I don't think I can argue this point either unfortunately. There are some points in here I think are maybe fair and some that I am probably not able to say anything about. We'll have to leave that there unfortunately.
Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag
- Thread starter Nickelodeon
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Concise and well said. Although, it spans back to the start of preseason.
The players and injuries are the problem, not the manager. How many managers have these players gotten sacked now? Change takes time. Look at Arsenal. People were crying for Arteta to be sacked a few years ago.
Ten Hag actually performed miracles to get Top4 with a decrepit Martial and bargain bin Weghorst as his main strikers last season. He was lucky that Rashford delivered the best season of his life to paper over our vast deficiency upfront that goes back to the Ronaldo fiasco.
Again you are totally missing the point (probably deliberately), that Ten Hag was then completely shafted by Arnold et al over Greenwood last summer.
Whether Greenwood would have performed (he's had a very good season in Spain IMO) and your moral tangents are completely irrelevant to the fact that Ten Hag's whole summer of squad planning upfront was completely undone in the final weeks of the transfer window by the club U-turn.
That our managers are set up to fail by incompetence at board level is a recurring theme and Ten Hag is no different, the hope is that the new regime would do better.
I would have given a chance if we wouldnt have crashed completely lately. We had an ok spell this season and if that trend continued, ok. But we now have not just a few issues, but a ton, and that makes it impossible for him to stay
It wouldn't mate plus the forum has rules for that sort of thing.
But no worries I think I understand now.
Come on, bud. One freaking CL run to the semi-finals where they got beaten by Poch's Spurs is not a proof of anything. Plenty of smaller teams have similar CL runs from time to time. It's not something unique to ETH and that Ajax team.fair point, but I think it was the closest we've been to a recognisable style of play that we've seen here - so I'm holding on to it!
Well in the CL some pretty impressive ones beating Real and Juve. In the league PSV had players like Gakpo, Dumfries, Malen who are European level. Feyenoord had Senesi and Sinisterra who are doing well in the Prem. It's not as cut and dry as most people think, they didn't even qualify for the CL before he came in. I have no problem in saying how shite he's been here, but not sure why we're so dismissive of what he did previously all of a sudden.
No, it happens all the time. Klopp didn't want Salah, he wanted Brandt and the DOF stepped in and the rest is history. I think we could see improvement with a better reshaping of the squad, that doesn't mean I am not appalled at how we played against Palace and not concerned with his decision making and set up with what he has.
He is clearly stubborn, much like LVG, but LVG isn't a bad manager and with the players in his vision he has had success. Now much like LVG, is that vision how United want to play? I think Ten Hags is closer to a United style that LVGs ever was, but if Wilcox agrees with the principles Ten Hag espouses, then we have to believe he can purchase players to suit that. It does mean not letting him pursue De Jong again and probably investing in a CB good enough on the ball as Martinez, because we can't rely on him to be fit.
Again, I will repeat, this doesn't mean I want him to stay at all costs. I would prefer Tuchel and we buy players for Tuchel and the agreed vision. I do NOT want to sack him to bring in Potter or Southgate to do that.
No doubt we would be better than this season from hell if we get a fitter and a better squad next season. However, that is true with anyone. Again, I keep coming back to the same point (sorry for being a pedant), can we envisage challenging for the bigger trophies under him based on the two seasons he has been here? The answer for me is a clear NO. That's why I don't think it makes any sense to let him be in charge next season. We'd waste another season going nowhere. I rather we get a younger, more ambitious coach who can build towards making us challengers in 2-3 years.
I am not that keen on Tuchel. He is a good coach and a decent track record but I would really like us to go with someone younger this time. I mention it every other post of mine that I would love it if we go for either McKenna or Motta. I think both would be excellent options.
I also don't buy this assertion that there is no one available. Yes, there is no obvious choice like a Pep or a Klopp that we could hire, but there are plenty of young coaches that we could go for provided a good structure can help them with the squad clear out and recruitment.
