SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

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Source: belgian newspapers. I would imagine this would be the same in a lot of other countries too, and puts the number of deaths in Belgium in comparison to Holland in perspective.
Increased mortality charts show most countries have likely “under-counted” by a significant margin.
The Nordics seem almost bang on, as do many countries with low numbers, but for countries with higher numbers it appears Belgium may have over counted, France also, Sweden almost bang on, and the rest are way under. (Spain, Italy, UK, Holland etc etc).

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

Portugal seem to have really fudged the numbers.
 
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11101

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It also looks like if you get it badly enough to be hospitalised then the vast majority suffer long term problems even when they have "recovered".

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-sydney-hospital-in-march-still-have-symptoms
To contrast with a little bit of positivity, in Italy there have been 14 otherwise healthy under 40 year olds dying from this. Only 4 in the last 3 months. For whatever reason, whether it's the weaker virus doctors are talking about, the likelihood of dying is dropping for most of us.
 

Pogue Mahone

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To contrast with a little bit of positivity, in Italy there have been 14 otherwise healthy under 40 year olds dying from this. Only 4 in the last 3 months. For whatever reason, whether it's the weaker virus doctors are talking about, the likelihood of dying is dropping for most of us.
Hasn’t the mortality for healthy under 40 year olds always been very low? What makes you think it’s dropping?
 

11101

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Hasn’t the mortality for healthy under 40 year olds always been very low? What makes you think it’s dropping?
From March to April - 10 deaths.
April to July - 4 deaths.

Not exactly scientific but it's better than hearing the doom and gloom about second waves all the time :cool:

Plus, doctors here keep saying the virus patients are turning up with now is not as strong as it used to be.
 

Pogue Mahone

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From March to April - 10 deaths.
April to July - 4 deaths.

Not exactly scientific but it's better than hearing the doom and gloom about second waves all the time :cool:

Plus, doctors here keep saying the virus patients are turning up with now is not as strong as it used to be.
Presumably case numbers much higher in March to April than April to July? Hence more deaths.

I’ve read those reports from Italian doctors talking about patients being less sick but had assumed it was down to less vulnerable people being affected. Would be delighted if there was any evidence that the virus really is getting weaker but am yet to see any. Apologies if this comes across as shitting on your positivity!
 

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Running crews started up a couple of months back in the nordics, there’s no evidence whatsoever from Covid-19 or other upper respiratory viruses that running outdoors represents any real risk.
Making out it’s any risk is utter garbage, has zero scientific basis and likely does more damage than good as people will distrust this kind of information. Scaremongering is a stupid way of getting people to take restrictions seriously.
Considering the risk it is the responsible thing to do. There is evidence that it could be a problem so ignoring the risk because there isn't definitive proof that it is harmful really isn't sensible when we can't have enough evidence yet to be sure yet.

The cavaliar attitue many people and countries have had to this pandemic is exactly why so many people have died unnecesarily.

Trying to characterise reasonable concerns as scaremongering is ludicrous.
 

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Increased mortality charts show most countries have likely “under-counted” by a significant margin.
The Nordics seem almost bang on, as do many countries with low numbers, but for countries with higher numbers it appears Belgium may have over counted, France also, Sweden almost bang on, and the rest are way under. (Spain, Italy, UK, Holland etc etc).

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

Portugal seem to have really fudged the numbers.
Belgium and France are both overestimating it because from what I have seen both countries follow the same logic, if you have been tested and died while having being infected you are initially considered as a Covid-19 death, if someone you have been in contact with has been diagnosed with Covid-19 you are "suspected" to have died from Covid-19 and the stats that you see include confirmed and suspected Covid-19 deaths. If possible the suspected deaths are tested and confirmed or substracted from the total.
 

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Considering the risk it is the responsible thing to do. There is evidence that it could be a problem so ignoring the risk because there isn't definitive proof that it is harmful really isn't sensible when we can't have enough evidence yet to be sure yet.

The cavaliar attitue many people and countries have had to this pandemic is exactly why so many people have died unnecesarily.

Trying to characterise reasonable concerns as scaremongering is ludicrous.
I really dislike this term, it has become a negative susbstitute for cautious.
 

11101

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Presumably case numbers much higher in March to April than April to July? Hence more deaths.

I’ve read those reports from Italian doctors talking about patients being less sick but had assumed it was down to less vulnerable people being affected. Would be delighted if there was any evidence that the virus really is getting weaker but am yet to see any. Apologies if this comes across as shitting on your positivity!
Most likely.

