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Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

Rood

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That is a very generous to EtH interpretation of things. You sound as if Greenwood were some ready-made world class player who was ready to drag the team on his own, not a young still developing player after 18 months of no football. Even if he were a world class player - pinning the “entire squad planning” on him would be unwise to put it mildly.

I do not believe for a moment that it was communicated to EtH that “Greenwood is coming back 100%”. It was probably “likely” or “we will do our best”. Even Murtough is not that stupid.

Even if it (stupidly) was communicated like that - EtH should not have been that naive to rely on him coming back to such a significant extent. Again, given his age and long absence a squad rotation player is an absolute maximum you could reasonably expect.

If he were suspended weeks/days before the end of the transfer window- different story and you can maybe use it as excuse is a manager. But this excuse could only be used by Ralf, not by EtH.

No serious organisation would accept “I just relied on X giving me assurances that something good is likely going to happen, therefore no check, no contingency plan” from an employee with a position of such authority on a performance review regarding a critical issue. He is paid 9m a year ffs.
Not sure how closely you followed the details of that saga but it's generally accepted that Ten Hag was told Greenwood was coming back.

Whether it was wise to rely on him after 18 months out is a valid question, but actually irrelevant to the point being made about failures at board level having a major impact on Ten Hag's squad planning. In particular upfront where we have been lacking numbers for the whole of Ten Hag's tenure.

The greatest failure with Greenwood was simply the constant delays from Arnold in announcing anything, this meant that it was just days before the transfer window closed that the club U-turned and finally announced he was leaving.

This left no time for any replacement and has had a major knock on effect. In fact it might be that FFP restrictions essentially meant that Ten Hag was given the option of Greenwood or nothing, before at the last minute being told nothing was the only option!
 

MadDogg

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Yes this is a central point. He was brought in to change the style. That was his whole purpose. Retreat from that and you have all the old problems back again.
Changing to a different style is pointless if it's not the right style. We still have all the same problems we had before, except now we've got extra ones on top of that.

We are further away from where we need to be now than where we were before. Our defence is sitting deeper, which is the opposite of what we want. Our midfield is much more open, which is the opposite of what we want. Our attack seems even more reliant on high-risk low-quality creation, which is the opposite of what we want. We are having even less control of the tempo of matches, which is the opposite of what we want.

All of these things are directly linked to the changes that ETH has made this season. We've gone backwards in every single one.

You do seem to constantly say that ETH is making changes that need to be made, and therefore he deserves more time. What are those changes? He's basically doing the exact opposite of what almost every top team does. Now there is the chance that he'll change his style again next season, but then that goes against your entire point of what he's doing this season being necessary.
 

hobbers

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He was brought to change the style but then he bait and switched us on what that style would be.

his interview with murtough and co was clearly based on how Ajax were playing. Then he quickly decided he couldn’t do that here despite signing half a dozen ex players of his.

The style he is currently failing to develop is a failing style in and of itself.

The new game model is not going to be based on having 1 superhuman midfielder on his own putting out all the fires, and all the front 5 pushed up man marking defenders and never being open for passes or making passing triangles
 

NLunited

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I have no problem with doing something different than Arsenal and Cheaty. Their styles would not fit traditionally here, and we should not all play the same (mostly boring) style.

Chelsea is a better comparison. They are improving after being wildly inconsistent. They have a better defense and midfield than we do.

Ten Hag‘s plan is good in theory. We need to be better in possession and have some key additions, then we should be fine.
 

VP89

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He was brought to change the style but then he bait and switched us on what that style would be.

his interview with murtough and co was clearly based on how Ajax were playing. Then he quickly decided he couldn’t do that here despite signing half a dozen ex players of his.

The style he is currently failing to develop is a failing style in and of itself.

The new game model is not going to be based on having 1 superhuman midfielder on his own putting out all the fires, and all the front 5 pushed up man marking defenders and never being open for passes or making passing triangles
Oh you were in the room were you?
 

glazed

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You do seem to constantly say that ETH is making changes that need to be made, and therefore he deserves more time. What are those changes? He's basically doing the exact opposite of what almost every top team does.
He needs to high press. That's what every top team does now and quite a few of the crap ones too. This only works if your defence can push up but still neutralise the counter, and your midfield is adept at keeping possession. Virtually your whole team needs to be fast, fit, athletic and good at passing. That's what he is trying for and he's falling way short. That's mainly a player problem. Shaw and Martinez in central defence is a completely different proposition to Maguire and Evans. And don't even get me started on Casemiro. Buying him was like buying a ticking bomb.

