Frenkie De Jong - Part 3?

padzilla

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The fact he's turned us down already would suggest he would only come here if he didn't get a better offer somewhere else.

Big-name players only coming here for a pay day with no real desire to play for the club are exactly what we should be saying no to.
 

Don_Johan14

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Getting absolute pelters from the Barca fans for that performance last night and for the entire season if we’re being honest.
I’d take this as a bullet dodged and move on
For a team that plays in a 4-3-3 positional attack, FDJ has no place either as a pivot or as an inside player.

Now a team that wants to play transitions, as Ten Haag said, he can perform at a high level because he has conditions.
 

Rozay

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The fact he's turned us down already would suggest he would only come here if he didn't get a better offer somewhere else.

Big-name players only coming here for a pay day with no real desire to play for the club are exactly what we should be saying no to.
I reckon you prefer that narrative, perhaps for nothing else than it being more interesting than the more likely. When he turned us down, was there much suggestion at all that he wanted to leave Barcelona, just not to go to United, or was it more a case of him wanting to stay at Barcelona, which was his dream club? That’s even before we get into the well documented contract situation.

And while I agree in principle with your second paragraph, it’s a sweeping statement made way too often and fans are likely not as informed as they would like to think of a player’s motivations. It‘s toxic and sets fans off on the wrong foot with players based on nothing but their/our own insecurities. I recall the same said when Cavani joined. Then it quickly changed to ‘I must admit, I thought he was just coming here for a pay day but I’ve been impressed with his application’. Perhaps there was no basis at all for the assumption in the first place. The same was said of Casemiro. This causes established players to continually start from a place of distrust with our fans, and then subsequent poor performances get diagnosed as disconnection and it’s unhealthy and of our own doing.

We’re not a club in Saudi, nor are we even Newcastle. I’ve been saying for years but for a club of our size, our fans would do well to drop this total disbelief that any player other than guys stepping up from Crystal Palace or our traditional Scandinavian players would genuinely want to play for United.

There’s no reason why, should De Jong decide that the time has come for him to leave Barcelona, that he would not see Manchester United as a viable option, rather than all the other supposedly ‘real big clubs’ (usually clubs who were born in 2014 or something) who for some reason are presumed to not offer huge salaries in their own rights and just have lifelong PSG, City or Chelsea fans who dream to represent them.
 

Shakesy

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I reckon you prefer that narrative, perhaps for nothing else than it being more interesting than the more likely. When he turned us down, was there much suggestion at all that he wanted to leave Barcelona, just not to go to United, or was it more a case of him wanting to stay at Barcelona, which was his dream club? That’s even before we get into the well documented contract situation.

And while I agree in principle with your second paragraph, it’s a sweeping statement made way too often and fans are likely not as informed as they would like to think of a player’s motivations. It‘s toxic and sets fans off on the wrong foot with players based on nothing but their/our own insecurities. I recall the same said when Cavani joined. Then it quickly changed to ‘I must admit, I thought he was just coming here for a pay day but I’ve been impressed with his application’. Perhaps there was no basis at all for the assumption in the first place. The same was said of Casemiro. This causes established players to continually start from a place of distrust with our fans, and then subsequent poor performances get diagnosed as disconnection and it’s unhealthy and of our own doing.

We’re not a club in Saudi, nor are we even Newcastle. I’ve been saying for years but for a club of our size, our fans would do well to drop this total disbelief that any player other than guys stepping up from Crystal Palace or our traditional Scandinavian players would genuinely want to play for United.

There’s no reason why, should De Jong decide that the time has come for him to leave Barcelona, that he would not see Manchester United as a viable option, rather than all the other supposedly ‘real big clubs’ (usually clubs who were born in 2014 or something) who for some reason are presumed to not offer huge salaries in their own rights and just have lifelong PSG, City or Chelsea fans who dream to represent them.
Well said
 

DWelbz19

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For a team that plays in a 4-3-3 positional attack, FDJ has no place either as a pivot or as an inside player.

