C’mon GG, remember this is the internet age, where if you don’t finish 1st you get called a fraud and probably deserve to be sacked. Context doesn’t matter.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
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So much this.
City’s standards are obviously very high but this season they do look beatable even under pep. Problem is the rest of the teams aren’t looking up to it to make a great run. Arsenal obviously lack the experience but also to me the winning by mentality. I do expected you to fold sooner compared to last year so kudos for that, but getting all that praise surely you have to win something before that ?
Except absolutely no one called him a fraud or said he deserves to be sacked...
If they win a 4th league title in a row, and perhaps do double-treble... it's really hard to argue he wouldn't be.
Exactly. Experience is what his team (and he himself) is lacking. We don't have the know-how yet to handle the pressure moments etc. But we're getting better all the time and he has shown that he is improving us every season. He has improved heaps as a manager and this season is already much better at squad rotation and making adjustments in-game (though I think he got the Villa game all wrong).I wasn't aware Arteta was so disliked in here.
If I was an Arsenal fan I think I would be cool with him currently, even if it feels bad to lose the lead in the league. He's still a young and rookie manager and it should be very evident how much Arsenal has progressed with him. He's still competing in the UCL while also challenging for the league while also playing some attractive football. I think at this point him and his team are just lacking experience which at this point is something understandable.
Back to back trebles is a big 'if'. Also, just based off the quality of the squad, they're nowhere near the best team in my lifetime (2010/11 Barca).
I don’t think it has anything to do with being a fraud but lack of silverware ultimately results in a drop of confidence in his ability by his own players.
Players buy into projects. Let’s say Arsenal doesn’t win anything this season and the next, what’s to stop your top players from leaving the club, or losing confidence in Arteta’s ability to make them win trophies?
It may be similar to the end of Wenger’s reign where the club was seen as a « plays nice football but stepping stone for other clubs ».
Odegaard is 25, Saliba 23, Saka soon 23. They’re pretty young but unless they start winning or having deep European cup runs, they might start to look elsewhere.
It’s not a dig by the way. Arteta did very good to get Arsenal back to being title contenders, but in football if you don’t win, players will ultimately lose faith
They are beatable of course (we have beat them ourselves for the first time in a long time) but their superior squad depth shows over the course of the season. Completely agree we lack the mentality at this stage - and that's where our inexperience works against us. We're the 3rd youngest team in the league (only Burnley and Chelsea are younger) and like last season, that inexperience is starting to show. Though we've lasted a bit longer this time around, which is an improvement as this season has been harder with Liverpool also in the race (and being in CL). For comparison, Liverpool are 10th youngest and City are 11th.
I wouldn't disagree re: Barca but if they win CL two years in a row (and two trebles), it's not a crazy notion. Well everyone (myself included) is already talking as if they've won the league. They have the edge over Real in the CL and are strong favourites there. And in FA Cup... sorry but I doubt United, Chelsea or Coventry are going to be any match for them.
Actually, someone did. And a good few are at least questioning his position.
City do seem to have dropped a level but the problem is it’s not really translating in the results compared to last season.
They have 73 points in 32 games so are currently on 2.28pts per game.
Last season they got 86 points in 38 games so 2.26pts per game.
Now I accept they droppped points in the final games last season, but they also got 6 points vs us last season vs 1 point this season.
So take out the 2 games vs us and they are on 2.4pts per game vs ‘the rest’ this season, and 2.22pts season.
Unbeaten since early December in the league, Big favourites in semi final of FA Cup, favourites in the Champions League, so yeah, hearin lies the problem. The levels are so high that if they have dropped a level in performances it doesn’t really show in results when it really matters.
At what point does it get questioned then if you have another season without a trophy? In the past 5 years you've spent the third highest in the PL according to transfermarkt. It has to start receiving reward in the form of trophies aside from challenges and playing pretty football at some point.
Not while Pep is at City. It'd be silly to ask questions of Arteta because he kept finishing second to City. Even Klopp is now walking away licking his wounds after a grand total of one title in 9 years.
I said trophies, not just the PL. If he's challenging and winning the FA Cup/League Cup/CL/EL etc then that's enough to give credit in the bank but if you're going season by season and not winning something then at some point you have to question if the man is capable of getting over the line.
