Good look into why we're so open. Spoiler: Ten Hag wants to play this way.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I can understand the sports journ's speculating about ETH's future, but the names they are coming up with to replace him just beggars belief.
Surely these are wind ups?
If I hear David Moyes named mentioned then....
You say most of these injuries should be anticipated, whilst throwing Shaw's injury in there toward the end of the window after the season had started (?!)
Need I remind you our manager tried to flog Maguire and wanted a CB, which wasn't executed successfully by the director of football?
Malacia had a setback to a knee injury which is difficult to gauge. Set backs and re-occurrence of injuries are not anticipated. Wan Bissaka has essentially been a non entity too from injuries sustained early in the season. Lindelof needed surgery again from injuries after the window closed. Maguire has missed 6-8 weeks cumulatively so far. Literally none of those are injuries that should be anticipated.
Moving onto the midfield - Ten hag also wanted to sell McTominay and reinvest. Again, the DoF was unable to get it done. Armabat was a loan dumspter dive and likely not a shortlisted name if we had actual funds to invest. Moreover you should ask yourself why the DoF keeps asking the manager on who they want rather than trusting the scouting network for better alternatives.
I think the only bit would agree with is Ten Hag shouldn't have sold Fred. Otherwise this idea that Ten Hag should anticipate a ton of injuries is bollocks. No one anticipated this level of defensive injury.
Wait, do you think we put that back line out in CL only? That we had a clean bill of health and loads of players to pick from and decided that Senderos and Flamini should take on the European giants?
We had an injury crisis that meant we had to play 3 inexperienced players and utility midfielder in defence for months. They also played domestically because… we didn’t have anyone else.
There’s no point asking for “data” if you’re just going to ignore it.
i feel like we’re going round in circles here. I don’t think United’s injuries are the main reason there is a gaping chasm in their midfield virtually every game that allows the opposition to pepper their goal at will. It seems like you do, so we can agree to disagree.
The Southgate link seems particularly far fetched. Even ignoring the obvious reasons around why he'd be a poor choice, United would have to wait until England are out of the Euros to officially appoint him.I can understand the sports journ's speculating about ETH's future, but the names they are coming up with to replace him just beggars belief.
Surely these are wind ups?
If I hear David Moyes named mentioned then....
It would be a terrible way to kick off under the new INEOS exec team.
So much inconsistency with what you say. United's injuries are a "myth" but Arsenal's is threadbare, even if we assume they had the same level of defensive crisis (?!)
I'll ask again - do you have evidence to support you had back ups to the back ups and then those back ups injured? We are playing a 38 year old at CB and a CB at Left Back. As previously shown you were also able to call upon Cambell and Lauren for 20+ PL apps in that season, which is why I'm asking for the data.
And as I said, even if we do accept that the injuries are similar domestically, we'd be on course for roughly the same points as you did. So the point being made by the opposition is lost all the same.
Yeah OK Eric you keep on believing
The issue with pointing to defensive injuries this season is that a comparison to last season raises some eyebrows.
Last season conceded 1.13 goals per game this season it's 1.44. xGA per game last season was 1.33 and this season it's 1.5. According to this link, last season United were conceding 12.7 shots per game and were ranked 9th in 'shots conceded'; this season they are conceding 16.0 shots per game and are ranked 17th. Last season United had a low +15 GD this season they have a low 0 GD.
There are differences but they also point to last season's numbers not being great.
Last season conceded 1.13 goals per game this season it's 1.44. xGA per game last season was 1.33 and this season it's 1.5. According to this link, last season United were conceding 12.7 shots per game and were ranked 9th in 'shots conceded'; this season they are conceding 16.0 shots per game and are ranked 17th. Last season United had a low +15 GD this season they have a low 0 GD.
There are differences but they also point to last season's numbers not being great.
Yes, indeed it would be, wrong manager at wrong time!
However reading the reports on INEOS from various outlets, not just sport, it sounds like once the top team is assembled they are looking to slim down the non-playing staff as well as the players. Rumours of up to 300 jobs at OT may go in the next year. If that sort of 'stripping down' is on the cards, then we are in for a long haul, sounds like Sir Jim is intent on not just stripping the bed clothes, he's changing the bed as well.