The doctors have been saying the viral loads people are showing up with are lower and the virus seems to be less aggressive. Even taking into account case load changes less people are ending up in serious condition.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Most likely.

The doctors have been saying the viral loads people are showing up with are lower and the virus seems to be less aggressive. Even taking into account case load changes less people are ending up in serious condition.
Something that is definitely happening is we’re getting better at treating the very unwell. Guidelines re stuff like intubation, anticoagulation and use of steroids have changed a lot since early days and we’re getting better outcomes. Mortality in ITU patients in Ireland is at about 20%. Which is a huge reduction from the 50% ITU mortality in the worst effected countries early on in the epidemic.

I’m not aware of any significant change in the risk of being admitted to hospital/ITU for those who get infected though. That would be a seriously positive development. As far as I know, the age adjusted risk of these outcomes hasn’t changed much at all.
 

hmchan

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im flying back home to HK tomorrow and apparently the wait times are 15 hours if you arrive in the morning.
That sucks after a 12h flight but has been totally working so far.
The growing list of exceptions caused this bad third wave.
I've always been skeptical towards Hong Kong's containment policy. In this globalized environment you just can't detach yourself from the world, and it's inevitable to have a list of exceptions (still too big though) to maintain the supply of essentials.
 

hmchan

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Most likely.

The doctors have been saying the viral loads people are showing up with are lower and the virus seems to be less aggressive. Even taking into account case load changes less people are ending up in serious condition.
Virus always tends to evolve to a less virulent strain, which means the symptoms will be milder and there will be fewer serious cases. But this doesn't mean we can relax because there will be more asymptomatic carriers and it is equally difficult to manage.
 

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It also looks like if you get it badly enough to be hospitalised then the vast majority suffer long term problems even when they have "recovered".

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-sydney-hospital-in-march-still-have-symptoms
On a lesser scale they'll also be those left with chronic post viral symptoms from Covid. It'll leave it's mark beyond the number of dead unfortunately. I'm not sure people championing letting it freely spread ever really understood all the consequences.
 

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Virus always tends to evolve to a less virulent strain, which means the symptoms will be milder and there will be fewer serious cases. But this doesn't mean we can relax because there will be more asymptomatic carriers and it is equally difficult to manage.
I don't think there's any actual evidence of it weakening yet? Those initial reports from some Italian doctors was heavily disputed.
 

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I don't think there's any actual evidence of it weakening yet? Those initial reports from some Italian doctors was heavily disputed.
A virus becoming more or less virulent doesn't happen quickly and viruses generally involve into less virulent version when they kill/damage their host too quickly which doesn't allow them to reproduce. Covid-19 isn't a quick killer and the vast majority of hosts show know symptoms, so I wouldn't be surprised if it barely evolves in terms of lethality, it's one of the rare efficient viruses.
 

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Something that is definitely happening is we’re getting better at treating the very unwell. Guidelines re stuff like intubation, anticoagulation and use of steroids have changed a lot since early days and we’re getting better outcomes. Mortality in ITU patients in Ireland is at about 20%. Which is a huge reduction from the 50% ITU mortality in the worst effected countries early on in the epidemic.

I’m not aware of any significant change in the risk of being admitted to hospital/ITU for those who get infected though. That would be a seriously positive development. As far as I know, the age adjusted risk of these outcomes hasn’t changed much at all.
I'm not sure of any large scale studies either regarding the supposed less deadly version of covid this time around

Leicester's hospitals have not been beyond capacity despite the massive surge in city centre and some surrounding areas and we had a spike coalesce around one or two weeks and were expecting the worst but didn't happen, primary care has been busy with calls understandably but hot hubs where we see covid patients in "red zones" have been less busy and many winding down, the number of people in Leicester even inner city for those called in for an examination (GPs have to do this with full PPE) has been relatively static.

My experience is that if there was a study that said this time around we've got a less virulent version it wouldn't surprise me.

