WWC23 | England v Spain - Spain win the World Cup - and Rubiales gets sacked

horsechoker

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It started with a kiss

Never thought it would come to this

Luis Rubiales: Prosecutors want jail for World Cup kiss

Spanish prosecutors want the ex-head of the country's football federation to be jailed for two-and-a-half years after he kissed a female footballer following Spain's World Cup victory.

Luis Rubiales is facing charges of sexual assault and coercion over a non-consensual kiss on the mouth he gave to Jenni Hermoso last August.

Hermoso and her team mates said the kiss was unwanted and demeaning.

Rubiales was forced to resign, but has denied any wrongdoing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68679506
 

Rood

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I assume that is some kind of maximum potential sentence and realistically it will be much less
 

B20

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That's a bit mad to be honest. Seek 2.5 years for all the other bad shit he did, but I don't get how the penalty can go that high for that kind of offence.
 

giorno

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That's a bit mad to be honest. Seek 2.5 years for all the other bad shit he did, but I don't get how the penalty can go that high for that kind of offence.
Sexual assault?
 

jojojo

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That's a bit mad to be honest. Seek 2.5 years for all the other bad shit he did, but I don't get how the penalty can go that high for that kind of offence.
There are basically two related sets of charges. One is the unwanted kiss itself - where they've asked for 12 months. The other is for his and his RFEFs allies attempts to push her to say she'd given consent - the prosecutor ssked for 18 months for that.

When the attempt to coerce her (and her family and teammates) failed, he got RFEFs PR team to invent and publish a statement from her saying it was all fine and he had nothing to apologise about. When she complained about them making up a statement, he got RFEFs legal team to threaten to sue her.

First offence convictions below two years usually get suspended in Spain. Chances are that he'll be fined and get a suspended sentence. There may be a ban on him working in sport as well.
 

SilentWitness

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Is this sexual assault?
Does this deserve a 2-and-a-half-year sentence?
A brief hug and a seemingly consensual kiss where the woman left with a broad smile on her face.
Hermoso has said it was not consensual.
 

jojojo

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Is this sexual assault?
Does this deserve a 2-and-a-half-year sentence?
A brief hug and a seemingly consensual kiss where the woman left with a broad smile on her face.
She's just won the world cup of course she's smiling. Besides that is there any woman out there who has not been told to "laugh it off" when someone does something she finds offensive or belittling?

In any case, the initial incident would have been 12 month maximum - and would have been converted to a fine and maybe a suspended sentence, if it even got to court. The other 18 months comes from the bullying and coersion directed at Hermosa and her family and teammates in the aftermath. He was her boss's boss - he used RFEF full-time officers to help him try and bully her into saying she was fine with it.
 

B20

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There are basically two related sets of charges. One is the unwanted kiss itself - where they've asked for 12 months. The other is for his and his RFEFs allies attempts to push her to say she'd given consent - the prosecutor ssked for 18 months for that.

When the attempt to coerce her (and her family and teammates) failed, he got RFEFs PR team to invent and publish a statement from her saying it was all fine and he had nothing to apologise about. When she complained about them making up a statement, he got RFEFs legal team to threaten to sue her.

First offence convictions below two years usually get suspended in Spain. Chances are that he'll be fined and get a suspended sentence. There may be a ban on him working in sport as well.
That all makes a lot more sense.
 

Goalfather

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Try again and this time add the charge of coersion and his post offence behaviour towards her, her family and teammates.

Also tell me have you ever heard the phrase: "just laugh it off," or maybe even, "don't let that moron spoil it".
Firstly there was no offence, it was a very fleeting seemingly consensual non-amorous embrace and kiss.

Such evidence wouldn't meet the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard in a rational context. Yet, absurdly, this incident has had severe repercussions for Rubiales, now including potential loss of freedom and mandatory registration as a sex offender.

The phrases you quoted are problematic in itself, because mayhaps "laughing it off" can oftentimes be indiscernible from consent and approval of an action. As I have said continually in this thread that I had no idea who Rubiales was before this incident nor do I care about the Spanish FA. But I have lived long enough to identify when an incident and reaction to an incident is escalated for political gain.
 

jojojo

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As I have said continually in this thread that I had no idea who Rubiales was before this incident nor do I care about the Spanish FA. But I have lived long enough to identify when an incident and reaction to an incident is escalated for political gain.
He escalated it. A straightforward apology would have have minimised the damage to him and wouldn't have spoiled the party when they got back to Spain with a World Cup.

Instead he did what he always did, he lied, bluffed and bullied. He then used his position of authority to get his minions to do his dirty work and lie to the press and threaten legal action against the player. Why did he do that? Because he's used to getting away with things, because doubling down has worked for him.

You say, you knew nothing about about him beforehand - but you reckon you can judge him and her based on a couple of seconds of video. The woman stood next to him on the podium (from the English FA) had a harsher judgment of his behaviour, based on what she observed that night. The women who've worked with him have a harsher judgment based on long observations of his behaviour away from the cameras.

I get that you feel that you know more than the people involved on the night and the people who know his history. Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well. Like any narcissist Rubiales went smoothly from saying people were idiots for complaining to self-justifying bluffing through to bullying - because that's what he has always done.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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As I have said continually in this thread that I had no idea who Rubiales was before this incident nor do I care about the Spanish FA. But I have lived long enough to identify when an incident and reaction to an incident is escalated for political gain.
It is because you don't know about the Spanish FA that you think this was 'escalated for political gain' instead of understanding it as the straw that broke the camel's back.
 

Semper Fudge

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Is this sexual assault?
Does this deserve a 2-and-a-half-year sentence?
A brief hug and a seemingly consensual kiss where the woman left with a broad smile on her face.
It’s the very definition of it as it wasn’t consensual, no matter how “seemingly” it was.
 

antk

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He escalated it. A straightforward apology would have have minimised the damage to him and wouldn't have spoiled the party when they got back to Spain with a World Cup.