Now a team that wants to play transitions, as Ten Haag said, he can perform at a high level because he has conditions.
It's a strange one because de Jong is the perfect player for playing the role Eriksen played last season beside Casemiro. In fact, I think that sort of role was pretty much what de Jong played at Ajax (though I think he was on the right side rather than the left).

But this season, ten Hag is playing this 4-3-3 with the one holder, and I agree he wouldn't really fit that. He'd have similar problems he has at Barcelona currently -- clearly one of the most talented players, but doesn't actually fit tactically.
 

DWelbz19

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I reckon you prefer that narrative, perhaps for nothing else than it being more interesting than the more likely. When he turned us down, was there much suggestion at all that he wanted to leave Barcelona, just not to go to United, or was it more a case of him wanting to stay at Barcelona, which was his dream club? That’s even before we get into the well documented contract situation.

And while I agree in principle with your second paragraph, it’s a sweeping statement made way too often and fans are likely not as informed as they would like to think of a player’s motivations. It‘s toxic and sets fans off on the wrong foot with players based on nothing but their/our own insecurities. I recall the same said when Cavani joined. Then it quickly changed to ‘I must admit, I thought he was just coming here for a pay day but I’ve been impressed with his application’. Perhaps there was no basis at all for the assumption in the first place. The same was said of Casemiro. This causes established players to continually start from a place of distrust with our fans, and then subsequent poor performances get diagnosed as disconnection and it’s unhealthy and of our own doing.

We’re not a club in Saudi, nor are we even Newcastle. I’ve been saying for years but for a club of our size, our fans would do well to drop this total disbelief that any player other than guys stepping up from Crystal Palace or our traditional Scandinavian players would genuinely want to play for United.

There’s no reason why, should De Jong decide that the time has come for him to leave Barcelona, that he would not see Manchester United as a viable option, rather than all the other supposedly ‘real big clubs’ (usually clubs who were born in 2014 or something) who for some reason are presumed to not offer huge salaries in their own rights and just have lifelong PSG, City or Chelsea fans who dream to represent them.
Good post.
 

DJ Jeff

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I couldn't name a more overpaid player in the entire world. Saudi guys earn more but that's Saudi. What has this guy ever done to be the highest paid player at a club like Barcelona, earning 450k a week? With that in mind, it'd be just like us to sign him.
 

The Red Thinker

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Too fecking expensive a player to be used as a backup to Kobbie.

You had your chance Frenkie. It’s time for the Mainoo era.
 

UpWithRivers

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You people are smoking crack. One if the best midfielders in the world and only 26 but everyone would rather get some 20 year old from god knows where for 15 mill.

Problems - He said no to us previously. So what. Ronaldo stayed an extra year before going to Real. They didn't cry about it. Big shock he stayed at Barca one of the top clubs in the world.

Obviously I don't think this is even a possibility and his wages need to come down. But if we can get him for 70/80 and 300/350 a week you would be nuts to turn him down.

I also think Mainoo can play further forward. FDJ and Mainoo can play in the same team. FDJ-Mainoo-Bruno/Mount
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Feck this guy, he had his chance. I only want us signing players that actually want to play for this club and not a bunch of mercenaries that have been made surplus to requirements and are only coming here because we’re the only club dumb enough to match or increase they’re current wage.
 

USREDEVIL

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I couldn't name a more overpaid player in the entire world. Saudi guys earn more but that's Saudi. What has this guy ever done to be the highest paid player at a club like Barcelona, earning 450k a week? With that in mind, it'd be just like us to sign him.
Wholly feck is he on that much? :lol: Barca doing a United. We should not be saving Barca from that madness.
 

mu4c_20le

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Feck this guy, he had his chance. I only want us signing players that actually want to play for this club and not a bunch of mercenaries that have been made surplus to requirements and are only coming here because we’re the only club dumb enough to match or increase they’re current wage.
How is he surplus to requirements when he's played every single minute when available this season. Xavi never even takes him off.
 

padzilla

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If he wanted to play for us by now he would be playing for us.