I've worked around ambulance assessment in ED and triage and have had relatively fewer people to send to resus for stabilising pre-transfer, fewer straight to Glenfield (our hospital with the respiratory ward where most of the NIV is), sent fewer ITU bleeps compared to before

We used to categorise covid patients in terms of clinical pathology as three sometimes overlapping but usually distinct phases
1) early infection/viral response phase that was around 5 days with coryzal symptoms, often unilateral but occasionally bilateral consolidation on chest X-Ray, mildly deranged bloods (mainly lymphopenia, raised ALT and d-dimer)
2a and 2b) where you drifted more into the pulmonary phase where host inflammatory response was predominant - around 4-7 days - where you saw the classical imagining signs of bilateral ground glass change on CT scans and evolving peripheral consolidation (almost always bilateral) along with the usual blood derangement but more notably neutrophilia and a sporting CRP
3) hyperinflammatory phase (small percentage of total covid population base progress to) where pulmonary oedema and ARDS is seen, range 6-10 days on average depending on patient, apart from the obvious pyrexia, dyspnea, increased O2 requirements you also noted worsening consolidation and a couple of other markers are off (like reduced fibrinogen, reduced albumin along with marked lymphopenia)


What happened at the start of this thing was we noted despite what we did for a significant number (although still small as an absolute percentage) many progressed to hyperinflammatory phase or even presented that way. We're seeing a lot more discharges in the early 1 or 2a type phases then we did before (great for patients but also bed capacity). There's also, again anecdote, less multi-organ nastiness from speaking to a friend who's done FY2 ITU placement for 8 months, others things though like difficulty weaning people off the ventilations (plus things like secretions) are still are huge problem.

I think a few clinicians I've spoken to have a feeling that the phase 3 (i.e. the abnormal host immune response to the infection) while still was a low-ish percentage of patients before might be even lower now. And while it still carries significant ventilation needs + mortality risk the rapid progression for patients becoming really unwell really fast is still there but not how sure how much, possibly less compared to what we were noticing before.

I think the resp consultants and ITU consultants for sure have got a hold on this better in terms of a set protocol that is evidence-based to improve outcomes and that's a big factor. But I still wouldn't recommend this as something people take lightly. Considering the very real risk of a few young uns becoming really unwell and those with long tail covid who we are still seeing in significant numbers. Moreover, confirmation bias possibly for a lot of what I'm saying. It could just be that our spike in Leicester now is nothing compared to what we saw before (as data back then was poor)
 

hmchan

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I don't think there's any actual evidence of it weakening yet? Those initial reports from some Italian doctors was heavily disputed.
A virus becoming more or less virulent doesn't happen quickly and viruses generally involve into less virulent version when they kill/damage their host too quickly which doesn't allow them to reproduce. Covid-19 isn't a quick killer and the vast majority of hosts show know symptoms, so I wouldn't be surprised if it barely evolves in terms of lethality, it's one of the rare efficient viruses.
The dominant strain in the world now has already undergone a D614G mutation as compared to the original strain in Wuhan. It is known to transmit more effectively due to a change in the spike protein (1). It is also more susceptible to neutralization by antibodies (2), hence arguably less virulent. I understand these studies are preliminary and I expect more researches to follow, but it seems this virus follows the general pattern.

(1) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1
(2) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.22.20159905v1
 

Pogue Mahone

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I'm not sure of any large scale studies either regarding the supposed less deadly version of covid this time around

Leicester's hospitals have not been beyond capacity despite the massive surge in city centre and some surrounding areas and we had a spike coalesce around one or two weeks and were expecting the worst but didn't happen, primary care has been busy with calls understandably but hot hubs where we see covid patients in "red zones" have been less busy and many winding down, the number of people in Leicester even inner city for those called in for an examination (GPs have to do this with full PPE) has been relatively static.

My experience is that if there was a study that said this time around we've got a less virulent version it wouldn't surprise me.

I've worked around ambulance assessment in ED and triage and have had relatively fewer people to send to resus for stabilising pre-transfer, fewer straight to Glenfield (our hospital with the respiratory ward where most of the NIV is), sent fewer ITU bleeps compared to before

We used to categorise covid patients in terms of clinical pathology as three sometimes overlapping but usually distinct phases
1) early infection/viral response phase that was around 5 days with coryzal symptoms, often unilateral but occasionally bilateral consolidation on chest X-Ray, mildly deranged bloods (mainly lymphopenia, raised ALT and d-dimer)
2a and 2b) where you drifted more into the pulmonary phase where host inflammatory response was predominant - around 4-7 days - where you saw the classical imagining signs of bilateral ground glass change on CT scans and evolving peripheral consolidation (almost always bilateral) along with the usual blood derangement but more notably neutrophilia and a sporting CRP
3) hyperinflammatory phase (small percentage of total covid population base progress to) where pulmonary oedema and ARDS is seen, range 6-10 days on average depending on patient, apart from the obvious pyrexia, dyspnea, increased O2 requirements you also noted worsening consolidation and a couple of other markers are off (like reduced fibrinogen, reduced albumin along with marked lymphopenia)


What happened at the start of this thing was we noted despite what we did for a significant number (although still small as an absolute percentage) many progressed to hyperinflammatory phase or even presented that way. We're seeing a lot more discharges in the early 1 or 2a type phases then we did before (great for patients but also bed capacity). There's also, again anecdote, less multi-organ nastiness from speaking to a friend who's done FY2 ITU placement for 8 months, others things though like difficulty weaning people off the ventilations (plus things like secretions) are still are huge problem.