Instead he did what he always did, he lied, bluffed and bullied. He then used his position of authority to get his minions to do his dirty work and lie to the press and threaten legal action against the player. Why did he do that? Because he's used to getting away with things, because doubling down has worked for him.

You say, you knew nothing about about him beforehand - but you reckon you can judge him and her based on a couple of seconds of video. The woman stood next to him on the podium (from the English FA) had a harsher judgment of his behaviour, based on what she observed that night. The women who've worked with him have a harsher judgment based on long observations of his behaviour away from the cameras.

I get that you feel that you know more than the people involved on the night and the people who know his history. Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well. Like any narcissist Rubiales went smoothly from saying people were idiots for complaining to self-justifying bluffing through to bullying - because that's what he has always done.
Just want to say thank you for your posts.
 

Rood

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Scanny

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He escalated it. A straightforward apology would have have minimised the damage to him and wouldn't have spoiled the party when they got back to Spain with a World Cup.

Instead he did what he always did, he lied, bluffed and bullied. He then used his position of authority to get his minions to do his dirty work and lie to the press and threaten legal action against the player. Why did he do that? Because he's used to getting away with things, because doubling down has worked for him.

You say, you knew nothing about about him beforehand - but you reckon you can judge him and her based on a couple of seconds of video. The woman stood next to him on the podium (from the English FA) had a harsher judgment of his behaviour, based on what she observed that night. The women who've worked with him have a harsher judgment based on long observations of his behaviour away from the cameras.

I get that you feel that you know more than the people involved on the night and the people who know his history. Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well. Like any narcissist Rubiales went smoothly from saying people were idiots for complaining to self-justifying bluffing through to bullying - because that's what he has always done.
Excellent post.
And exactly right. What an absolute shame for those Spanish women that it took a moment the entire world was watching for them finally to be believed.
 

RoyH1

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Such a nice guy.

He really is.
The thing is, he's not alone. Lot's and lot's more of the men in that building are knee deep in a cesspool of corruption. Right now he's the fall guy. Look out for Piqué being brought in too.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Rubiales told La Sexta: "You cannot question Jennifer Hermoso, but you can question me - because I am a man? For me there is no crime against Jennifer Hermoso.

"Whoever sees the images... I can't understand that anyone would consider it a sexual assault.

"Those who are victims of everything are my family and my friends."
 

Goalfather

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The entire interaction between Rubiales and Hermoso during the ceremony can be seen as one of mutual jest and amusement. It's clear from the footage that Hermoso tiptoes slightly to lift Rubiales, who appears to dramatize the action. Following this, he kisses her, to which she responds with a smile, clapping him on the sides before continuing to greet the other dignitaries warmly. There is no evidence of even the briefest look of distress on her face.
 

Goalfather

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He escalated it. A straightforward apology would have have minimised the damage to him and wouldn't have spoiled the party when they got back to Spain with a World Cup.

Instead he did what he always did, he lied, bluffed and bullied. He then used his position of authority to get his minions to do his dirty work and lie to the press and threaten legal action against the player. Why did he do that? Because he's used to getting away with things, because doubling down has worked for him.

You say, you knew nothing about about him beforehand - but you reckon you can judge him and her based on a couple of seconds of video. The woman stood next to him on the podium (from the English FA) had a harsher judgment of his behaviour, based on what she observed that night. The women who've worked with him have a harsher judgment based on long observations of his behaviour away from the cameras.

I get that you feel that you know more than the people involved on the night and the people who know his history. Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well. Like any narcissist Rubiales went smoothly from saying people were idiots for complaining to self-justifying bluffing through to bullying - because that's what he has always done.

As I have said numerous times on this thread that my opinion is based solely on the video evidence presented. The video above shows more of the interaction from a different angle and it confirms my initial opinion on the matter. He embraces her, she jokingly attempts to lift him, he exaggerates the lift by raising his legs off the floor , they briefly embrace, he kisses her on the lips and she pats him and moves down the line to embrace the other person. I did not see anything sexual in any of the gestures and I was and still am astounded that a man might lose his liberty for an incident, that was ill-judged but surely not criminal. My comments were based on that singular interaction, nothing more and nothing less.

Rubiales' plight has clearly moved you so much that you've come out of six months hibernation from the site to post in this thread - but I've lived a long time as well.
It is a topic that intrigues me and I have a unique perspective on situations like these because I was once falsely accused of sexual harassment by a third party. The accusations were ignored because it was part of a wider set of allegations that involved others which no one in the organisation wanted to deal with. I had to threaten legal action to have the accusations investigated properly and when interviewed the persons told the truth , that I did not harass them and that our differences were solely work-related. It was not a pleasant time waiting for vindication, seeing the smirks and hearing the comments while knowing that I did nothing to deserve such treatment and the real fear that the persons might be coopted into the lies for their own benefit. The vindication however was never widely circulated as the accusations. There is not a day that I do not remember it.

I can also see the other side in that if the accusations made against me were indeed true, the victims would have had an equally difficult time in getting their stories heard. I have many friends who would have detailed to me their personal experiences of sexual abuse and even rape. None of these friends ever reported these incidents. I believe that accusations should be taken seriously and investigated with rigour but the possibility of persons manipulating the system for their own personal gain cannot be ignored. Women like men also have the capacity to lie and manipulate situations for their own benefit. This is why we have burdens of proof.

Rubiales behaviour was ill-judged and not exactly what I would have expected from a Senior FA official and I will not lose any sleep if he is jailed for any legitimate crimes he has committed. But this does not pass the smell test and is likely to create certain precedents that run counter to natural justice