Melville Red
Full Member
He signed a new contract in february IIRC so he has a £60m release clause. Better option than Stevie Wonder we have now.
He signed a new contract in february IIRC so he has a £60m release clause. Better option than Stevie Wonder we have now.
Ignoring the fact he has played 9 more games than Allison I see?He really isnt, the fact he has more clean sheets than Allisson despite having no defence or midfield in front off him proves that as do some of his other stats.
Well you have watched Onana single handedly throw us out of the CL group stages and somehow still think DDG was as bad last season. My eyes are fine, I think yours are okey too, just your biased opinion and obviously not accepting the reality of how bad Onana actually has been for the club. All you can hang on is, stats stats stats, like a blind man to a walking stick.I wouldn't call your eyes "healthy", given that they see Onana as disastrous but DDG last season as quite good given he was, both to the eye and according to statistics, even worse. This is the problem with relying on the eye test - you're clearly looking through a biased lens that will lead you to overrate the player you like, and underrate the player you don't. Stats help the more rational among us temper that bias with objectivity.
It's widely reported how almost all of the big clubs have embraced data to make decisions, and how the role of scouts is changing. Even we made a big push towards being more data-driven when Murtough took over the footballing department. You may want to remain in the dark ages, and that's fine, but football is leaving you behind.
So, basically what you are saying is that we are all blind, our eyes lie and Onana is really good.I wouldn't call your eyes "healthy", given that they see Onana as disastrous but DDG last season as quite good given he was, both to the eye and according to statistics, even worse. This is the problem with relying on the eye test - you're clearly looking through a biased lens that will lead you to overrate the player you like, and underrate the player you don't. Stats help the more rational among us temper that bias with objectivity.
It's widely reported how almost all of the big clubs have embraced data to make decisions, and how the role of scouts is changing. Even we made a big push towards being more data-driven when Murtough took over the footballing department. You may want to remain in the dark ages, and that's fine, but football is leaving you behind.
Statman Dave is a fraud.I don't remember a quoted percentage of increased possession, but I do remember the hype especially from Beth and Statman Dave.
It's easy enough to punch down on Onana now, but to be fair he was never sold to us as a brilliant shot-stopper. I would say he's a midtable PL keeper in terms of shot-stopping and above average with his footwork. But where the hype was out of control was the idea that his footwork would increase our possession and the quality of our shots on goal. I'm sorry, but you could put the lovechild of prime Allison and prime Ederson in goal for this United side and we'd still be overrun in midfield and shit our pants in the final third.
It's a tough choice really, on one hand we have data from opta used by the league and clubs, which is essential for informed decision making, and on the other we have the eyes of an overtly biased dinosaur who refuses any evidence that doesn't support their opinion.Well you have watched Onana single handedly throw us out of the CL group stages and somehow still think DDG was as bad last season. My eyes are fine, I think yours are okey too, just your biased opinion and obviously not accepting the reality of how bad Onana actually has been for the club. All you can hang on is, stats stats stats, like a blind man to a walking stick.
And yeah Murtough's data driven approach has brought wonders to our recruitment department doesn't it? And yeah data is used and will always be used, but even in the scouts ever evolving nature and roles, they still hold the final say and obviously having the good ones makes the difference to being a top club and a club run by amateurs like Manchester United has been in the last years. Even ETH seems absolutely deluded and using "we only have 4 defeats this calendar year" "or the data is this or that" when we absolutely look as one of the worst coached sides in the league. Wake up and smell the shit, Onana has been absolutely woeful and probably the worst GK we have had since Roy Carroll.
Why are people still making this claim when its simply not true?Well you have watched Onana single handedly throw us out of the CL group stages
Because people love hyperboleWhy are people still making this claim when its simply not true?
So basically what you are saying is "insert strawman here".So, basically what you are saying is that we are all blind, our eyes lie and Onana is really good.
How is what we actually see a biased lens.
I get the impression that you don't know how data and stats work, where is the benchmark for his performance this season, you cannot base it on last season, because he wasn't in the Prem, so the data is flawed.
You cannot base it on his data at Inter, because it is incomplete, only 24 games played last season.
