And you believed him?
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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Arsenal was just an example that came to mind of a team who had a far, far worse (beyond comparison) crisis in their defense and fared much better. How good they coped obviously is not normally expected though, they were managed by one of the best ever. We also had some truly baffling teams outperform expectations under Fergie consistently.
Obviously you expect some decline in performance when you are missing your best defender (Martinez) and have to bring in a loanee to even have a left back but it should not be this dramatic. We still have had Varane and Dalot for most of season, Maguire and Lindelof for majority of it. I think our defensive frailties go well beyond injuries.
green and yellow surely :-)
Arsenal did not have a far worse crisis in defence that season. They may have had a difficult period in the champions league group stages but not for the whole season.
No, it's not tactical. His emergency defenders are all slow, and sink back naturally, despite needing to be further up the pitch.
Our positioning was no way near this bad with licha and Shaw. The likelihood here is that they are not following instructions because they are not capable to execute that style. Ten hag has also hinted his in the post match, that we are dropping our principles mid game.
Ten Hag's sides have generally never been so open in his career, so for you to assume that he suddenly doing it now by design and not be a symptom of bad injuries is massively flawed.
Injuries are not the reason we look so open against any opposition. Baffling that anyone still thinks so.
I laughed at this more than I should have
Then shouldn’t Ten Hag correct it and have the attacking players drop deeper when he’s seeing the same pattern game after game?
It's getting tiring at this point.
People constantly bring up how we looked last season, but fail to acknowledge we started heavily declining after the league cup success.
I dunno how many times I have said it at this point. I'm just fed up of watching us get battered, not necessarily in terms of the score-line but just watching the game. Teams bypass our midfield with ease and create tons of shots and chances. Even when players started coming back it was still the same.
It's not completely wrong, but it's a bit short sighted. Yes, if you have to play for example Maguire instead of Martinez your defense will drop deeper and your setup will look more broken, that part is true. But that only happens when the team keeps trying the same tactical setup. So it's more like EtH's refusal to really change to mitigate the effect of the injuries instead of the injuries themselves that make the team more open.
There's an argument for this, and I agree certain runs demanded it, for example our CL run needed more pragmatism, and so did certain games such as say the loss to Bournemouth. However there are certain other games where he was pragmatic & safe enough, and we still lost. Arsenal, and West Ham away for example.
I'm not saying he's got a free run, but I do think the criticism is massively overrated in light of the injuries he's had so far. Talk of the Devils podcast mentioned a record 20-something back four combinations obligated to be played out of 30 something games. That's pretty mental, and massively hinders any manager not just in defence but buildups and sustaining possession. I don't think hes actively wanting to play Evans so much, or Lindelof so much post surgery etc. But he has to, and he has to continue on impressing the right philosophy at the same time since this was what he was brought in for.
It's a catch 22 situation with him, and agree pragmatism in certain games works better. However that only works well if your attackers are ruthless - which Rashford is not, Martial is not and Garnacho/Hojlund too young to handle consistently. The balance is somewhere in between.
If Lampard, Southgate and Potter are INEOS best options, we're in for another 10 years of hurt.
Bring back the Glazers.
Bring back the Glazers.
If it's Southgate, as penance I'll go to the beauticians and ask for a brazilian waxjob. If it's Lampard...I don't know...nothing seems bad enough.
They don't call him Brexit Jim for nothing.
It's Thomas Frank btw. Not Super Frankie Lampard.
It's not Lampard. It's Thomas Frank.
And I highly doubt those reports are credible. No shot we hire any of them.
Personally I can understand where fans are coming from if they are upset with tactics and tactical set up of the current manager. But if they are constantly moaning about "style of play" and signings. I consider them "off their rocker"
You have to be crazy to expect a consistent style of play from a squad built without a specific one in mind! You can't go from a midfield for example of Casemiro Mainoo to Mctominay/Amrabat, Eriksen and expect consistency of style. The player profiles are not the same. For example a Spurs can cycle through Skipp, Hoijbjerg, Bentacur, Sarr and Bjssouma with minimal disruption because their profiles are similar.
You can't for from Hoijlund, to Martial to Rashford at center forward.
Even in defence. Varane and Martine are so different from Maguire and Lindeloff. Who in turn are different from Kambwala and Evans. Dalot and AWB are not similar. Neither are Shaw or Malacia.
