Frenkie De Jong - Part 3?

Rozay

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padzilla said:
This is quite the straw man argument you've been peddling here. Nobody is calling for United to only sign Salford lads with United tattoos, as you put it.

Or, if you will, only sign players with an affinity to the club, it's clear you're being disingenuous on this.

We've been burned quite a few times over the past decade by signing players whose heart isn't in the project, so to speak, and are here to collect a pay cheque rather than embrace playing for United.

Di Maria being a prime example of a world-class player who clearly was only here for the money. De Jong has had ample opportunities to sign for us and it's clear he didn't want to, good luck to him, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, going back to him cap in hand now his alternative options are reduced isn't the great idea that many would have you believe. Especially given the costs involved and what else is needed across the pitch.
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But you are making up the point of his ‘alternative options being reduced’, and for someone peddling the accusation of ‘straw man arguments’, you have also, like many others, chosen to ignore the context of this ‘rejection’. And it was not several times either, it was two summers ago. And as a reminder, his club was trying to get rid of him to avoid paying him contractually owed back payments, and he wasn’t going for that. That’s literally it. The rest is some big monster created in the minds of many posters on here.

Firstly, there is the inexplicable assumption, seemingly just for the furtherance of their own narrative, that De Jong finds himself in a situation where, should he want to leave Barca - these unnamed clubs that he would prefer to join instead of United are now unavailable. That is totally made up. His options this summer are no different from what they were two summers ago, should we remain interested. He STILL has a contract at Barcelona that he could decide to stay and honour, so if he decides that this time, he will join United, then that is an active choice. He’s also an available world class midfielder, there’s nothing to suggest that other top clubs will not be interested in him this summer. He isn’t out of options at all. Just as you say it was ‘clear he didn’t want to’ based upon him not joining in 22, it would be just as clear that he now wants to if he joins in 24. And that could be for a variety of reasons. He may still not want to, and as a result, wouldn’t join us.

Viewing going for him as returning ‘cap in hand’ sounds like such a teenage emotional take on things. Why not the club simply ‘returning for a long term target’, as we, and many other clubs have done several times? If the timing wasn’t right two summers ago, but is right this summer, for all parties - then that is top level football. So contrary to your clarification from your first paragraph, the only issue I can see here is that De Jong was not a player who wanted to leave Barcelona no less at ANY cost in order to play for United in the past. Beyond that, all the stuff about Di Maria, only other alternative, coming solely for the wages we are offering is literally all made up and without basis. Now I’m not claiming to be in the know any more than I am insisting that you are not - so it isn’t impossible that those things turn out to be the case. And if it were, I also would not want United to sign him. But the club are far better positioned to gauge that during any talks so if that’s the case, I hope and imagine we wouldn’t pursue. However, there’s nothing to suggest any of these scenarios at all. There’s nothing to suggest that the player is nothing other than a top pro, and nothing, as of yet, to suggest he wouldn’t give his all here.

I bet if news broke tomorrow that Liverpool were interested nobody would think that he would go there and be anything other than committed.
 

Stadjer

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Rozay said:
But you are making up the point of his ‘alternative options being reduced’, and for someone peddling the accusation of ‘straw man arguments’, you have also, like many others, chosen to ignore the context of this ‘rejection’. And it was not several times either, it was two summers ago. And as a reminder, his club was trying to get rid of him to avoid paying him contractually owed back payments, and he wasn’t going for that. That’s literally it. The rest is some big monster created in the minds of many posters on here.
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Added to that was the timing. Manchester United wasnt in the CL, just came out of terrible season, had a new manager and before the season started nobody expected a top 4 finish. I dont think it is that strange that a player in that situation is a bit hesitant to join. Even less likely for that hesitant player to join if he still is owed a lot of money by his club and that club also being his dream club.