Buying him now that his form has completely collapsed would be foolish in the extreme.
 

BarstoolProphet

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I couldn't name a more overpaid player in the entire world. Saudi guys earn more but that's Saudi. What has this guy ever done to be the highest paid player at a club like Barcelona, earning 450k a week? With that in mind, it'd be just like us to sign him.
He is now collecting his deferred wages from when Barca nearly went tits up, don't think this is his "regular" salary.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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How is he surplus to requirements when he's played every single minute when available this season. Xavi never even takes him off.
I was speaking in general when I said surplus to requirements and not de Jong specifically. In his case it’s because he’s on a mega wage and Barcelona want it off the books due to their financial constraints. I certainly don’t want us spending a fortune on someone who has snubbed us already and is clearly only coming here because he’s been pushed out the door at Barca and we’re the only ones willing to pay his wages.
 

Rozay

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I was speaking in general when I said surplus to requirements and not de Jong specifically. In his case it’s because he’s on a mega wage and Barcelona want it off the books due to their financial constraints. I certainly don’t want us spending a fortune on someone who has snubbed us already and is clearly only coming here because he’s been pushed out the door at Barca and we’re the only ones willing to pay his wages.
Out of curiosity, what is a player who is forced out of their club supposed to do with the rest of their career? Like, generally speaking. If you are happy but you get to the point where your club want you to leave, is that it for you then? Is it that a player who would have preferred not to leave should be confined to going to play in Saudi or something, are they ‘damaged’ and without the right to pick another club and get on with their careers?

Fans love to pedal all of this fantastical version of football which is all romance and poetry, if many United fans had their way, only Salford lads with United tattoos would ever play for us. If De Jong has to leave Barcelona, then if he is professional, which there is zero suggestion that he is not, he assesses his options and picks his most preferred and gets on with his career. There is no guarantee that will be us, but if it is, then it is.

This whole notion of us needing to be every player’s first love and high school crush is not the real world at all.
 

pacifictheme

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Tbh if every player who played for us was born in Manchester and had a Manchester United tattoo I would love it.

Love it.

As for the rest of your post, I think people remember Di Maria. But he didn't want to leave real and certainly didn't want to come here. I didn't really get the impression de Jong didn't want to come here, but he certainly wanted to stay at Barca over coming here, which is fair enough.
 

Livewire1974

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I'd take Pogba back before this shithead. He had his chance to join us, he rejected, we now have Mainoo.

On yer bike Frenkie.
 

Rozay

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Tbh if every player who played for us was born in Manchester and had a Manchester United tattoo I would love it.

Love it.

As for the rest of your post, I think people remember Di Maria. But he didn't want to leave real and certainly didn't want to come here. I didn't really get the impression de Jong didn't want to come here, but he certainly wanted to stay at Barca over coming here, which is fair enough.
You probably wouldn’t, because we’d be a bit (more) shit - which is likely the sole reason why we don’t. That’s why we accept that not all of our players are local and boyhood fans, but we also have some in the dressing room and look to recruit players w

As for Di Maria, people still need to grow up and get real. The ask here is for a player to be professional and want to do his job. Common sense would tell anyone that there is every chance of that happening, even if there are occasions in football where it has not happened before. After all, PSG had no doubts about signing Di Maria. He didn’t want to leave Real, but if he did, he was happy to play for PSG, and served them well for years. I doubt PSG were his childhood club, nor did he actively want to leave Madrid to join them. He wanted to join them because he couldn’t play for Madrid. There is no reason why De Jong, or any player tbh, could not be the same. There aren’t even any rumours of him wanting to go to a different club if he left Barcelona, or that he hates the PL or anything. There is no metaphorical PSG in this equation where we’re all led to believe he would prefer to go. This is just usual caf/United insecurity to me.

Given that it’s fair to say that if he had to leave Barcelona, he would have to play his football somewhere (either that or simply choose to retire as the only football club he’s willing to play for is Barcelona) - what is wrong if he then chooses to play for us?