All that is the fault of years of haphazard recruitment and selling. Not coaching
You have to be crazy to expect a consistent style of play from a squad built without a specific one in mind! You can't go from a midfield for example of Casemiro Mainoo to Mctominay/Amrabat, Eriksen and expect consistency of style. The player profiles are not the same. For example a Spurs can cycle through Skipp, Hoijbjerg, Bentacur, Sarr and Bjssouma with minimal disruption because their profiles are similar.
You can't for from Hoijlund, to Martial to Rashford at center forward.
Even in defence. Varane and Martine are so different from Maguire and Lindeloff. Who in turn are different from Kambwala and Evans. Dalot and AWB are not similar. Neither are Shaw or Malacia.
All that is the fault of years of haphazard recruitment and selling. Not coaching
I dunno, seemed to work for me in PES 2018. Put gegenpress on but Defense was set to deep defensive line (or all out defense? I forgot) and very compact.
The period I was referring to was Champions League knockout games against Real Madrid, Juventus and Villarreal in which they did not concede a single goal and their defense at the time was Eboue (who played 1 game prior to that season), Toure (first choice), Senderos (young, inexperienced and not a good player) and Flamini (not even a left back, played mostly as an utility midfielder prior to that season). It's actually a perfect example of a team having to get by with a makeshift defense and change their shape to not expose their weaknesses. It's actually ridiculous to think that that defense had any right to be as good as they were. Obviously helped by the fact they had Gilberto and Vieira in front of them.
We have had it tough with Martinez and Shaw out for most of the season, and having to play Evans at times, but even then we've still largely been able to field senior, experienced players in most games and not have to rely on 3 youngsters, one of whom was not even playing in his correct position.
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Not actually sure they don't care. Think it is more the tactics make it hard for them to perform or they haven't a clue what he is expecting them to do.
Luckily it's Ogden, I can pretty disregard this as trash.And you believed him?
I would strongly prefer us getting Mourinho back than having Southgate manage us. And I hate having Mourinho as our manager.
This is flat out wrong. United’s injuries this season have truly reached mythical status round here.
As I said, arsenal did not have the extended run that we had missing first choice players, backups and their back ups.
Maguire, Lindelof and Evans are nor capable of churning out play in line with a progressive system on a consistent basis. Arsenal didn't have to play equivalent square pegs in left back akin to Lindelof and Amrabat.
Feel free to share the data.
Terrible names to be linked toAnd you believed him?
Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof and Reguilon (whom we had for half a season) are all experienced internationals who have hundreds of PL games between them. It's definitely preferable to have them available for most of the time than have to play three youngsters with virtually no experience.
If they are not capable of playing this setup, then the setup is quite obviously wrong for the players we have. It's manager's job to ensure that this does not happen.
I don't know what you consider as extended run but going through 3 knockout rounds with this setup does seem like an 'extended run' to me. It's basically 3-4 months of football during crucial stages of European competition. They faced Juventus, Real Madrid and Villarreal with that setup and conceded no goals.
As for the bolded, Flamini was exactly that. He was a midfielder (not perceived as a very good one at the time) who slotted in at left back.
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Yeah I don't see how it can get worse than playing Eboue, Senderos and Flamini, all of them below 21, against Real Madrid and Juventus.
We've mostly had two of Maguire, Varane and Lindelof to choose from for CB, have had Dalot at right back available most season and had Reguilon available at left back for most of the first few months, with Wan-Bissaka coming and going. We've mostly been able to field a senior defense with players playing in their preferred positions, bar some exceptions like playing Kambwala at West Ham, or putting Lindelof at left back in recent games.
Don't get me wrong, Martinez and Shaw are big misses, especially if you are trying to play with the ball more, but it's not like we've had to pull random players from youth teams all season. It's just pretty apparent we don't have tactical flexibility to change our ways when the personnel does not allow us to play a certain way. It's a very concerning thing.
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We've apparently played 21 different back fours in 27 games with six different left backs.
Even against City, we had to start Evans in the centre and Lindelof on the left. We had to replace Evans with a 19-year-old making his third senior appearance, shift Dalot to the left and bring Lindelof central.