If Frenkie joins (i dont think he will), he will be a professional and try his best to win. If we go another Dutch example. Arjen Robben was forced out at other Spanish giant Real Madrid. He didnt want to leave Madrid but i dont think it worked out bad for Bayern and Robben after he did leave. Wayne Rooney turned down Manchester United but im glad that SAF didnt 'keep receipts' and refused to sign Rooney later.

Frenkie made the right decision too. He won his place back in the team and won La Liga.

The way some posters are responding to this rumor is like Frenkie turned them down for the prom and spit in their face when they asked.
 

Adisa

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Is Gerard Romero not the bloke that looks like a lunatic who has been in his basement too long?
 

Rossa

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Isn't he like super old now, like geriatric? And he's slow because Pellistri outpaced him. And he's weak because he was outmuscled by said Pellistri. Pellistri is too weak and slow for the PL. Ergo, Frenkie is much too slow and weak for the PL. Ergo, do not want.

It's just about maths, really. Simple.
 

Plant0x84

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Rossa said:
Isn't he like super old now, like geriatric? And he's slow because Pellistri outpaced him. And he's weak because he was outmuscled by said Pellistri. Pellistri is too weak and slow for the PL. Ergo, Frenkie is much too slow and weak for the PL. Ergo, do not want.

It's just about maths, really. Simple.
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We should sign this Ergo. He sounds worth a punt!

Also, Frenkie is 26.
 

Betson

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Berbaclass said:
Oh no!

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Fine ,that is what we want , quick closure on this so we can move on to attainable targets and not embarrassingly chase our tails endlessly like we did the last few times over this saga.
 

ThierryHenry14

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Other than weather and the city, I just don't understand what make him want to renew with Barcelona for a lower salary.
 

caid

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ThierryHenry14 said:
Other than weather and the city, I just don't understand what make him want to renew with Barcelona for a lower salary.
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There aren't that many better options. You'd assume Real are out and who'd willingly put themselves at the centre of that drama? Bayern aren't going to pay him 250k or whatever his basic wage at barca is. I'm not especially convinced by them at the moment personally. Paris is hardly a footballing upgrade. That leaves Manchester or at a stretch Liverpool or London (neither of which will pay the same wage). I wouldn't be that confident in Arsenal being a better bet than Barcelona going forward and Chelsea are a disaster.
Thats about 6 options in total, and it looks like much of a muchness between them and Barcelona footballing wise excluding the team with 115 charges. So why not weather and city as a deciding factor?
 

lex talionis

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The chase for De Jong may have been the cringiest in all of football history. The man made it clear he never wanted to leave Barcelona.
 

croadyman

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Waynne said:
Why is this thread still going? :lol:

Isn't he happy to be staying at Barca? We're like that creepy dude that can't move on from a girl who rejected him. Constantly still stalking the girl :lol:
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Yeah and why that Rob Blanchette and his sidekick did a video on it I really haven't a clue
 

daba

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ThierryHenry14 said:
Other than weather and the city, I just don't understand what make him want to renew with Barcelona for a lower salary.
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Yeah they seem pretty far away from Madrid right now and they’ve built full of wonderkids who are only just getting started. Apart from a Copa del Rey possibly, I don’t see him adding much silverware over the next 3 or so years if he stays at Barca.

If he’s cool with that, given he’ll still be getting nice weather in a nice city, fair enough. But probably not the kind of player / mentality we want to add to our squad in that case.
 

Gfooty

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Seems that Barça want 100mil EUR for him if he doesn't extend. Seems high but then again looking what Chelsea paid for those 2 midfield flops
 

Paul778

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Move on. Nothing to see here. New DoF would never sanction that. We need a different profile player now Mainoo has emerged anyway.
 

Hughes35

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If he were to leave I think he'd come here..... He's not going to leave though.

