have overcorrected.

Arteta has spent a lot of money - Pep has spent more. Arteta has a good squad - Pep has a better one. Arteta is one of the best Managers in the league - Pep is one of the best of all time. Turning the question around, what is the end game in sacking Arteta for not being as good as Pep in his first job seeing as no one we hire is going to be as good as Pep?

Or, put another way, imagine we lived in a horrible alternate timeline where Spurs beat Liverpool in the CL Final. And we had cancelled the COVID season like the Eredivisie. So no CL or PL for Klopp. Would Liverpool have been better off as a team if they fired him just because he didn't win one of the big trophies?
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Again I never said to sack him. I don't think he should be anywhere near sacking right now but eventually you have to win the big one or else you have to wonder if he is just a nearly manager who can't help the side to cross the line.

Put this way if next season you guys again finish 2nd or 3rd with 80 to 85 points and get knocked out in qf without any other trophies and then the season after that same story. What then.That's why I ask what's the end goal here. Can't keep on treating yourself as underdog if you are to be looked as a big club and yes arsenal for me are a big club so their standards would be judged accordingly.

Well if klopp didn't win the cl and pl his legacy at Liverpool would have been looked as an underwhelming stint. The fact he won those big trophies helped him and not helped poch. Imagine if poch had won the cl, he would have been looked differently. Trophies matters and that's the whole point of my original post.
 
AshRK said:
Again I never said to sack him. I don't think he should be anywhere near sacking right now but eventually you have to win the big one or else you have to wonder if he is just a nearly manager who can't help the side to cross the line.

Put this way if next season you guys again finish 2nd or 3rd with 80 to 85 points and get knocked out in qf without any other trophies and then the season after that same story. That's why I ask what's the end goal here. Can't keep on treating yourself as underdog if you are to be looked as a big club and yes arsenal for me are a big club so their standards would be judged accordingly.

Well if klopp didn't win the cl and pl his legacy at Liverpool would have been looked as an underwhelming stint. The fact he won those big trophies helped him and not helped poch. Imagine if poch had won the cl, he would have been looked differently. Trophies matters and that's the whole point of my original post.
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Yeah, that's fair enough.

I think I'm talking less about how Klopp would have been viewed. I'm talking about would Liverpool have been better of without Klopp had he just fallen short. I don't think they would have because he's an excellent Coach. But I totally agree that his legacy is is massively influence by his winning the PL and CL.
 
roonster09 said:
Don't think comparing points tally across season is logical, every season is different. Otherwise we have to come or conclusion that Jose ManUtd was better than Treble winning ManUtd because they got 2 more points.

Point is, you watch Arsenal team and you can see why they are so good, they control games and plays with very good intensity.

They don't have just few good players. Apart from CF and LB, they have very good players everywhere. Till last PL game they had best attacking and defensive record.

They are progressing well, need bit more quality to win the league but they will get there.
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There's no guarantee of that and I believe it's a legitimate question to ask whether Arteta is the one to get them over the line.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Next season is huge. It's when stagnation may occur. Right now, he's still doing a good job.
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Absolutely. Also, mentally players like saka would want to get the big one. One can't keep on resting on "progression" talks.
 
AshRK said:
Again I never said to sack him. I don't think he should be anywhere near sacking right now but eventually you have to win the big one or else you have to wonder if he is just a nearly manager who can't help the side to cross the line.

Put this way if next season you guys again finish 2nd or 3rd with 80 to 85 points and get knocked out in qf without any other trophies and then the season after that same story. What then.That's why I ask what's the end goal here. Can't keep on treating yourself as underdog if you are to be looked as a big club and yes arsenal for me are a big club so their standards would be judged accordingly.

Well if klopp didn't win the cl and pl his legacy at Liverpool would have been looked as an underwhelming stint. The fact he won those big trophies helped him and not helped poch. Imagine if poch had won the cl, he would have been looked differently. Trophies matters and that's the whole point of my original post.
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They're going to have a much better chance at the league next year, provided they strengthen in the right areas in the summer.

City need a refresh, wouldn't surprise me if Pep walks at the end of the season.
Klopp will be gone, Liverpool will drop off.
Utd will still be a mess.
Villa will drop off.
Spurs will be Spurs.
Chelsea are being managed by Poch.

If they don't win it next year, then I'd say it would be valid to look for someone who can take them to that next step.
 
Oranges038 said:
They're going to have a much better chance at the league next year, provided they strengthen in the right areas in the summer.

City need a refresh, wouldn't surprise me if Pep walks at the end of the season.
Klopp will be gone, Liverpool will drop off.
Utd will still be a mess.
Villa will drop off.
Spurs will be Spurs.
Chelsea are being managed by Poch.

If they don't win it next year, then I'd say it would be valid to look for someone who can take them to that next step.
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They were saying that the end of last season.
 
RomfordRed75 said:
£706m spent in 5 years for 0 trophies and they have less points than last season after spending £220m+ in the summer.
But but but they've taken City close the last 2 seasons.
Any big club and he'd be under immense pressure.
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Why?

It looks like he is at a club that has common sense and can see progression. If that doesn't make them a "big club" I doubt they'll sleep over it. Especially when they're going up against a very good City.
 
GoonerBear said:
While others were saying last seasons title challenge was a 1 off.

One seems a bit more correct than the other.
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I actually agree in giving Arteta another chance, I don't see the need for a new manager provided you continue your average level of performance. My point was there needs to be a cut off point.

There's a certain point in time where the same results become a pattern and no longer coincidence or due to external factors (Pep, inexperience, Squad Depth, injuries, etc...).
 
the_cliff said:
I actually agree in giving Arteta another chance, I don't see the need for a new manager provided you continue your average level of performance. My point was there needs to be a cut off point.

There's a certain point in time where the same results become a pattern and no longer coincidence or due to external factors (Pep, inexperience, Squad Depth, injuries, etc...).
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Fair point, but it's hard to put a time scale on it, as each season is different, and each will have it's own context. Everyone will have a different opinion when that point is reached as well. Some might even have it now.
 
GoonerBear said:
Fair point, but it's hard to put a time scale on it, as each season is different, and each will have it's own context. Everyone will have a different opinion when that point is reached as well. Some might even have it now.
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Of course and here's my problem. For some reason the majority of Arsenal fans are the only fans of any top club that think a team needs to have 100% of the squad available at 100% fitness at all times to win a major competition. I'm sorry but in the real world this is simply not the case. Every single team goes through shit on their way to a trophy. If the expectation is that's what you need to win you'll never win. Arsenal, despite the hate you get from the majority of fans in the country (mainly due to the youtube gang) have been the best team domestically in the last 2 seasons overall, not just in terms of style of play but the domination of games. To come out of that with no tophies to show for it is a worry and should be a worry for your fanbase. Of course if you win the league this season this is a moot point but the way it's going...

I'm not knocking Arteta I think he's done a terrific job for you lot but again my point was there has to be a cut off point eventually. Arsenal are in a unique situation where you're literally within touching distance of a major trophy but have a manager that is still under pressure with many questions hanging over his head and the longer you go on without winning a major trophy the more the questions will be asked and rightly so, especially when you take into consideration your overall average performances over the course of the last 2 seasons.
 
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