Playing young players is not the same as developing young players. Sure, it's better than a manager not playing them at all, but developing these youngsters the right way is actually one of the reasons I want ETH gone. The way he is utilising Mainoo in particular is almost the exact opposite of how he should be developed. We finally have a young player coming through who is tailor-made to playing and contributing in a dominant midfield, and the manager has no interest whatsoever in playing that way. Instead he just plops him in the middle of this chaos that his tactics demand. There's no midfield structure, he's not learning positional discipline, there's little interplay between players...it's just shit football that has no benefit and ultimately could lead to him not developing properly. Hojlund and Garnacho also, to a lesser extent.
Indeed, to hear the way some waffle on you'd think Garnacho and Mainoo were just 2 average youth players that Ten Hag has 'developed' into top talents.
We conceded 10 more than City and Newcastle.
Last I saw, our defensive line this season is deeper than it ever was under Ole. And we've done it all season long. So it's obviously a deliberate tactic by ETH. Just like pushing two midfielders very high, something that McTominay has never done before in his career but you seem to to be saying he's randomly decided to do this season? And that all our other midfielders do as well, whether it's Mainoo, Mount or Eriksen? It's blatantly what ETH is telling them to do.
Comparing ETH’s situation to Artetas is the most comparable. A big club falling away after a post legendary manager. Arteta was almost sacked at the same point as ETH is now, they lost a semi v Villarreal and he was accused of being tactically inept, poor signing etc.
Arteta finished
8th
8th
5th
2nd
2nd (likely this season)
Cleared out some shite, but crucially they have a good football structure at Arsenal for a few years now. Give ETH one more season, but my fear is he’ll be gone by November and it will be another scrap for CL football with more ups and downs than the Yorkshire Dales . . .
Arteta finished
8th
8th
5th
2nd
2nd (likely this season)
Cleared out some shite, but crucially they have a good football structure at Arsenal for a few years now. Give ETH one more season, but my fear is he’ll be gone by November and it will be another scrap for CL football with more ups and downs than the Yorkshire Dales . . .
Smaller teams that have, their managers have generally been pretty good!
I don't disagree with your assessment, but there is a bit of me that does think he could - albeit a very small part. I just think we need to set the vision above the manager and the core of the squad, then find an ambitious coach that matches. I just don't see anyone that fits with the players currently and unsure what we've decided we're aiming for as a style of play. I don't see how we can make an informed decision when going for a young and inexperienced coach - hence why I'd be for Tuchel instantly.
I think it's too soon for McKenna, Motta would be great, but he's likely off to Juve. I'd like Iraola, but I think he needs another season. Seb Hoeness looks like the next big bundesliga manager and Nice's Farioli looks very interesting and in the INEOS group. They all are very unlikely to be available/want to come this summer, we aren't attractive to a young coach as we have no structure. I think we have at least have to have a year of good structure before we become the hottest job on the planet and the options we can go for widen massively. That's why I am pro Tuchel, as he has pedigree to command respect and also help an inexperienced/newly formed football operations team
You're entitled to your opinion, but ten Hag performed miracles and Greenwood is having a very good season are simply not true.
We're not going to agree here. Wear your ten Hag pin with pride.
Morals, heh.
That is not something I will criticize ETH for - Mainoo has played alongside McT, Eriksen, Casemiro and Bruno - players who combined have 1000 league matches and 300-400 internationals. I will not blame ETH for the fact that the majority of these players have hung Mainoo out to dry with shitty performances. The way I see it - both Mainoo and Garnacho have taken huge steps because of ETH - not despite of him
No, they generally weren’t (at top level), that is the thing.
1999-2001 Valencia made 2 finals under Cuper. Did not have particular success at Inter, did not manage at top level afterwards
2000-2001 Leads under O’Leary made semis. He did nothing of note in his career afterwards
2001-2002 Bayer made CL final under Topmöller. He never even managed, let alone had success on a higher level.