Fans are going to have to hang on in there, it's likely to be a long ride, as well as a bumpy one!
i just seen these links to Southgate in the media. It may be just the usual mainstream media BS but just in case INEOS think this is a good idea and are keeping an eye on forums , in my limited opinon...........NOOOOOOOO
This is exactly the type of bullshit post we are getting tired of.
Fine to debate either side but making snide and shitty remarks just because you don't have an answer is tiresome.
I've asked how he should have anticipated Luke Shaws injury from the transfer window when he was injured late August after the season started, or Lindelof's surgery, or Wan Bissaka's long injury, or Maguire missing many weeks and you come out with that. Christ.
It's not about the superficial defensive record.
It's about the inability to look like a remotely cohesive unit. Our defence and midfield have been hit by injuries all season, the defense perhaps moreso.
The only area we've been able to field a remotely consistent line-up of players is in attack, and that's been affected by Antony being utterly shite and Rashford being massively off the boil, leaving two youngsters to carry us through.
I think the bolded part is the main issue for a lot of people, myself included. It's been a tough season due to injuries and off field issues, but he's absolute not been making the best of a bad (tough) season.
In my opinion his lack of adaptability and sensibility has led to many of us being embarassed about the football we play, even if we win. And that's true of bang average opponents, never mind the good ones.
I think his other point was more pertinent to be honest. Whether the club could have prepared better to manage the injuries or not, why is the manager and his coaching staff choosing to play a system that many would argue we didn't have the players for to begin with, never mind with powers of injuries?
I certainly don't have an answer and am further from one with every horrible performance I watch.
His point is that the manager should have prepared, not the club. When I pointed out that he wanted to get a new CB and a new CM, he decided to give a childish answer in return.
Part of me fears that Jim wants an English manager, in which case we'd have to consider Southgate and Potter. I reckon the Euros will be the former's last tournament (win or lose), and I reckon Jim will sound him out in advance if he really wants him. Am hoping Potter isn't on the radar because IMO he needs to prove himself at a big club first.
FTR I can see Jim going for a foreign manager, possibly Tuchel or Nagelsman.
If you actually read my response to your original post, he could have anticipated injuries to Shaw and Varane as they consistently miss a matches each season due to in jury/fitness
Did not say he could anticipate Lindelof or AWB, or even Maguire.... however Lindelof and Maguire clearly not capable of playing the system ETH is trying to implement, he started the season with several long term injuries which could have been covered off.... and yes ETH is part of that process not a victim of it, he wanted Mount, he wanted Amrabat, he wanted Onana, they were the priorities he identified, like the season before where he identified FDJ and fixated on him and we ended up blowing a wad on Antony in desperation.
What he could have and should have anticipated is that he did not have sufficient and/or reliably fit players to fit the system he wants to play.
And what you consistently fail to address is WHY oh WHY given the players he has at his disposal, no matter how we have arrived at this point has he persisted to use a system that would be high risk even with a perfect 11 with players who are clearly not capable of doing what he is asking.... this is in and of itself evidence that he does not have a fecking clue what he is doing!
It seems that you will excuse ETH or everything.... he could curl one down in front of you and you would blame the dog!
Very good video to sum up how it's going and will end Ten Hag as manager if he doesn't rectify it. Not sure if he will change his ways to fix it.
To me if INEOS decide to stick with him for next season then and he continues this way then we need to spulge the transfer kitty on new midfielders that can get around the pitch and mobile. Not working with Bruno and Casemiro in there.
Southgate would be a poor choice for various reasons and the style of football that England play with the players available is not what I want to see.
I guess you can argue Southgate is Englands best manage since 66 and has done what needed to be done to be relatively successful in cup competitions, but imo a better manager wins the games against Croatia, Italy and France. Losing the final against Italy was criminal and everyone could see the game slipping away bar Southgate.
Southgate would need to change his approach if he were to be appointed but I do not see the benefit of this when you can simply appoint somebody who is already playing progressive football.
This would be a bad start from INEOS imo.
Would it not be wise to adapt tactically to deal with this rather than just standing there wondering why we’re getting chinned by Bournemouth?
I don't think this style of play is sustainable, even with more athletic and mobile midfielders. We'll always get cut open by good teams who know how to exploit that space.