Even all these articles say "Leave on a free OR renew on lower wages". It will be the latter.
 

parmenio

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croadyman said:
Just admit defeat Erik,we have Kobbie now so need to find a younger DM to take over Casemiro
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Do you think he will have much input into new signings? Maybe under the old regime but surely if he’s kept on he will not be doing the sourcing? Looks like as usual this is cheap paper talk. Same with his sidekick at Juventus. Also would be very very expensive wage wise which again seems like the old regime not the new.
 

saivet

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Good player but he's the wrong profile of midfielder in my opinion. We should be looking at a Casemiro replacement as the priority midfield target. I think getting another player in like De Jong is fine but with the fee and wages that he would command, he's not worth it. I feel it would be repeating the same mistake two summers in a row by prioritising the wrong type of midfielder as our marquee midfield signing.
 

MadDogg

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caid said:
Bayern aren't going to pay him 250k or whatever his basic wage at barca is. I'm not especially convinced by them at the moment personally.
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Bayern pay higher wages than we do. They already have 9 players making more than that (we have 6).

In saying that, from what I can make out Frenkie will be on significantly more than that over the next two seasons. About £312k a week, plus (as long as he plays in at least 60% of the matches) he'll get a bit over £5m bonus at the end of each season. Of course that's due to him taking a huge cut from his wages in his first two years, playing for about £50k and £158k a week then. Still certainly not out of Bayern's wage structure.

However there are some sources which put Frenkie significantly higher again, up around £616k a week. I'm guessing that's including all the bonuses, but it's still significantly higher than the figures I found above (which works out to £412k a week). Not sure which ones are accurate. Obviously no other club will pay even close to that if the latter ones are right.
 
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Overhaul FC

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Barca can't and don't want to afford his contract for the next 2 years.

I'm sure he's paid around 600k a week.

Barca are fishing for someone to jump at the chance of taking him off their hands. Don't forget Barca agreed the fee with us only last year so that says it all, and his contract gets more expensive for them as it goes on.

Moral of the story we all want De Jongs agent to be our agents.... He done an amazing deal for Frankie to the point he bummed Barca properly.

The situation now is that Frenkies on such a good deal that no club besides a Saudi club could afford him. Or even want him for 600k a week. I'd think De Jongs actual value shouldn't be more than 300k per week in reality.

I suspect he will stay for the duration of his contract at Barca and in two years time leave on a free, so he can get the highest wage possible in Europe as a free agent. In two years time and available on a free he will probably be able to get 300-400k a week at a club IF he's in form.

I don't think United would be interested in this circus again even if Ten Hag is up for getting bent over to land him. The only way this would be close to possible would be if Barca are willing to let him go for next to nothing. Even then signing him could be an issue for us as we'd be asking other senior players like De Gea and Varane to take substantial pay cuts, only to give higher wages to a new signing.

We have to hope the new regime have more sense than this and are able to scout and recruit a better player for less money.
 

Counterfactual

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Overhaul FC said:
Barca can't and don't want to afford his contract for the next 2 years.

I'm sure he's paid around 600k a week.

Barca are fishing for someone to jump at the chance of taking him off their hands. Don't forget Barca agreed the fee with us only last year so that says it all, and his contract gets more expensive for them as it goes on.

Moral of the story we all want De Jongs agent to be our agents.... He done an amazing deal for Frankie to the point he bummed Barca properly.

The situation now is that Frenkies on such a good deal that no club besides a Saudi club could afford him. Or even want him for 600k a week. I'd think De Jongs actual value shouldn't be more than 300k per week in reality.

I suspect he will stay for the duration of his contract at Barca and in two years time leave on a free, so he can get the highest wage possible in Europe as a free agent. In two years time and available on a free he will probably be able to get 300-400k a week at a club IF he's in form.

I don't think United would be interested in this circus again even if Ten Hag is up for getting bent over to land him. The only way this would be close to possible would be if Barca are willing to let him go for next to nothing. Even then signing him could be an issue for us as we'd be asking other senior players like De Gea and Varane to take substantial pay cuts, only to give higher wages to a new signing.

We have to hope the new regime have more sense than this and are able to scout and recruit a better player for less money.
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Much too sensible (also accurate), but it's not good to suppress your inner muppet like that!
 