I don't know if ETH tactics would work with the right players. Maybe we'd still be shit. We've had no occasion to find out.
 

MadDogg

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He needs to high press. That's what every top team does now and quite a few of the crap ones too. This only works if your defence can push up but still neutralise the counter, and your midfield is adept at keeping possession. Virtually your whole team needs to be fast, fit, athletic and good at passing. That's what he is trying for and he's falling way short. That's mainly a player problem. Shaw and Martinez in central defence is a completely different proposition to Maguire and Evans. And don't even get me started on Casemiro. Buying him was like buying a ticking bomb.

I don't know if ETH tactics would work with the right players. Maybe we'd still be shit. We've had no occasion to find out.
So what benefit are we getting from implementing this half-arsed high press with an incredibly open midfield and deep defence (that is deeper than we used in previous seasons)? Are our players learning anything, or developing any patterns of play that will put them in good stead going forward?
 

hobbers

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Umm, yeah! We push six players forward.
And hide them all behind defenders so the only passing options are between Antony/Garnacho and Dalot/AWB.

We do not play a coherent attacking system at all.
 

hobbers

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xG from open play (goals scored)

Liverpool - 68 (61)
Villa - 56 (56)
Spurs - 63 (59)
Newcastle - 61 (57)
Chelsea - 60 (51)
United - 41 (38)
West Ham - 40 (42)


We are not an attacking team
 

glazed

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So what benefit are we getting from implementing this half-arsed high press with an incredibly open midfield and deep defence (that is deeper than we used in previous seasons)? Are our players learning anything, or developing any patterns of play that will put them in good stead going forward?
Good question. Cleary the defence isn't supposed to be this deep. But we saw what happened last week when Evans tried to push up. The younger faster striker just kicked the ball past him, ran into the space and scored.

So the choice is stay where we were and suffer death by Oleball, in which case we might as well ave kept DdG and Ronaldo. Or start to buy new players, knowing it's going to be really hard for a while.

But there are two problems. Buying new players on this scale is a very slow process and very difficult to get right. And we have indeed fekked it up. Mount, Antony, Casemiro, these are all bad buys. Secondly in trying to cope we have over stressed the system and now our key players are injured or demoralised.
 

mitchmouse

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I honestly think Ineos were thinking of sticking with him until Monday night...
 

RedRover

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Has he though? He would have asked for Kane and Rice and instead got Hojlund and Amrabat. He wanted FdJ and got Casemiro. He has poor medical and training facilities. He spend a year hobbled under the Glazers, and FFP means they will cast a long shadow unpicking the Woodward mess. He inherited a highly dysfunctional squad in ways too long to list. He's been tasked to transition to a modern high press style with even when everyone is fit a very thin squad of players capable of doing it. He got rid of Ronaldo and De Gea but he still has several players who can't do it and who are only playing because there's nobody else.

TBH it's a miracle we're doing as well as we are.
He had limits on who he could buy, as do 99% of the managers in world football. Every PL manager would want Kane and Rice. Do you need Kane and Rice to be finishing in the top 4? Certainly we should expect better than we've been getting with the resources invested.

Significant sums of money have been spent; presumably on players he wanted and they can't do what he wants. Or he's changed what he wants. Or he doesn't know what he wants. Whatever way you carve it up, he needs to take at least a significant part of the responsibility for that.

I personally keep getting back to the same point - what is he doing that suggests he's ever going to be good enough?

I was impressed last season and it looked like there was a plan, even if it might take a while to get us to where he wanted to be. Can't see that any more.
 

NinjaZombie

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The problem with the idea that we can carry out that open heart surgery and bring in 10 new players (which i highly doubt), is that I have zero faith he can properly identify the right kind of players. Okay, so INEOS has people in place to take charge of recruitment. Say they can do this open heart surgery, why would they stop at the players? Might as well get someone in who fits what they're looking for.
 

abailey123

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Here’s why I think he stays:
- we’ve paid a lot out in compensation already for our CEO, sporting director and technical director
- Can we really afford at least 2 more lots of compensation which potentially eats into transfer funds
- ten Hag is in the final year of his contract anyway next year
- he’ll have a lot to prove
- he’ll fight for a new deal or we see pretty quickly we need to replace
- we allow the sporting director and technical director to really settle into roles
- they then assess and work with ETH to see whether he is the man to lead us forward
- the alternatives are Graham Potter and Southgate!