Our options off the bench in attack (other than Antony) were Omari Forson and Amad Diallo, who have fewer than 10 league appearances between them, and two of the unused substitutes were from the academy and had zero appearances between them.
Jonny Evans, who was brought in as an emergency back-up, fifth choice centre-back, has the 11th highest number of league appearances for us. Scott McTominay the 6th highest.
Evans has played in twice as many games as Martinez. McTominay in three times as many as Mount.
Reguilon (whose loan has ended) and Pellistri (who is now out on loan) have made more league appearances than both Martinez and Mount.
That's before we get to Casemiro making fewer appearances than Eriksen, Shaw featuring less than Martial and Amrabat, etc.
The squad has been decimated by injuries this season.
I think part of that was not forced though but rather meddling with the squad too much even when we had players healthy. We've gone through a period when we refused to play Varane at all, we had games where we had Reguilon available but still did not play him despite him being our only natural left back. Dalot and Varane have been largely available, Maguire and Lindelof have mostly had short term injuries.
There was a period where Reguilon was out for 5 weeks or so. Lindelof underwent surgery this season and is not 100%, Maguire has had 2 spells out from the first team with injury. Varane has been more available of late, but that's only because we exited all of our cups and have 1 week between games.
Being experienced doesn't mean you're readily fit and available. My point about lack of experience is in the front line. The back line have been riddled with injuries all season, rotating across the squad players whilst having long term impacts on 50% of the squad. Being obligated to play so many combinations of a back 4 is a massive problem regardless of the experience level.
That is quite clearly untrue. The only 'meddling' you can make a case for is Amrabat vs Lindelof at LB. And even that is a worse of two evils relative to the opponent's XI.
He dropped Varane for a small period, because Varane couldn't be readily available each game and he needed continuity at the CB ironically. Then, ironically, Maguire went and got injured. Even in that spell Varane didn't miss that many PL games. All other instances are Maguire being injured, Evans being injured, Shaw getting injured after short cameos back, Licha getting injured again, Wan Bissaka getting injured again, Lindelof needing surgery and Reguilon leaving the club.
Astounding how you can put it down to "meddling".
What are you talking about?
We’ve still had to pull from players who either aren’t good enough or are playing out of position, that’s not to mention we haven’t had a set back four all season, seven months, that’s not included to the team infront of them that had missing players throughout the season.
Off the top of my head we have had at least 5 different left backs this season at varying points (Shaw/Regullion/Dalot/Lindelof/Amrabat) alone, which is absurd.
That’s not even mentioning the amount of back four pairings we have had this season as well.
The issue for me, is we still play the same way we did under Ole, which is criminal, even if Pep/Klopp had these injuries, someone would slot in and they would continue the way they play.
We've been plagued with injury all season not only to 3/4s of our defence, but also their back ups (and in some cases the back-up's backup). We have had prolonged periods (weeks/months) playing 4th and 5th choice players, out of position too. This is before we consider injuries in the striker position and the midfield position.
I want to know how Arsenal's injury crisis was worse and what the duration was for, in that season.
Like so many have said, what is worrying about Eric ten haag is the lack of any discernable style of play. You can blame it on injuries all you want but the fact of the matter is that any top coach will have a discernable style of play no matter how many injuries or how terrible their squad.
We saw it with klopp when he first went to Liverpool. Regardless of the opinion one might have of Graham Potter he went to a Brighton side that was playing terrible football and introduced a very good and discernable style of play with almost entirely the same squad.
Their are so many teams in Europe and maybe even in England that play better football than Man united despite having inferior squads. Inter Milan play wonderful football and yet the only really top players they have, in my opinion, are Barella and Lautaro Martinez. No top team in europe would go any where their other players. And yet Inzaghi had them going toe to toe with Man city in a champions league final.
Eric ten haag has absolutely no excuse for the lack of any visible style of play, not to mention an attractive one. And if the top coaches are able to transcend any injuries and squad handicaps to fashion an identity on the pitch, how can we include him in this bracket of Coaches.
And if we can't include him in the said tier of managers, is he good enough for the direction in which SJR and the fans want Man United to go?
We saw it with klopp when he first went to Liverpool. Regardless of the opinion one might have of Graham Potter he went to a Brighton side that was playing terrible football and introduced a very good and discernable style of play with almost entirely the same squad.