What about all the academy players we have ever let go or sold whose dream was to play for United? Should every team refuse them on the basis that they’d have preferred to stay with us? It’s a ridiculous notion. The game is a professional one, and nothing suggests De Jong isn’t a good pro.
 

Don_Johan14

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It's a strange one because de Jong is the perfect player for playing the role Eriksen played last season beside Casemiro. In fact, I think that sort of role was pretty much what de Jong played at Ajax (though I think he was on the right side rather than the left).

But this season, ten Hag is playing this 4-3-3 with the one holder, and I agree he wouldn't really fit that. He'd have similar problems he has at Barcelona currently -- clearly one of the most talented players, but doesn't actually fit tactically.
I think that the position to bring out the full potential of FDJ, because of his technical qualities, is double pivot, one defensive and he being able to organise the game with freedom. The question is, is it worth changing the structure of a team so that FDJ fits in, creating problems in other positions on the pitch?

I don't consider him as differential enough to do that.
 

Rozay

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It's a strange one because de Jong is the perfect player for playing the role Eriksen played last season beside Casemiro. In fact, I think that sort of role was pretty much what de Jong played at Ajax (though I think he was on the right side rather than the left).

But this season, ten Hag is playing this 4-3-3 with the one holder, and I agree he wouldn't really fit that. He'd have similar problems he has at Barcelona currently -- clearly one of the most talented players, but doesn't actually fit tactically.
I reckon he’d make the (minor) adjustment for De Jong. In fact, you could argue that anything he’s tried to build is an adjustment for the absence of De Jong.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Out of curiosity, what is a player who is forced out of their club supposed to do with the rest of their career? Like, generally speaking. If you are happy but you get to the point where your club want you to leave, is that it for you then? Is it that a player who would have preferred not to leave should be confined to going to play in Saudi or something, are they ‘damaged’ and without the right to pick another club and get on with their careers?

Fans love to pedal all of this fantastical version of football which is all romance and poetry, if many United fans had their way, only Salford lads with United tattoos would ever play for us. If De Jong has to leave Barcelona, then if he is professional, which there is zero suggestion that he is not, he assesses his options and picks his most preferred and gets on with his career. There is no guarantee that will be us, but if it is, then it is.

This whole notion of us needing to be every player’s first love and high school crush is not the real world at all.
The guy literally snubbed us a few windows back after spending all summer chasing after him. He had his chance, I personally don’t want us spending a fortune bringing him here when he’s only here because he’s been forced out the door and we’re willing to meet his wage demands. I’d much rather sign someone who really wants to play for the club and is focused on helping us get back to competing for the big trophies, doesn’t need to be a boyhood fan of the club just someone that doesn’t see us as second best and only here because we pay well. He’d also cost us an absolute bomb in wages when it looks like we’re trying to get the wage bill in check and reduce the numbers.
 

pacifictheme

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You probably wouldn’t, because we’d be a bit (more) shit - which is likely the sole reason why we don’t. That’s why we accept that not all of our players are local and boyhood fans, but we also have some in the dressing room and look to recruit players w

As for Di Maria, people still need to grow up and get real. The ask here is for a player to be professional and want to do his job. Common sense would tell anyone that there is every chance of that happening, even if there are occasions in football where it has not happened before. After all, PSG had no doubts about signing Di Maria. He didn’t want to leave Real, but if he did, he was happy to play for PSG, and served them well for years. I doubt PSG were his childhood club, nor did he actively want to leave Madrid to join them. He wanted to join them because he couldn’t play for Madrid. There is no reason why De Jong, or any player tbh, could not be the same. There aren’t even any rumours of him wanting to go to a different club if he left Barcelona, or that he hates the PL or anything. There is no metaphorical PSG in this equation where we’re all led to believe he would prefer to go. This is just usual caf/United insecurity to me.