I think a few clinicians I've spoken to have a feeling that the phase 3 (i.e. the abnormal host immune response to the infection) while still was a low-ish percentage of patients before might be even lower now. And while it still carries significant ventilation needs + mortality risk the rapid progression for patients becoming really unwell really fast is still there but not how sure how much, possibly less compared to what we were noticing before.

I think the resp consultants and ITU consultants for sure have got a hold on this better in terms of a set protocol that is evidence-based to improve outcomes and that's a big factor. But I still wouldn't recommend this as something people take lightly. Considering the very real risk of a few young uns becoming really unwell and those with long tail covid who we are still seeing in significant numbers. Moreover, confirmation bias possibly for a lot of what I'm saying. It could just be that our spike in Leicester now is nothing compared to what we saw before (as data back then was poor)
That’s really interesting (and encouraging!) Thanks.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The dominant strain in the world now has already undergone a D614G mutation as compared to the original strain in Wuhan. It is known to transmit more effectively due to a change in the spike protein (1). It is also more susceptible to neutralization by antibodies (2), hence arguably less virulent. I understand these studies are preliminary and I expect more researches to follow, but it seems this virus follows the general pattern.

(1) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1
(2) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.22.20159905v1
So is that!
 

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I really dislike this term, it has become a negative susbstitute for cautious.
Agreed. Almost as if the precation principle is a bad idea? An approach that could have saved thousands of lives in many countries.
 

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The dominant strain in the world now has already undergone a D614G mutation as compared to the original strain in Wuhan. It is known to transmit more effectively due to a change in the spike protein (1). It is also more susceptible to neutralization by antibodies (2), hence arguably less virulent. I understand these studies are preliminary and I expect more researches to follow, but it seems this virus follows the general pattern.

(1) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1
(2) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.22.20159905v1
The G614 is supposed to be the one we got in Europe in March-April while the D614 is the one that was in Asia before March. So I wouldn't draw the conclusion that you drew, the only thing that seems to be determined is that the G614 is more infectious and is better for future vaccines than the D614 due to RBDs being more exposed.

It's also a small amount of mutations which could be explained by the fact that the virus feels that he is very efficient at the moment and doesn't need to evolve much. The interesting point will be when we get a vaccine, in theory the D614 should be more resistant and could evolve into something that is adapted to said vaccine while G614 will be in trouble.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The G614 is supposed to be the one we got in Europe in March-April while the D614 is the one that was in Asia before March. So I wouldn't draw the conclusion that you drew, the only thing that seems to be determined is that the G614 is more infectious and is better for future vaccines than the D614 due to RBDs being more exposed.

It's also a small amount of mutations which could be explained by the fact that the virus feels that he is very efficient at the moment and doesn't need to evolve much. The interesting point will be when we get a vaccine, in theory the D614 should be more resistant and could evolve into something that is adapted to said vaccine while G614 will be in trouble.
If it really is more vulnerable to neutralising antibodies that has implications beyond sensitivity to vaccines. In theory, that makes it more vulnerable to the primary immune response. So might reduce mortality.
 

JPRouve

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If it really is more vulnerable to neutralising antibodies that has implications beyond sensitivity to vaccines. In theory, that makes it more vulnerable to the primary immune response. So might reduce mortality.
In theory it should but is it the case in practice? But for me the important thing to remember is that the dominant version in Europe and America is the G614 that's the one that was mainly around when thousands of people died, that's where I'm a bit perplexed by some claims, I wouldn't be surprised if we are missing something and we should therefore not make specific claims about Covid-19 versions.

Now there is a speculation that could make sense these studies about G614 aren't new, they started in late April, maybe there is an other version that we haven't spotted?
 

Pogue Mahone

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In theory it should but is it the case in practice? But for me the important thing to remember is that the dominant version in Europe and America is the G614 that's the one that was mainly around when thousands of people died, that's where I'm a bit perplexed by some claims, I wouldn't be surprised if we are missing something and we should therefore not make specific claims about Covid-19 versions.