BrilliantOrange

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Here's a translation of a column by a Dutch Journalist who watched a lot a lot a lot of football and always talks sense about it (in my opinion).. The column was published yesterday. Im translation, so the English text will be an accurate translation, but some stylepoint may have gone lost in the process :wenger:.

Basically the below, especially the last two paragraphs, describe very well how I feel about De Jong.

""""
Some see him as a mailman who walks to much with the ball, others talk about that he should score more goals, and then others think he lacks leadership in big games. Frenkie de Jong as a football player is multi interpretable. It all depends on who you ask.

Few people after 5 years in the Primera can really argue the type of player he is and what his best position is. Almost everyone agrees he is an amazing talent. After the departure of Lionel Messi de Jong is the player at the Barcelona traning pitch which holds the most admiration. His teammates name him when they get a question about which player impressed them the most. Most of them start to smile whenever the topic of Frenkie arrives. It makes you wonder though.. Has he really lived up to his potential?

De Jong his biggest quality is his ability to improvise. He is a jazz musician on a football pitch who thrives with spontaneity and creativity. A dribbler, who on the spot creates new passlines and options to move the ball forward. A build up player, who constantly adjusts himself to the context of the game. This De Jong still exists, but it looks like he is held back. Like is isnt fully properly understood and because of that his full potential isnt unleashed.

Five years ago he was a young foal, of which managers of top clubs couldn't believe their eyes how good he was. In a team with players like Dusan Tadic, Matthijs de Ligt, Hakim Ziyech, Daley Blind and Donny vd Beek he had the pivotal role as the one who connected all the dots. He was the rails on which the Ajax train moved forward. The team of Erik Ten Hag was hard to press, because in the midst of them was this player who had a key to every lock. And if he occasionaly couldnt find the key, De Jong would fin another way to open the door.

In 2019 Barcelona signed of the most promising midfielders of his generation. De Jong was 22 years old when he left The Netherlands and will become 27 already this May. Time flew by and during his time at Barcelona he has been through some things which makes his stint at Barcelona difficult to either mark successful or unsuccessful. He had four different coaches with Valverde, Setien, Koeman and Xavi, who each had their own view on him and each in their way tried to fit him into the team. He played as second striker, as central defender, af most attacking midfielder and on the place of Busquets. He was there in the pre and post Messi era. It also cannot be underestimated what the impact it had to already have Busquets present as the compass before the defense.

De Jong was always the one who needed to conform and adjust himself when there were major changes at the club. Because of a process of natural selection he is now one of the most experienced players in the team. This season so far he looks more dominant in build and provides more forward passes than in the years before. You could say he matured as a footballer. But still something really doesn't sit well. In Catalonia, De Jong has become a derivative version of himself, of the limitless daredevil who forced Luke Modric to sink to his bottom in front of him and tried to outplay Benzema in his own 16yard box

He didnt turn out to be Iniesta, Xavi or Busquets. Maybe thats the difficulty. Everyone has his own view on the footballer De Jong about which of these players he resembles the most and that he is very hard to frame as a footballer. You see what you want to see. When Koeman told him he needs more efficiency upfront, he suddenly provided 7 goals and 8 assist in La Liga. Now that Oriol Romeu isnt good enough on the place of Busquets suddenly that responsibility drifts towards De Jong. He fulfills the role properly, but something is still missing. The spark of the footballer who was free. The point is that De Jong hasn't been able to be himself anymore since he left Ajax. He probably even himself forgot who or what he is. It's time he goes out there and tries to find a manager or a club where they understand him. It's not too late for that.
""""

https://www.vi.nl/pro/opinie/het-wordt-tijd-***-frenkie-de-jong-een-club-zoekt-die-hem-begrijpt
 

Overhaul FC

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Counterfactual said:
Much too sensible (also accurate), but it's not good to suppress your inner muppet like that!
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I was all in the first two times we were linked with this schmuck. 3rd time hopefully I can stay objective enough to not get drawn in!
 
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