Luke Shaw was very available for us last year. And I've already spoken about how he wanted a defender and a midfielder.
Ive also debated the system point if you bothered to read my posts and not lazily accuse me of some mindless sympathasiser.
I agree with you.
Not that I like how we play but I disagree, how we play would work if our midfield was a lot more mobile and aggressive. But Bruno plays to high and is likely a bit slow anyway, Case is too old/slow and so it's basically an 18 year old trying to break up counters and track runners (which he actually does pretty well). Randomly, our most 'balanced' setup is probably Case behind Mainoo and McT to be honest given the mobility in the 8's, it's just such a reduction in quality.
Some of my evaluation of Ten Hag and United are :
+ They were a bit unlucky with the Antony and Sancho this season. And it took a bit time before Ten hag start using Garnacho as RW. When things like that happen. You cannot only blame the manager and his staff.
+ Unlucky with Mainoo injury in preseason
+ Unlucky with Martinez injury. Varane injury here and there. Same with Casemiro and Maguire.
And it looks and seem like it reguire and demand a really good RW, CM duo and CBs to get top 4 this season.
Others teams had injury too. But theirs squad are stronger. Like City with De Bruyne and Liverpool with Salah and Jota.
Plus Spurs and Villa do has a really good XI and squad this season.
Sum of all this happen this season. United and Ten Hag might could do a bit better. But this belong to a strange season.
I don't think any managers post Fergie has troubles with theirs RW options before. High level of injuries of key players too.
So i will see when Højlund and Martinez back later this season. To see how good and dominate United will look with those players in the team.
They were good when those 2 players were back. But like every managers. They need theirs best players available.
+ They were a bit unlucky with the Antony and Sancho this season. And it took a bit time before Ten hag start using Garnacho as RW. When things like that happen. You cannot only blame the manager and his staff.
+ Unlucky with Mainoo injury in preseason
+ Unlucky with Martinez injury. Varane injury here and there. Same with Casemiro and Maguire.
And it looks and seem like it reguire and demand a really good RW, CM duo and CBs to get top 4 this season.
Others teams had injury too. But theirs squad are stronger. Like City with De Bruyne and Liverpool with Salah and Jota.
Plus Spurs and Villa do has a really good XI and squad this season.
Sum of all this happen this season. United and Ten Hag might could do a bit better. But this belong to a strange season.
I don't think any managers post Fergie has troubles with theirs RW options before. High level of injuries of key players too.
So i will see when Højlund and Martinez back later this season. To see how good and dominate United will look with those players in the team.
They were good when those 2 players were back. But like every managers. They need theirs best players available.
"unlucky" is now being used to ameliorate his tenure. incredible
Our shiteness extends beyond just this season and into a good portion of the last. You could forgive the performances because the results were decent to good. Serving up shite results as well as shite performances is a decent way to get sacked, though.
Ten Hag does not want us to defend deep. The squad defenders are retreating deep because they aren't comfortable stepping out into a high line.
At no point in his career up until now has ten hag played a deep defence with a high press, so this idea that this is happening by design is stone cold bollocks.
Extremely unlucky would probably be more accurate.
So the players are defying his instruction? That's pretty alarming, and flies in the face of the idea that they are completely behind him.
Outside of every teams not named Ajax and even then in the CL against bigger clubs that's exactly what they would do. Press for a short period of time in order to allow the defense to set relatively deep, stay solid and counter attack.
Less defying and more naturally falling back because they're not able to execute it well enough. He needs better squad players at the back.
EDIT: Basically this:
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Ten Hag did not have a defence sitting deep with a big gap between them and midfield at Ajax, or Utrecht or last season with Manchester United.
This idea that he is wanting to have a sea's gap between his old defenders and his midfielders by design is a bit nonsense. He obviously doesn't want that to happen in periods within games, he's expressed frustration defending half spaces etc. too.
I'm convinced many of our fans don't know the difference between having a superior squad in terms of names rather than actual practicality. United has literally the worst assembled squad in the league. Most of the back ups offer completely opposite profiles to direct starters. That is why its no surprise the one utilized the most basic tactics (Solksjaer) gleaned the most consistency out of the squad assembled the longest.