2003-2004 Monaco made final under Deschamps. He had a successful national team career in management but no success at club level afterwards
Porto final under Jose - this one was by a top coach, no question
Deportivo semifinal under Irureta - he did not have success elsewhere
2004-2005 PSV made semis under Hiddink - decent career at national level afterwards, no notable managerial spells except Chelsea interim, so he was kind of on the decline at the time already
2005-2006 Pellegrini made semis with Villarreal, good coach that got top jobs afterwards but hardly a top one
2009-2010 Lyon made Semis under Puel. Did not manage on a higher level after.
2010-2011 Schalke made semis under Magath/Rangnik. Neither have shown themselves to be able to successfully manger a higher level club
2012-2013 Dortmund under Klopp made finals. Top manager no question
2013-2014 & 2015-2016 - Athletico under Simeone - top manager no question
2016-2017 Monaco under Jardim made semis. He is managing in Qatar now.
2017-2018 - Roma made semis under Eusebio di Francesco who is managing mighty Frosione now.
2018-2019 - Ajax with EtH made semis. Poch beat him and made final with Spurs - hardly anyone would want him to manage us now
2019-2020 Leipzig made semis under Nagelsmann who is good, but also Lyon made semis under Rudi Garcia who was managing in Saudi Arabia in a few years
2021-2022 Villareal under Emery made semis, good coach but no particular success at a higher level yet
so plenty of smaller clubs made CL semis over recent decades, most of the managers have gone to do a grand total of nothing at a higher level afterwards. Plus this is ignoring managers who are nowhere near good but made semis/finals/won the whole thing with a bigger clubs like Di Matteo or Grant etc etc. it is a cup competition, this happens.
We can debate on what is a good manager and what is a small club but the big picture is clear I think. Making CL semis with a smaller club is a plus on managers CV but hardly indicative of whether he will come good at higher levels. For every Klopp there are 2-3 jardims, puels and Rudi Garcias
If they keep ETH it’s because they identify his style of play as what they want going forward. (Ajax ETH) So the players that have been bought for him plus new signings and you’ve pretty much got a ETH team. Sell the players that have been here too long first and replace them with quality. Build squad depth and support around him.. then judge.
Fair enough but they are minor points anyway - glad you agree that Ten Hag was completely shafted by the whole Greenwood thing as that was my main point after all
All those players no matter who plays, play the same way. So clearly they are following the managers instructions, and the manager is instructing the attacking midfielders to push up and leave the DM exposed.
The playstyle of leaving the entire middle of the pitch wide open and not caring about controlling the tempo of the match is a result of how ETH actively has us set up. It's why it's so much worse this season than it ever was before, even when most of our first choice players are available. All the players are being 'hung out to dry' because of it.
I want him gone - so I am not defending him. But if you look at us last season compared to this season - with almost the same players, clearly it's not only the manager. Casemiro and Eriksen look 10 years older over the summer and a player like Rashford can't be bothered to run.
Thank you for the effort I was not willing to go to
.It's a fair to say he might be a Jardim and not anything better. I'm not using it as an excuse to keep him, I just don't think people should play it down, just like you shouldn't with Jardim. As I've said, I'd prefer someone like Tuchel for this very reason and not a Jardim. Sorry Jardim, you took a battering to make a point.
That is a very generous to EtH interpretation of things. You sound as if Greenwood were some ready-made world class player who was ready to drag the team on his own, not a young still developing player after 18 months of no football. Even if he were a world class player - pinning the “entire squad planning” on him would be unwise to put it mildly.
I do not believe for a moment that it was communicated to EtH that “Greenwood is coming back 100%”. It was probably “likely” or “we will do our best”. Even Murtough is not that stupid.
Even if it (stupidly) was communicated like that - EtH should not have been that naive to rely on him coming back to such a significant extent. Again, given his age and long absence a squad rotation player is an absolute maximum you could reasonably expect.
If he were suspended weeks/days before the end of the transfer window- different story and you can maybe use it as excuse is a manager. But this excuse could only be used by Ralf, not by EtH.
No serious organisation would accept “I just relied on X giving me assurances that something good is likely going to happen, therefore no check, no contingency plan” from an employee with a position of such authority on a performance review regarding a critical issue. He is paid 9m a year ffs.