They have had early exits in both domestic cups two seasons in a row now. Last season in the EL they had an early exit. This season they're doing a decent job in the CL so far.
Tbf you don't get much credit for winning FA cups and league cups. When they won 4/7 FA cups in the last decade, they still got laughed at. That leaves the league and CL. I agree that he should try to leave a mark in the CL, but even there it's not true that only winning the trophy counts. Took Pep forever at City. Klopp and Simeone lose more CL finals than they win.
Oh so one person? Gotcha.
Questioning his position? I see people pointing out he's spent over 700m and had 4 and a half seasons to win a solitary FA Cup. Next season he'll probably have spent over 800m and be in his 5th full season. People are rightly asking you lot, at what point do you start to actually demand more i.e. winning the league or CL, and not just be happy playing the plucky underdog role. But, you all seem very precious about this line of thinking.
You don't get credit if you win an FA Cup but finish 8th because it could be a one off lucky run. You get credit for consistently going deep in trophies/winning things each season while challenging etc.
The reason Klopp still gets credit is because more often than not when he does challenge but misses out on the PL, they win something else.
For me, when I stop seeing progression in how I envisage the team / squad. I think we all thought Arsenal overachieved a bit last season, many thought it was just a lucky 1 off season.
Also, many thought that playing Champions League football would greatly impact the league form as well as we wouldn’t be able to rotate as much in that. So establishing another title challenge while getting to quarters of Champions League I think is another step in this teams growth.
The FA Cup is another issue. It’s a competition I rate, it’s a competition we have a proud history in, and it’s a competition I want us to do well in. The last 2 seasons we’ve gone out to Man City and Liverpool, so there is a bit of context there, but we really should have beaten Liverpool at home. That game was a bit similar to yesterday’s game actually, we really should have been 2 or 3 goals ahead but for some poor finishing, then we dropped levels 2nd half and got hit with 2 poor late goals. Fine margins I suppose. But yeah, I want better performance in that competition, I was not happy with going out of that the way we did.
The league cup would be nice, but it’s a competition we just haven’t taken seriously. Rightly or wrongly, we play some squad players, hopefully as the squad players improve with each window our performances will, but I’m not putting any expectations on that trophy as again, rightly or wrongly the club doesn’t seem to.
Everyone keeps talking about spend like no-one else is spending. Our gross spend is probably in line with quite a few clubs. If you are talking about Net Spend, then that’s because what we had to sell was either old or shit or a combination of them both, so we sacrificed on out her areas to allow a spend such as the wage bill.
Unfortunately with this Man City and with their manager it’s very difficult to take them on over a 38 game season and in big competitions. They could be on course for back to back trebles, which would mean not only are Premier League teams struggling to better them, the likes of Real Madrid are as well. I don’t like it but it’s the reality of where we are just now.
Spending gets pointed out at all teams. It's the modern era of death by stats and numbers. When Klopp spent a fortune on Allison and VVD, it was regularly mentioned that he was expected to go that one step further. When we eventually sort our shit out, I would expect any manager after 700m and 4 and a half seasons to be at least where you guys are at. When we actually get to that point is another question entirely.
Just an FYI: I don't do net spent. I find gross spend to be far more relevant as it indicates whether a manager has now created a team in his own image.
When did Arteta get anywhere near Pep? You were 5 points behind him by the end of the season, and that's with City dropping 5 points in their final two games after the league was already sewn up.
I think you have a decent shot of getting to the semi final or final of the CL so if you do that and get close to winning the PL (assuming you don't win anything again) it will probably give him another year but I think that 'progression' is getting close to stalling.
It's extremely close to stalling.
In terms of the league, it's not like the last two seasons have been ones where City (or whoever) have basically seemed unbeatable and picked up 30+ wins. Even their CL run has been fairly kind. A group of PSV, Sevilla (14th in La Liga) and Lens (6th in Ligue 1) and needed penalties to get past Porto (3rd in Primeira Liga). Bayern are basically the first challenge they've had, and even then, it's probably the worst season they've had in a decade, and now Arsenal have to go to Munich and get something.