No European football could be a really good thing for us to go into next season with a smaller squad, get rid of the deadwood we need to get rid of and next season is season zero.

After Coventry I was ETH out but with my ‘what would ineos do’ hat on, I think he sees out his contract at least
 

Nas-JR

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I’m convinced you don’t watch United. Either that, or you don’t understand the game.
I don't think you understand what the word boring means. Call us shite and it's understandable, but we play a brand of football that isn't boring, not in the conventional alladyce /dyche / moyes or, on the other end of the spectrum, van gaal way.
 
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soapythecat

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I don't think you understand what the word boring means. Call us shite and it's understandable, but we play a brand of football that isn't boring, not in the conventional alladyce /dyche / moye or, on the other med of the spectrum, van gaal sense.
You thought today was not boring then? You thought Palace was exciting did you?
 

Fallon d'Floor

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Onana - his mistake
Bayındır - irrelevant
Malacia - injured all season
Lisandro - injured all season
Evans - not who he wanted
Kambwala - young player
Casemiro - was world class for a year and suddenly declined out if the blue
Amrabat - not who he wanted
Mainoo - young player, doing well
Eriksen - declined
Mount - injured half of the season but arguably a mistake
Antony - his mistake
Garnacho - young player, doing well
Højlund - young player

so out of those 14, actually only 2 were, maybe 2.5 with Mount kinda, a mistake, the rest are either injured, not players he wanted, young players, or players who declined for no predictable reasons.

14-21% (whether you count Mount as a mistake) miss rate is actually low in recruitement. Others have done worse. And as for prices paid - that is mostly on idiots above him, not on Ten Hag

See how different numbers look when you put context next to them and try to not be biased?
Stopped reading your post from the bold text. Context. :lol:

The point was that after almost 2 years on from the end of the Ole/Rangnick season, a large amount of players have left the club and been replaced by mainly meh signings.
 

BorisManUtd

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There's always this idea of giving manager more time (Neville and Keane supporting it right now) but looking at previous managers we've had none of them proved us wrong. Moyes has again shown he's a very good manager but at West Ham, we knew that already but hasn't managed top side again. Van Gaal never managed a club again. Ole hasn't managed since getting sacked at United and that was 2,5 years ago. Mourinho failed at Spurs, had success at Roma but got sacked there as well. Most probably his next job will be at a similar level club.

Ten Hag could get a 3rd season but it's good possibility he'll just get sacked 6 months later like it happened before.
 

Infra-red

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I still like Ten Hag and would be open to keeping him giving the paucity of alternative options, but it will be a difficult case for the owners to make, given that this has been United's worst season of the Premier League era (most defeats, most goals conceded, lowest finish).
 

TrebleChamp99

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Amazing what a little speech can do, look at the table and think about the bizarre decisions and line ups we have had.
 

James35

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For me at least, it will be worse than the whole shit season itself if they say he is staying on as manager.
 

Ventura

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Everybody was so happy when ETH was hired, "finally we have a proper manager" and all that nonsense. We have sacked a lot of managers and nothing really changes. Like I've said before, the manager is probably 5% of the results tops, he can't make the massive difference that people expect, and the next guy won't be any different. A club needs a solid structure from bottom up and the right players, and just sacking the manager is pointless. Sacking Ole was pointless, and sacking ETH is pointless, unless it comes with a general rebuild of how the club is run.
 

tomaldinho1

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For me at least, it will be worse than the whole shit season itself if they say he is staying on as manager.
If we win the FA cup it won't be that bad comparative some of our bad seasons post SAF. League position really doesn't mean much once you drop out of the top 5 or so given the need for CL - Chelsea literally finished 10th and then won the league the year after with 93 points.
 

Scandi Red

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Ten Hag may have had extra bad luck when it comes to injuries, but if he doesn't get sacked after the FA cup (win or lose), then he's by far the luckiest post Fergie manager. None of his predecessors would have survived this.
 

Revan

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If we win the FA cup it won't be that bad comparative some of our bad seasons post SAF. League position really doesn't mean much once you drop out of the top 5 or so given the need for CL - Chelsea literally finished 10th and then won the league the year after with 93 points.
Remind me what happened with the manager(s) who finished 10th that season?
 