I would agree with you if;
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at inter
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at Ajax
He wasn't making the same cockups he was at International level
He has the same defence in front of him that De Gea had last season, and he's only got 8 clean sheets against De Gea's 17
Or perhaps you've forgotten we tried to sell off Maguire because he was so bad last season, Varanne spent a lot of time injured, Martinez was out for periods, why do you think we signed Evans in the summer?
The fact is there was a lot more too it than just Onana making mistakes, Rashford and Casemiro cost us 6 points by stupidly getting themselves sent off in we would have won but ended up losing and there was the absolutely god awful performance at home to FC Bayern when we needed to win but only managed 1 shot on target and lost 1-0.Because people love hyperbole
I think it's hilarious they're claiming you don't understand statistics while being under the impression that clean sheets are an accurate measurement of goal keeping performance and that our defence this year was the same as last year. The defence is absolutely not the same and certainly not performing to the same level and that's before we take into account the fact that there is no protection for the back and that the team are conceding an unprecedented amount of shots.So basically what you are saying is "insert strawman here".
If you want to dispute an argument you made up, you can do that without quoting me, hell you don't even need to be on a forum.
We can quite happily compare goals prevented based on xGOT across different goalkeepers playing in different seasons, as it's based on the quality of shots faced that were on target. It isn't a perfect measurement, that doesn't exist, but it is a good one. Suffice to say I get the same impression about you.
I agree with your premise but I'm not sure if I'd be using the Casemiro red card that came from Onana's mistake. We were generally crap in the Champions League, our games had the level of chaos we've seen in all competitions in 2024, but Onana was also absolutely dreadful and was one of the biggest factors for us going out in the group stage albeit not the only one by any means. He's been better since albeit still unconvincing and disappointing given expectations and the money spent.The fact is there was a lot more too it than just Onana making mistakes, Rashford and Casemiro cost us 6 points by stupidly getting themselves sent off in we would have won but ended up losing and there was the absolutely god awful performance at home to FC Bayern when we needed to win but only managed 1 shot on target and lost 1-0.
What are the stats saying about his CL performances?Why are people still making this claim when its simply not true?
It did come after Onana's mistake yes but in turn Onana's mistake came from Lindelofs mistake putting him under unneccessary pressure and Onana didnt force Casemiro to stupidly go flying in to the back of the defender and conceed a penalty and red card.I agree with your premise but I'm not sure if I'd be using the Casemiro red card that came from Onana's mistake. We were generally crap in the Champions League, our games had the level of chaos we've seen in all competitions in 2024, but Onana was also absolutely dreadful and was one of the biggest factors for us going out in the group stage albeit not the only one by any means.
Ah I see.So basically what you are saying is "insert strawman here".
If you want to dispute an argument you made up, you can do that without quoting me, hell you don't even need to be on a forum.
We can quite happily compare goals prevented based on xGOT across different goalkeepers playing in different seasons, as it's based on the quality of shots faced that were on target. It isn't a perfect measurement, that doesn't exist, but it is a good one. Suffice to say I get the same impression about you.
I agree, there were several reasons.The fact is there was a lot more too it than just Onana making mistakes, Rashford and Casemiro cost us 6 points by stupidly getting themselves sent off in we would have won but ended up losing and there was the absolutely god awful performance at home to FC Bayern when we needed to win but only managed 1 shot on target and lost 1-0.
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Only his long passing. And most importantly he is significantly less involved in the buildup if you look at the total number of passes.Dave’s passing is better?
Ah I see.
Attempt to defeat sarcastic logic with insults.
Right so by saying it's not perfect, you admit the data is flawed.
I've never claimed to be perfect, you however do.
Go back to your book of stats and keep wondering why we are 8th in the table when they say we are first, maybe your eyes are lying to you.
Good day.
I'm done proving you wrong.
I agree. We have more pressing priorities. Happy for him to have a full season with what should be upgraded CB's and a Casemiro (#6) replacement that can all stay fit - hopefully it'll make a world of difference.Pretty sure everyone was saying DDG didn’t work out in his few couple of seasons. The trouble with a lot of fan bases. They don’t give players enough time to adjust to a new league and new players. The defence haven’t helped him and having a different back line every single game.