Okay one match they players do not follow instructions (all match no screaming from Ten Hag, no adjustments at half time), but consistently match after match, after match.... even if the players are consistently not following instructions and just doing their own thing then how does that reflect on his ability to manage, if he cannot get the players to do what he is asking, over what a period of 18 months?
For clarification, I have read your history of posts which is why I am often so incredulous in my respones.
In all seriousness and ignoring everything else you or I or anyone else has posted can I ask you, if you believe Ten Hag is in any way, shape or form responsible for anything that has happened on the pitch this season?
His Utrecht and Ajax teams had almost nothing in common and what you described isnt't true. The reality is that he has used different systems for all three teams and the only one that is 100% not his is the one he used with Ajax because he used the Ajax way dictated by Overmars. For Utrecth his team played conservatively largely with variations of 442/4312/41212 and no particular high press, from memory they didn't use much width in attack, they weren't pressing high nor where they playing with a high line but they would play fairly deep on occasions.
The point being that it's not correct to claim that a manager that doesn't have a specific approach and that has used vastly different tactics including farily low blocks won't implement a particular approach at United. In fact it's a bit strange to suggest that one of the constants for almost two years doesn't come from the manager.
Ten Hag can't exactly replace them, he's playing 4th and 5th choice players. He can't grow Lindelof/Maguire/Amrabat quicker legs, can he? I agree there were some games where pragmatism was required, and it was missed.
However, a default counter attack approach for plan A) all season doesn't suit either. It only works if your attacking players are experienced and ruthless - which his aren't this year. He was asked to focus on youthful players who are more projects, and they will need room to make a fair few mistakes. Rashford is pretty shite, I think if he was on song like last year we might have seen more pragmatism with trust that our forwards will take their only 1 or 2 chances in the game.
Last season Liverpool had a hilariously bad first half of the season, it wasn't reflective of Klopp's poor management but just how missing defensive players can completely destroy your style and momentum in games. They recovered but still ended up on 67 points, which again isn't far off what we'd be likely to end on this year.
Yes, and ironically if you had read my posts like you claimed you wouldn't need to ask.
I'll say it again - neither of the systems at Utrecht or Ajax were adopting an approach whereby the defence and midfield had a wide gap between them.
I did not say Utrecht and Ajax had similar styles. What they both did have in common was the above.
I don't think Ten Hag is averse to using low blocks by design at United, but in games where he has been more pragmatic and deeper, he has assigned the whole squad to do this. I don't think he set out vs Fulham asking the team to play deeper, nor do I think he did this for Wolves or Bournemouth. But these are the games that are being analysed to ridicule his tactics. These are games where I think the defence and midfield were disjointed, and it was a poor execution of the vision - which is a combination of blame on manager and the pedigree of the squad players.
Games where he showed pragmatism by design, with a solid structure include Arsenal, Liverpool and of course City. The team did not look open in those games.
It's true and neither of these systems had much in common. Your point would be relevant if these two approaches were linked but they weren't.
To understand my point you can answer this question, what makes you think that a manager that used two completely different approaches in his last two clubs wouldn't use a completely different approach for the third? As I said your point would make a lot of sense if Utrecth and Ajax played similarly or even had a little bit in common but they didn't.
His Ajax team played a high possession game with high press, even then he had several big alterations one where the width almost exclusively provided by fullbacks and an other where fullbacks added numbers inside and the wingers remained wide, these alteration came from the fact that Overmars brought totally different players during the ETH's tenure and the other alteration was the posseesion and line height approach which was completely different in the CL.
His Utrecht team was a counter attacking team with low possession, he mid to low block and often little widtch(from memory).
There is no particular reason to claim that he wouldn't implement a third approach that isn't based on Utrech or Ajax since these two approaches were quite obviously dissimilar.
If we have not had so many injuries, we would likely be in top 4 or at least closely challenging it. However, I do feel that with the bench players, ETH should have adjusted the playing style accordingly. Insisting on playing the same tactics when the players aren't up to it is suicide.
Yeah I've pretty much accepted things might get worse before they get better...
Having said that, I'm hoping that we'll at least begin to see some green shoots over the next few years, such as finally getting the recruitment going in the right direction.