I expect they'll be there or thereabouts again next season, as I think Liverpool will drop off and I can't see any of the chasing pack being ready to mount a title challenge, but I'd say the clock is definitely ticking on Arteta to actually deliver something tangible, or they'll start heavily considering rolling the dice on a replacement.
Of course, they could still go on and win it this season.
Ah yes, the return of Shrodinger’s Title Race™️ - that we somehow simultaneously both completely bottled and were never actually in.
It's like us in Ole's 2nd season. We were 1st in Jan and stayed in 2nd within touching pace of City till that spell where we played 3 games in 5 days (late March) and ended up losing a lot more ground.
It doesn't mean we were near Pep's side when push came to shove though.
It's funny because Ole finished a whopping 10 points behind Pep compared to Artera's 5 points. One is talked about amoung the best, while it's widely accepted that the other wasn't good enough.
Maybe because it was 12 points and that is a pretty sizable gap.
Yes, agreed. This crowbarring of Arteta into Pep/Klopp levels is strange.
Arteta only registered his first win against Pep this season...his 5th season in charge. It might be the same against Klopp.
As another posted mentioned, Klopp gets Liverpool to go deep into several competitions at the same time. To date, we haven't seen that level of squad management of consistency from Arteta.
Klopp has also managed to win a league title and finish within a point of Pep twice.
Arteta most likely would have been 10 points behind Pep last season if Pep hadn't of played weaker starting 11s given they were going or the treble.
Wowzers an additional 2 points. But, one is derided as being awful while the other is weirdly talked about in Pep/Klopp terms. So Arteta managed to finish 7 points better off than Ole. Fantastic stuff.
I wouldn’t say it’s close to stalling yet but we can agree to disagree.
Oles 2nd place finish wasn’t the problem though. It was the the subsequent seasons that were the problem. If he continued to perform at the same or slightly better level in the league like Arteta has the past 2 seasons, then that’s a different argument altogether, and you likely wouldn’t have needed to sack him. If Arteta had dropped off this season, or does next season, then by all means, let’s keep discussing then.
We can discuss now. 2 seasons ago you guys bottled top 4 when the pressure was on. Last season we all know what happened.
It seems this season it's happening again, which is a shame as most people on this board want you to win it (including me).
There's definitely some mental fragility with you players. I also wonder if seeing Liverpool lose earlier in the day made you complacent as well.
Yet, it was as there were red flags everywhere. Yet, it was still only 7 points off what Arteta managed, which was hailed as a fantastic season.
And had Arsenal won at the Etihad and all the other results stayed the same, we would have been Champions. It’s all ifs, buts and maybes.
Do we really think City was going fully tilt with United double-digit points behind? Surely the same logic applies to Ole’s points gap (it could have been more) as it does to Arteta’s?
That's not the same though. Pep played weaker starting 11s given they had the league sewn up and they ended up dropping 5 points.
Surely they had the league sewn up even earlier with United 12 points behind them?
You're making my point for me. That when push came to shove, we weren't really in it, and it's why no one would put Ole in the same bracket as Pep and Klopp.
There are lot's of reasons I (and most people) wouldn't put Ole in the same bracket as Pep and Klopp. The primary one being that he isn't a particularly talented Coach. And no, Ole wasn't really in a title race... because he finished 12 points off of top spot.
You could argue that Arsenal also were never in the title race. I'd disagree, but it's not an unreasonable point of view. I just find it funny that Arteta get's criticised for bottling a title race by the very same people who insist he was never in one.
I meant discuss in comparison to Ole. It’s not the same as we haven’t had the same drop off that Ole has had yet, so the 2 situations aren’t the same.
Of course we can control discuss and analyse Arteta, I’ve already given my opinion on that.
I don’t think there was any complacency, as we started well and should have scored 2 or 3 goals if we take our chances. I’ve seen the problem a few times now, against Liverpool in the cup was a very similar game. Football is a game of fine margins, if you don’t take your chances your always liable to get punished.
Our home form in general is a bit of a concern to me, I must admit.
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Any other manager will have a hard chance winning the Epl while Pep and Klopp are around..
He will have his chance once they move out
He will have his chance once they move out
There is still a chance this season! One slip from city and it’s all game on again for Arsenal and Liverpool