Infra-red

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Ten Hag may have had extra bad luck when it comes to injuries, but if he doesn't get sacked after the FA cup (win or lose), then he's by far the luckiest post Fergie manager. None of his predecessors would have survived this.
Indeed. They were all sacked following better seasons than the one Ten Hag has endured. I still think keeping him might end up being the preferrable option if Southgate, McKenna, Potter and Frank are the alternatives, though.
 

Revan

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Everybody was so happy when ETH was hired, "finally we have a proper manager" and all that nonsense. We have sacked a lot of managers and nothing really changes. Like I've said before, the manager is probably 5% of the results tops, he can't make the massive difference that people expect, and the next guy won't be any different. A club needs a solid structure from bottom up and the right players, and just sacking the manager is pointless. Sacking Ole was pointless, and sacking ETH is pointless, unless it comes with a general rebuild of how the club is run.
Schrodinger's manager. The manager is both the most important person at the club, and we must back him, at the same time he is just 5% of the results.

I call this, for the lack of a better word, total nonsense. As we saw when SAF left and we hired Moyes, with virtually the same team, we dropped from 1st to 7th. We will see the same when Pep leaves. We will see Liverpool going back to mediocre next season. We saw Real going from UCL winners to shit to UCL winners depending on the manager. We saw Inter going from triple winners to shit when they replaced Mourinho with Benitez.

And hopefully, one day we will see United becoming good again when we finally hire a good manager.
 

James35

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If we win the FA cup it won't be that bad comparative some of our bad seasons post SAF. League position really doesn't mean much once you drop out of the top 5 or so given the need for CL - Chelsea literally finished 10th and then won the league the year after with 93 points.
We won’t win the FA Cup, that I’m certain of.

I have wanted him out since September and it has only gotten worse since.
 

Revan

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We won’t win the FA Cup, that I’m certain of.

I have wanted him out since September and it has only gotten worse since.
Stranger things have happened.

Hope you are wrong. Winning the FA Cup (against all odds), and then sacking him within 24 hours as we did with LvG would be the best of both worlds.

Or well, within 3 days. If we win the FA Cup, he deserves a weekend of celebration.
 

cpresc

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I think we are only 2 signings away from having an incredible starting 11 (would need more squad depth though)

But look at this:


Bruno ---- Hojlund ---- Garnacho

---- Neves ---- ---- Mount ----
---- ---- ---- Mainoo ---- ---- ----

Shaw -- Martinez -- Silva -- Dalot



I know it looks weird with Bruno on the left here, but last night in his False 9 role looked amazing.

Basically a fluid front 3 where Hojlund uses his physicality while Garnacho and Bruno are floating around

Then a totally fluid midfield 3 where Mount can push up to cover and Neves/Mainoo can press on the front foot

Shaw is a decent centre back, while Dalot can invert

Martinez and Silva are both great on a ball...


This team would be a pressing and fluidity monster

Only 2 signings!
 

Scandi Red

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Indeed. They were all sacked following better seasons than the one Ten Hag has endured. I still think keeping him might end up being the preferrable option if Southgate, McKenna, Potter and Frank are the alternatives, though.
I'd rather have McKenna. Maybe even Potter.

But not Frank or Southgate. Better to stick with Ten Hag then.
 

Grande

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Schrodinger's manager. The manager is both the most important person at the club, and we must back him, at the same time he is just 5% of the results.

I call this, for the lack of a better word, total nonsense. As we saw when SAF left and we hired Moyes, with virtually the same team, we dropped from 1st to 7th. We will see the same when Pep leaves. We will see Liverpool going back to mediocre next season. We saw Real going from UCL winners to shit to UCL winners depending on the manager. We saw Inter going from triple winners to shit when they replaced Mourinho with Benitez.

And hopefully, one day we will see United becoming good again when we finally hire a good manager.
Nownow, you’re not really sincere here with the Schrödinger allusion. Or was Ferguson one manager from 1986-1990 when he had us at 11th and 13th, and then a completely different being from 1991 and onwards?

I think you understand very well that there are many, many factors influencing the performances and the league positions, and that the manager is just one of those factors, often the biggest factor, but not necessarily. Money is a bigger factor, normally, and Ferguson after PLC and TV economy was part of a better United than before PLC and TV economy, not a different manager. Pep with money is a completely different prospect than Pep without money, who might even be a lot worse package than Dyche without money?

Ferguson with a malfunctioning club structure wasn’t a dead cat that came alive, but a man who in cooperation with several other key figures worked together to change that club structure in a way that reaped actual first team performances only after five years of hard work.