Last edited:
I myself am pretty ambivalent towards ETH, actually more leaning to bringing in somebody else in the summer. The issue for me though, who would that be. Despite that, I think, the situation is described a little too shallow.
I agree with you, what we are seeing in terms of players behaviour is part of the plan. The individual skillset and quality plays a role, too, but predominantly, there isn't a lot that speaks for players abandoning ETHs plan and instructions on a huge scale. To me, it looks like this: when he came in, he set us up relatively basic, as some say it was mostly Ole-Ball, more reserved, sitting deep trying to hit opponents with fast transitions. It worked reasonably well but there is a good chance, that this was a bit of compromise for ETH. This season, from pre-season onwards he is trying to take a more pro-active approach. Forcing high turnovers with pressing, having multiple players join the attack. Obviously this will put more pressure to our own ability to defend transitions and it will also not work from the get-go as our players aren't used (some probably even aren suited) to that kind of play. The plan isn't anything extraordinary, many teams try to do that, the reason it isn't working was always that it would take some time for players to find their roles, create synergies. And to personally, I was expecting a few heavy beatings as well. Because obviously it is harder to defend when you have pushed up and the opponents hits you when you are trying to go forward.
So, even without off-pitch factors, there was a good chance of us not hitting the ground running attempting something that hasn't been attempted in our team before. But then the injuries hit, preventing players to get used to their roles. Preventing synergies to form because players were playing one position on one weekend and another position the weekend after. This huge gap we suffer so often in our midfield isn't simply "bad tactics" or "bad players" - it is a lack of synchronization. Attackers push up high to press but midfield and defense is reluctant to push up as well. So the injuries definitely are a very relevant factor if we want to think about ETHs quality.
Now many say ETH should have adapted, he should have stopped trying to go for that plan when the injuries were there. And I can see the reasoning behind hit, I agree with that. But iirc ETH said in an interview, that he didn't want to change the plan because he knew it would trigger another adaptation period only to go back to his initial plan for the season when the injured players came back. He took a bit of a gamble here, and it didn't pay off at all. Because the injuries came again and again.
This isn't me defending ETH, I am fine with getting rid of him in the summer as long as we are confident to have a good and suitable successor available. But I think it is important to really consider all relevant factors. There are fans around here calling for Ole again. And maybe a manager like that, with a basic game plan would be able to stabilize the team again. But to me it is obvious that this simply would be a side step. Football moved on, teams play more collectively now, Manchester United is like 10 years behind all that. We have to update that. And this will hurt to a degree and be accompanied with bad results here and there. It is a legit standpoint to want ETH gone because he seems inflexible, because he doesn't adapt and doesn't seem to be able to get the best out of our players. Thats fine, but "mere" bad results or "embarassing this and that" are very shortsighted and emotional standpoints. I am afraid we can't allow us to have that. The club made so many mistakes in the last decade, there is no way out without some suffering. Mourinho, Ole were all attempts to "at least stabilize" the club. It only delayed the inevitable.
Getting Ten Hag out is the easier choice. I cannot know what is going on behind the scenes but it is clear Ten Hag has done a lot of work here.
Letting him continue is committing to an attacking strategy, that is a pro for me. It could be a mistake.
Letting him continue is committing to an attacking strategy, that is a pro for me. It could be a mistake.
This has been a problem for many years now. We are not ruthless enough. I doubt any club with similar ambitions show their players or manager as much patience.
Bit of a dramatic premise for me. Why would that be the case? Ten Hag has had been given resources to do his job in the same way that any manager is - he's asked for players and been given them, and has brought in his own coaching staff. Broadly speaking, what do other managers have that he hasn't had? All managers will face challenges in their job. Why is he failing to such an extent?
Poor performances on the pitch must, to some degree, be a result of what's going on in training and the tactical set up. That's the manager fault.
The club has been very badly ran. The manager isn't good enough to do the job. Both can be true and on available evidence they are.