Xg is based on the position where the shot was taken, it does not take into consideration if the shot was straight to the keeper, or if the shot was taken properly. If you look at some of the goals he's conceding you'll realize how bad his technique really is.Tweet
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Yeah it's just projection from folks who actually don't understand statistics and disagree with the conclusion that the stats inevitably lead to.I think it's hilarious they're claiming you don't understand statistics while being under the impression that clean sheets are an accurate measurement of goal keeping performance and that our defence this year was the same as last year. The defence is absolutely not the same and certainly not performing to the same level and that's before we take into account the fact that there is no protection for the back and that the team are conceding an unprecedented amount of shots.
De Gea was statically distinctly average in the league last year but could pull off the odd worldy which is I presume what people are remembering aside from the errors, not coming for crosses and being unable to pass the ball 5 yards.
Onana is a strange one. He looks odd and often isn't positioned properly and has made high profile errors. He really looked off it in the last game and arguably could have saved Two to three of those goals.
However, he is in top 5/6 for save % and performance against post shot xG. With a settled defence and facing a lot less shots I'm not sure he'd be a huge issue. He's certainly way down on the list of priorities with regard to upgrades imo.
We need better than just OK if we're going to challenge for leagues and CLs in the near future.Nah he will be OK once we have a consistent back 4. We have other areas to adress (right wing, CM, manager etc)
I still don’t understand how that stats have said he’s saved 6 more than he was expected to but we’ve seen that he’s let in Atleast that amount that he should have saved. Where is the maths in those stats.Yeah it's just projection from folks who actually don't understand statistics and disagree with the conclusion that the stats inevitably lead to.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, I can understand why Onana doesn't really pass the eye test for a lot of folks, and I'm not convinced by his technique, but as well as a few howlers he went through a period of good form too, which gets forgotten (or ignored by those with an agenda).
On top of that, the stats simply don't lie, he's made a lot of saves and prevented a lot of goals, much more so than DDG last year.
Except PSxG does, and we have numbers for that too.Xg is based on the position where the shot was taken, it does not take into consideration if the shot was straight to the keeper, or if the shot was taken properly. If you look at some of the goals he's conceding you'll realize how bad his technique really is.
I don't think it's confusion, but I do agree that it's very tempting to try a long range shot when you are completely free to do it instead of moving forward to battle it out with the CBs.Theory: oppositions are so surprised by Man Utd's disappearing midfield that they confusedly shoot too early from saveable distances rather than going in closer for the kill, giving Onana lots of saveable shots to hide his mistakes in.
Agreed. His improvement in terms of handling the ball with his feet has been negated by his worse shot stopping than a reduced De Gea.The bottom line to all of this, regardless of whether Onana is shite or not, is that he certainly hasn't improved the team one bit or quelled the fan infighting about the goalkeeper position. At absolute best he was a £45m sidegrade from De Gea, who could have been kept on for free on reduced terms. As a piece of transfer business it has to go down as an utter failure. There's no other logical way to look at it.
No we couldn't have. He was the cheaper option.Terrible keeper. We could have got Costa from Porto for the same price.
It's because it was working for him at Ajax so they stopped their attempts to coach it out of him.It's the very basic goalkeeping technique which is just not there? It's weird how a keeper makes it to the top level with his ability at the fundamental aspects of the game.
Thought it was odd how inter who got impatient and kept pushing the transferNo we couldn't have. He was the cheaper option.
We should have kept De Gea and Kovar and have the latter play in the cups. Like he's doing now for Leverkusen.There are ways that this could have been managed:
- We could have looked for a keeper that was among the best in class instead of someone who Ten Hag knew.
- We could have given De Gea an year extension and got a young talented keeper to take over for him. Kinda of like what we did with De Gea.
Over the last XI years our problem has been that we decide to recruit a worse player than the player we need to move on from. Rojo for Evans, Falcao for Chicha, Maguire for Smalling, AWB for Dalot, Onana for DeGea...there is a pattern.