Their are so many teams in Europe and maybe even in England that play better football than Man united despite having inferior squads. Inter Milan play wonderful football and yet the only really top players they have, in my opinion, are Barella and Lautaro Martinez. No top team in europe would go any where their other players. And yet Inzaghi had them going toe to toe with Man city in a champions league final.
Eric ten haag has absolutely no excuse for the lack of any visible style of play, not to mention an attractive one. And if the top coaches are able to transcend any injuries and squad handicaps to fashion an identity on the pitch, how can we include him in this bracket of Coaches.
And if we can't include him in the said tier of managers, is he good enough for the direction in which SJR and the fans want Man United to go?
We don't play like we did under Ole. We play a lot more open than that. People here want us to play like we did under Ole because that keeps us more secure at the back.
You’ve been given all that info, you just don’t like the answer.
We played Flamini, Toure, Senderos and Clichy in the knockout rounds of the CL all the way up to the final. The also played in the PL that entire time. That’s nearly half of the season without an entirely threadbare back line.
Also, even this season Arsenal have had injuries to backups if backups. Kiwior has played all of our games in 2024. He’s fourth choice LB. You just haven’t noticed because he’s playing well.
United have had a lot of injuries this season, but it’s nothing unprecedented.
Again, can you share the data. Peering over to Wiki it appears you also called upon Sol Cambell for 20 PL apps, Lauren for 22 apps. This is a long time ago but even if we consider you had similar defensive struggles it's not exactly much of a point considering you finished with about the same level of points we'd be on track for.
So you’ve confirmed that we had a threadbare back line for nearly half a season?
And you don’t think it’s much of a point that that back four got Arsenal to the CL Final, shutting out Real Madrid and Juventus and setting a record for the fewest knockout round goals conceded that still stands today?
You don’t even see the tiniest bit of difference between the two scenarios?
I don't know if you've followed my posts nearly as well enough. I have already stated our CL performances were not good enough, I don't know why the CL is being crowbarred into what I'm referring to which is domestic season form.
I want to know whether you've had back ups and back ups to the back ups missing most season, not just missing 3/4s of your defence. If we missed 3/4s of our defence but at least have continuity with those stepping in I wouldn't really argue.
It looks like you were able to call upon a couple other defenders to play the majority of the games in the Premier League.
Most of these injuries should have been anticipated, already existed or where suffered during the ridiculous pre-season
Shaw and Varane have consistently missed long periods each season, this should have been anticipated ongoing
Shaw injured 23/08/2023 long term known
Varane injured 26/08/2023
Malacia was injured 18/07/2023 and it was know to be a long term injury
Maguire was completely on the outs by all account the club/ETH was doing all they could to move him on
Martinez only returned 30/06/2023 after a 3 month lay off, needed to be eased back into match fitness
So going into the season we start with Martinez, Vanane, Maguire (unfancied), Lindelof, Johnny Evans (aged 35), AWB and Dalot, knowing Malacia likely to be out all season, Reguilon, and Shaw out for 3-4 months
Not saying that there hasn't been bad luck but there is also a massive slice of poor planning, bearing in mind we spunked money on Mount who has a speculative injury record to play in effectively the same position as Bruno who is bulletproof fitness wise! spent a lot on money on Onana (might still be a good buy) when we had decent keepers on out books and were able to pick up Bayindir for cheap
Yes we had limited funds, so using them poorly and not addressing points of failure is yet another criticism to level, not an excuse
Moving on to midfield we have:
Casemiro - never going to play every game
Mainoo injured 27/07/2023 for months
McTominay - average midfielder now employed it seems as a 10
Fred - sold
Hanibal - kid
Bruno
Mount - could be good but offers the same as Bruno
Amrabat - Signed because of ETH previously manged, was nowhere near PL fitness levels and even now is slower than treacle
It seems like you are willing to exonerate ETH of any responsibility for any of the way we have performed this season, and yeah some of the blame has to be spread to the scouts etc... ETH is not managing in a vacuum, but he is very much substantially part and parcel of the problem, the problems we have had in midfield and defence could and should have been anticipated to a greater degree but they have not been planned for at all it would seem.
And even when you accept the injuries leaving us with a starting 11 which does not contain speedy, technically gifted defenders and dynamic box to box midfielders, you then have to ask the big question... Why are we persisting to play as if we do?