Now there is a speculation that could make sense these studies about G614 aren't new, they started in late April, maybe there is an other version that we haven't spotted?
Yeah, good point. If it’s gone even further down the same path as the G614 mutation that would be great.
 

11101

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I don't think there's any actual evidence of it weakening yet? Those initial reports from some Italian doctors was heavily disputed.
The reports were never published as some kind of factual statement, it was what was being said in news interviews and based on the state of patients they were seeing admitted. Still, they are all senior doctors at Italy's biggest Covid hospitals, so their opinion holds at least some weight. The how or why was never speculated upon.
 

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The G614 is supposed to be the one we got in Europe in March-April while the D614 is the one that was in Asia before March. So I wouldn't draw the conclusion that you drew, the only thing that seems to be determined is that the G614 is more infectious and is better for future vaccines than the D614 due to RBDs being more exposed.

It's also a small amount of mutations which could be explained by the fact that the virus feels that he is very efficient at the moment and doesn't need to evolve much. The interesting point will be when we get a vaccine, in theory the D614 should be more resistant and could evolve into something that is adapted to said vaccine while G614 will be in trouble.
As stated in my previous post, further investigation is needed and I wouldn't draw any conclusion for the meantime. It just seems to me the fatality rate and the rate of serious cases have both lowered (maybe I'm wrong) compared to the initial outbreak in Wuhan. Even so the reason may be multifactorial, it could be due to better patient managements, better treatments, or the mutant strain is actually less virulent.
 

hmchan

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In theory it should but is it the case in practice? But for me the important thing to remember is that the dominant version in Europe and America is the G614 that's the one that was mainly around when thousands of people died, that's where I'm a bit perplexed by some claims, I wouldn't be surprised if we are missing something and we should therefore not make specific claims about Covid-19 versions.

Now there is a speculation that could make sense these studies about G614 aren't new, they started in late April, maybe there is an other version that we haven't spotted?
Don't know for sure but some suggest the early outbreak in Europe and America was caused by D614. G614 only evolved afterwards and became the dominant strain.
 

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redshaw

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https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-heart/amp

"Two new studies from Germany paint a sobering picture of the toll that Covid-19 takes on the heart, raising the specter of long-term damage after people recover, even if their illness was not severe enough to require hospitalization.

One study examined the cardiac MRIs of 100 people who had recovered from Covid-19 and compared them to heart images from 100 people who were similar but not infected with the virus. Their average age was 49 and two-thirds of the patients had recovered at home. More than two months later, infected patients were more likely to have troubling cardiac signs than people in the control group: 78 patients showed structural changes to their hearts, 76 had evidence of a biomarker signaling cardiac injury typically found after a heart attack, and 60 had signs of inflammation.

These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts."
 

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i thought early on there were reports it can cause lung scarring aswell. You may recover ok now but years later you will feel the effects, like COPD etc
 

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https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-heart/amp

"Two new studies from Germany paint a sobering picture of the toll that Covid-19 takes on the heart, raising the specter of long-term damage after people recover, even if their illness was not severe enough to require hospitalization.

One study examined the cardiac MRIs of 100 people who had recovered from Covid-19 and compared them to heart images from 100 people who were similar but not infected with the virus. Their average age was 49 and two-thirds of the patients had recovered at home. More than two months later, infected patients were more likely to have troubling cardiac signs than people in the control group: 78 patients showed structural changes to their hearts, 76 had evidence of a biomarker signaling cardiac injury typically found after a heart attack, and 60 had signs of inflammation.

These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts."
Not a news that COVID-19 would take on the heart and pose long-term damage.
 

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Not a news that COVID-19 would take on the heart and pose long-term damage.
But certainly newsworthy that seemingly insignificant immediate symptoms are a poor indicator of long-term consequences, particularly in the context of this surge of young people getting infected because they're unconcerned about mild symptoms and relatively unaware of what's happening beneath the surface.
 

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https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-heart/amp

"Two new studies from Germany paint a sobering picture of the toll that Covid-19 takes on the heart, raising the specter of long-term damage after people recover, even if their illness was not severe enough to require hospitalization.

One study examined the cardiac MRIs of 100 people who had recovered from Covid-19 and compared them to heart images from 100 people who were similar but not infected with the virus. Their average age was 49 and two-thirds of the patients had recovered at home. More than two months later, infected patients were more likely to have troubling cardiac signs than people in the control group: 78 patients showed structural changes to their hearts, 76 had evidence of a biomarker signaling cardiac injury typically found after a heart attack, and 60 had signs of inflammation.

These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts."
Bloody hell. That’s scary.