Based on what?
This sounds easier than it is though. The publicized ambition might be clear for us, but what actually is the internal one? What are ETHs objectives? We shouldn't make the mistake of assuming, every manager always has the expectation to win as much as possible as the only target. And you need to know that before you can really give an answer on how well or no well a manager does.
I agree overall, the club hasn't been pragmatic enough, towards players, towards managers. But simply starting over every year or every other year also isn't going to cut it. I wrote a longer comment above, so be ensured that I am not invested in ETH but getting rid simply for getting rid isn't pragmatic. You may call it ruthless - somebody else might just call impulsive and that is what brought us into the mess after all.
Are you sure?
Onana - his mistake
Bayındır - irrelevant
Malacia - injured all season
Lisandro - injured all season
Evans - not who he wanted
Kambwala - young player
Casemiro - was world class for a year and suddenly declined out if the blue
Amrabat - not who he wanted
Mainoo - young player, doing well
Eriksen - declined
Mount - injured half of the season but arguably a mistake
Antony - his mistake
Garnacho - young player, doing well
Højlund - young player
so out of those 14, actually only 2 were, maybe 2.5 with Mount kinda, a mistake, the rest are either injured, not players he wanted, young players, or players who declined for no predictable reasons.
14-21% (whether you count Mount as a mistake) miss rate is actually low in recruitement. Others have done worse. And as for prices paid - that is mostly on idiots above him, not on Ten Hag
See how different numbers look when you put context next to them and try to not be biased?
Very good post.
Doing great with a small(er) club is great and might give that manager a top job afterwards. I wanted EtH here.
But it doesn’t mean that they get a free pass afterwards. Most of those managers do not succeed in a higher level. So while it made sense to hire EtH, same as it made sense for Chelsea to hire AvB, it hasn’t worked out. Move along.
And as you mentioned EtH’s success was matched by another dozens of managers, from which only two (Mourinho and Klopp) turned out to be top managers, another couple were quite decent afterwards and half were pretty bad. By no means any guarantee that reaching semis with a club like Ajax means success in a higher level.
Has he though? He would have asked for Kane and Rice and instead got Hojlund and Amrabat. He wanted FdJ and got Casemiro. He has poor medical and training facilities. He spend a year hobbled under the Glazers, and FFP means they will cast a long shadow unpicking the Woodward mess. He inherited a highly dysfunctional squad in ways too long to list. He's been tasked to transition to a modern high press style with even when everyone is fit a very thin squad of players capable of doing it. He got rid of Ronaldo and De Gea but he still has several players who can't do it and who are only playing because there's nobody else.
TBH it's a miracle we're doing as well as we are.
Unpopular opinion but I think Onana will come good. His mistakes are a psychological result of not having any faith in his defence and the sheer number of attacks he has to deal with.
Obviously ETH wasn't happy with the way he played last season? 2 cup finals 3rd in prem could have got 2nd imo.. out of Europa league should have done better in that as well..
This season he seems to have ripped up that blueprint and made a different one altogether, and it hasn't worked!
Ineos- Glazers have and are making Changes in the boardroom, backroom staff, that tells me that ETH is either staying and they want him to carry on with the project? Or he's going after FA cup final.
Imo he's gone I think the players know he's gone as well, some of them are just waiting for new guy to get a clean slate..
We got Rashford wtf has happened to him Sancho he pissed him off . He's bought bad to say the least then tries to defend it , Mount's been a car crash Antony not much better, Onana again not good enough.. Ole bought Varane Mainoo ,Garnacho already here!
He maybe a half decent coach ie like B . Roger's is but not a top quality manager ...his time is up sorry.. to me he's a stubborn fecker and sometimes it works against you if your not willing to listen to others..
This season he seems to have ripped up that blueprint and made a different one altogether, and it hasn't worked!
Ineos- Glazers have and are making Changes in the boardroom, backroom staff, that tells me that ETH is either staying and they want him to carry on with the project? Or he's going after FA cup final.