Nowadays, only idiots like Ed Woodward expect an economist and a manager to be able to affect a club that broadly between themselves.

If we see Uniteds performance levels rise over night, we will not know wether it is a Solskjær bump or the evidence of a great manager coming in the door. Ten Hag a year ago looked like a brillant manager in most outsiders’eyes. Now he looks like a moron to many. It’s not two different excistances or entities, it’s the same manager trying to chip in with his 5% while trying to affect other factors in the club that will increase the positive influence over the next few or several years.

People like to be certain, because they don’t like to be uncertain. I am not certain what will happen if Ten Hag has another year at United, or even two. What I am certain of, is that there are a lot of people who feel like they know what’s going to happen, even if they actually don’t. The clue to The Schrödinger Mystery, is the box that prevents us from knowing.
 

Fallon d'Floor

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If we win the FA cup it won't be that bad comparative some of our bad seasons post SAF. League position really doesn't mean much once you drop out of the top 5 or so given the need for CL - Chelsea literally finished 10th and then won the league the year after with 93 points.
You're basically saying that there's not much difference between finishing 6th and 17th. Nah.

Chelsea sacked Mourinho 7 months after winning a league title. They replaced him with Conte after Hiddink finished the season as interim.

Sacking the manager is what lead to the next season's success. That's actually a good reason to sack ten Hag.

That's the type of ruthlessness required at United.
 

tomaldinho1

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You're basically saying that there's not much difference between finishing 6th and 17th. Nah.

Chelsea sacked Mourinho 7 months after winning a league title. They replaced him with Conte after Hiddink finished the season as interim.

Sacking the manager is what lead to the next season's success. That's actually a good reason to sack ten Hag.

That's the type of ruthlessness required at United.
That’s a more extreme range (we’ll finish either 7th or 8th) but my post wasn’t about sacking/keeping ETH?

Point is if we look back, regardless of the manager, and just assess the seasons post SAF, winning the FA cup is a whole lot better than winning F all.Obviously it’s highly unlikely we do win it, and it will be viewed as a shit season but there’s a sliver of hope.
 

Fallon d'Floor

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That’s a more extreme range (we’ll finish either 7th or 8th) but my post wasn’t about sacking/keeping ETH?

Point is if we look back, regardless of the manager, and just assess the seasons post SAF, winning the FA cup is a whole lot better than winning F all.Obviously it’s highly unlikely we do win it, and it will be viewed as a shit season but there’s a sliver of hope.
You're suggesting that we can have a good season next season. I agree that's possible. But more likely under a new manager. A fresh start.

I don't really care about The FA Cup. It'd be nice to win it. Something to show for the worst overall season in decades. But that wasn't my point.
 

tomaldinho1

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We won’t win the FA Cup, that I’m certain of.

I have wanted him out since September and it has only gotten worse since.
You are likely right re the cup.
Not sure if you want me to say 'well done' or something for the second line?
 

tomaldinho1

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You're suggesting that we can have a good season next season. I agree that's possible. But more likely under a new manager. A fresh start.

I don't really care about The FA Cup. It'd be nice to win it. Something to show for the worst overall season in decades. But that wasn't my point.
Yes, 100%, if you look at the league right now there are only 2 teams at an elite level. Add in the upward trajectory of a number of younger players + the messaging that Ineos a) know what they're doing in the transfer market and b) aren't going to get fleeced and there's no reason we can't get back into the CL places. My expectation is ETH sees out the season, we lose the final, they then announce someone they've already lined up for next season and we go into muppet overdrive again, full of hope once more.
 

Bowlcut11

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I'm still ETH in as there's too many mitigating circumstances this season to land it all on his head.

I would, however, like to see better coaching staff brought into the club to do the day to day patterns of play and hopefully this becomes more top down from Wilcox/Ashworth with the right types of players being targeted.

ETH seems to have his head screwed on properly enough to recognise a new collaborative approach is necessary and he worked under Overmars with great success at Ajax.

Have there been wild decisions made by him this year? Absolutely. I'm not excusing him but I fail to see a ready made replacement who would guarantee an uptick in form from those available currently.

Give him (another) big summer but with more targeted players to fit the bigger picture, big clear out of the shite and move into next season with a whole different basis for the club and future. Young players, capable of playing in a style visible and obvious across the squads.

I'm actually vaguely optimistic moving into next season already because it quite literally cannot be any worse than this one