Given that it’s fair to say that if he had to leave Barcelona, he would have to play his football somewhere (either that or simply choose to retire as the only football club he’s willing to play for is Barcelona) - what is wrong if he then chooses to play for us?

What about all the academy players we have ever let go or sold whose dream was to play for United? Should every team refuse them on the basis that they’d have preferred to stay with us? It’s a ridiculous notion. The game is a professional one, and nothing suggests De Jong isn’t a good pro.
I feel like you didn't read my post because I was agreeing that I think de Jong would be fine here, but because of what happened with Di Maria some people would be cautious.

Not sure it required such a tedious response.
 

Rozay

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The guy literally snubbed us a few windows back after spending all summer chasing after him. He had his chance, I personally don’t want us spending a fortune bringing him here when he’s only here because he’s been forced out the door and we’re willing to meet his wage demands. I’d much rather sign someone who really wants to play for the club and is focused on helping us get back to competing for the big trophies, doesn’t need to be a boyhood fan of the club just someone that doesn’t see us as second best and only here because we pay well. He’d also cost us an absolute bomb in wages when it looks like we’re trying to get the wage bill in check and reduce the numbers.
You’ve basically just repeated yourself. And continued to emphasise the seemingly convenient scenario that you have created where he would only join us ‘because we are the only club who meet his wage demands’ and ‘only here because we pay well’. There has been mo mention of hypothetical figures at this stage of speculation, and it again just sounds like United insecurities how you have manufactured this financial angle, and seem to be basing your view primarily upon it.

Why on earth would he not be focused on getting us back competing for big trophies if he joined? What is there to suggest that?

Even the ‘literal’ snub you highlighted, was not in favour of going to an alternative club. It was in order to stay at his present club. Viewing that as ‘second best’ sounds petulant to me, that would be more applicable if he actually left Barcelona but instead chose to join Chelsea. It also, I can only imagine intentionally, ignores the entire context of our pursuit of him in the first place. How often do we simply try and sign top players from Barcelona aged 25? We were lying in wait to capitalise on an opportunity presented by their financial situation, that was it. It was a financial situation which only benefited Barcelona and not De Jong. I think in the real professional world, nobody should be mad at a player because he didn’t get pushed out and forgo millions owed to him. No player should be expected to just love Manchester United so much for that.
 

Rozay

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I feel like you didn't read my post because I was agreeing that I think de Jong would be fine here, but because of what happened with Di Maria some people would be cautious.

Not sure it required such a tedious response.
I did read your post. I was then responding to those who would be cautious because of Di Maria. If you found it tedious then it is what it is.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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You’ve basically just repeated yourself. And continued to emphasise the seemingly convenient scenario that you have created where he would only join us ‘because we are the only club who meet his wage demands’ and ‘only here because we pay well’. There has been mo mention of hypothetical figures at this stage of speculation, and it again just sounds like United insecurities how you have manufactured this financial angle, and seem to be basing your view primarily upon it.

Why on earth would he not be focused on getting us back competing for big trophies if he joined? What is there to suggest that?

Even the ‘literal’ snub you highlighted, was not in favour of going to an alternative club. It was in order to stay at his present club. Viewing that as ‘second best’ sounds petulant to me, that would be more applicable if he actually left Barcelona but instead chose to join Chelsea. It also, I can only imagine intentionally, ignores the entire context of our pursuit of him in the first place. How often do we simply try and sign top players from Barcelona aged 25? We were lying in wait to capitalise on an opportunity presented by their financial situation, that was it. It was a financial situation which only benefited Barcelona and not De Jong. I think in the real professional world, nobody should be mad at a player because he didn’t get pushed out and forgo millions owed to him. No player should be expected to just love Manchester United so much for that.
I’ve repeated myself because that’s my thoughts on it. :lol:

As far as I’m concerned he had his chance to join us and he didn’t take it, end of. He’s a good player but I don’t rate him as highly as some and would much rather we look at other options. We’ve seen it countless times over the last 10 years of big names coming here because we pay the biggest wages, I’m not sure why you’re so surprised by that notion. Now, de Jong may well be different and be the ultimate professional but I don’t really care tbh, I’d rather look elsewhere and not help Barcelona out.
 