Imo he's gone I think the players know he's gone as well, some of them are just waiting for new guy to get a clean slate..
We got Rashford wtf has happened to him Sancho he pissed him off . He's bought bad to say the least then tries to defend it , Mount's been a car crash Antony not much better, Onana again not good enough.. Ole bought Varane Mainoo ,Garnacho already here!
He maybe a half decent coach ie like B . Roger's is but not a top quality manager ...his time is up sorry.. to me he's a stubborn fecker and sometimes it works against you if your not willing to listen to others..
It’s a miracle we’re at 8th place in the league? We should really be thankful to Ten Hag for this incredible, monumental achievement. Maybe a statue outside Old Trafford isn’t out of question? Where would be without his legendary managerial skills?
I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The difference between this season and last season makes it exceedingly obvious it's mostly because of the manager changing his style. Last season we largely continued playing how we did under Ole, with the same formation (4231) and basic style. Martinez and Eriksen meant there was a bit more ball-playing in there and Casemiro a bit more defensive ability in midfield, but overall it was largely the same as we played under Ole.
This season ETH quite obviously changed how he set up the team, with a 4141 formation with the attack pushed up while the defence sits deeper which of course leaves a huge space in the middle. It's why he bought Mount, a player that wouldn't have had any place in last seasons formation. It's why McTominay has suddenly changed how he plays and the positions he takes up. Even Eriksen is pushing up higher and playing more as an attacker than a midfielder. The change was obvious right from preseason, and has continued ever since.
Casemiro has declined, but the fact that he's being left all alone in midfield is setting him up to fail and making him look even worse than he really is. The opposition just cut straight through us and run at him with numbers time after time. Not even prime Casemiro would have been able to cope with it properly, let alone one who is physically declining. And being asked to do that constantly is probably leading to him declining faster than he normally would have. Rashford hasn't really changed his effort level or defensive contribution between seasons; the difference is his effectiveness when on the ball.
That is possible
Personal opinion - I dont think he will become the level we need but he probably will significantly improve in a better team and when he settles in, I agree
I'm not suggesting for a second he will survive the summer. He won't. But all the same problems will await the next human sacrifice we toss into the volcano of dreams. Expect somebody who values money over their reputation.
Yes this is a central point. He was brought in to change the style. That was his whole purpose. Retreat from that and you have all the old problems back again.
My unpopular opinion is that we're not as far off being competitive as we think we are, whether we change ten hag or not.
There's been a huge lack of belief this year, with it only being turned on when we're trailing occasionally, and weve massively missed real leaders like Martinez and casemiro (whos stock has no doubt fallen in the eyes of teammates, after he looked so assured last season). While only a part of it, the injuries genuinely have been utterly ridiculous.
So whether it's ten hag or not, I do think onana, dalot, martinez, shaw, mainoo, garnacho, fernandes, mount, hojlund are all good players. We clearly need 3 or 4 excellent additions but not the enormous overhaul some suggest
There's been a huge lack of belief this year, with it only being turned on when we're trailing occasionally, and weve massively missed real leaders like Martinez and casemiro (whos stock has no doubt fallen in the eyes of teammates, after he looked so assured last season). While only a part of it, the injuries genuinely have been utterly ridiculous.
So whether it's ten hag or not, I do think onana, dalot, martinez, shaw, mainoo, garnacho, fernandes, mount, hojlund are all good players. We clearly need 3 or 4 excellent additions but not the enormous overhaul some suggest
The tactics would probably work with the right players. So it's a recruitment problem that has to be seen across a very long period.
Or you revert back to the old tactics so that old and slow players can cope. But ETH was brought in to update the tactics because the old ways are a long term recipe for even greater failure.
So it's not that simple. We're not really seriously debating whether ETH should keep his job. Plainly he won't. The deeper problem is what should now be occupying our minds.
This ignores injuries and tiredness. The reason City can motor into the home straight every year is because they have a complete squad of high class players who can interchange. At the moment we don't even have a coherent first 11 but your four excellent additions would only bring us that far and not to the 22 we actually need to win anything.