Don_Johan14

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Nobody does this, not even Liverpool. Real Madrid might be the closest and you have to squint to see a 433 in attack
I am referring to the starting tactical scheme. Barcelona in a medium-high block play a 2-3-5 with the inside players very far forward.
FDJ slows down the game too much for a positional attack. That's where you need speed of movement, to be well positioned to receive and pass quickly.

That's why I think FDJ is a fast transition player with his change of pace and great stride as his strong point.
 

Waynne

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Why is this thread still going? :lol:

Isn't he happy to be staying at Barca? We're like that creepy dude that can't move on from a girl who rejected him. Constantly still stalking the girl :lol:
 

appleman

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It's a strange one because de Jong is the perfect player for playing the role Eriksen played last season beside Casemiro. In fact, I think that sort of role was pretty much what de Jong played at Ajax (though I think he was on the right side rather than the left).

But this season, ten Hag is playing this 4-3-3 with the one holder, and I agree he wouldn't really fit that. He'd have similar problems he has at Barcelona currently -- clearly one of the most talented players, but doesn't actually fit tactically.
No, he was more on the left side of the – sort of – double pivot. Schöne was on his right generally covering the spaces left.

------------------

With Mainoo breaking through this transfer makes less sense than it would have two years ago. However, Casemiro's legs (and his general consistency) aren't always as reliable, and especially if he is to leave this summer, you'll want a midfielder next to Mainoo who can cover the fullbacks. Especially if they really want to get (someone like) Frimpong, you'll need a midfielder who can drop into CB areas (like Alvarez did at Ajax when the fullbacks were Mazraoui and a more offensively positioned Blind).

Frenkie is no anchor man, but he is a midfielder with experience as CB and who generally tends to/loves to drop deep into CB areas. In that sense he could play next to Mainoo, but I think you'd still want another DM – though less #1 choice level – who is more of an anchor type (or another way to cover defensive areas in case of (other) midfielders and fullbacks pressing forward) who can play next to either one of Mainoo or Frenkie. You don't want another season like this one where the whole setup falls apart after 2-4 injured starters.

If Casemiro stays, Frenkie would be a luxury buy and thought Utd could use a little more luxury/cover, I'm not sure if he's the financially wise top pick right now. If Barça is in another Frenkie-firesale mode that they'll deny in hindsight, this would be a great option, though. In the case – of course – that he is an actual option this time around.
 

padzilla

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Out of curiosity, what is a player who is forced out of their club supposed to do with the rest of their career? Like, generally speaking. If you are happy but you get to the point where your club want you to leave, is that it for you then? Is it that a player who would have preferred not to leave should be confined to going to play in Saudi or something, are they ‘damaged’ and without the right to pick another club and get on with their careers?

Fans love to pedal all of this fantastical version of football which is all romance and poetry, if many United fans had their way, only Salford lads with United tattoos would ever play for us. If De Jong has to leave Barcelona, then if he is professional, which there is zero suggestion that he is not, he assesses his options and picks his most preferred and gets on with his career. There is no guarantee that will be us, but if it is, then it is.

This whole notion of us needing to be every player’s first love and high school crush is not the real world at all.
This is quite the straw man argument you've been peddling here. Nobody is calling for United to only sign Salford lads with United tattoos, as you put it.

Or, if you will, only sign players with an affinity to the club, it's clear you're being disingenuous on this.

We've been burned quite a few times over the past decade by signing players whose heart isn't in the project, so to speak, and are here to collect a pay cheque rather than embrace playing for United.

Di Maria being a prime example of a world-class player who clearly was only here for the money. De Jong has had ample opportunities to sign for us and it's clear he didn't want to, good luck to him, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, going back to him cap in hand now his alternative options are reduced isn't the great idea that many would have you believe. Especially given the costs involved and what else is needed across the pitch.