Everton deducted 10 points for PSR breach (reduced to 6) | Deducted further 2 points for second breach

JediSith

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 13, 2023
Messages
960
I think FFP has become convoluted. It was basically a way for old money clubs to stop competition. I was always against it.

The way to protect clubs is to assess the owners and prevent leverage takeovers with debt placed on the club like with the Glazers and also prevent debt being used to buy players.

I was looking at Nottingham Forest. Basically they fell foul of FFP because they refused a £30m offer for a player and then sold that player for £41m a few months later. If they were able to apply that £41m then they would not have broken any rules.

Competition is good. I love United. But really the club that has no business spending £100m plus every summer is the club that’s £800m in debt, and taking out credit from Santander bank to fund transfers.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,735
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
JediSith said:
I think FFP has become convoluted. It was basically a way for old money clubs to stop competition. I was always against it.

The way to protect clubs is to assess the owners and prevent leverage takeovers with debt placed on the club like with the Glazers and also prevent debt being used to buy players.

I was looking at Nottingham Forest. Basically they fell foul of FFP because they refused a £30m offer for a player and then sold that player for £41m a few months later. If they were able to apply that £41m then they would not have broken any rules.

Competition is good. I love United. But really the club that has no business spending £100m plus every summer is the club that’s £800m in debt, and taking out credit from Santander bank to fund transfers.
Click to expand...
Debt/credit is a very normal part of corporation finances. I’m not sure using United as why FFP is bad is really a good example. We generate our own income and comfortably service our accounts with our own revenue.

The “bad” debt issue for us is down to the Glazers vampiric running of the club and without that we would be in a better position to spend more comfortably within FFP rules.
 

Plant0x84

Shame we’re aren’t more like Brighton
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
13,201
Location
Carpark and snack area adjacent to the abyss
I think that Forest deduction sets the stage for Everton to have the four points they got back taken off them again. Genuinely feels like they are being stitched up, not sure what the motive would be though.
 

JediSith

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 13, 2023
Messages
960
Pexbo said:
Debt/credit is a very normal part of corporation finances. I’m not sure using United as why FFP is bad is really a good example. We generate our own income and comfortably service our accounts with our own revenue.

The “bad” debt issue for us is down to the Glazers vampiric running of the club and without that we would be in a better position to spend more comfortably within FFP rules.
Click to expand...
I agree with what you say about United generating its own revenue. And if we were spending money with our own money or the glazers money while still servicing the debt then that would be fine. But having to take out a credit facility for transfers means our revenue was no longer allowing us to do that and as we all know the glazers were not going to throw their own money in.
 

JediSith

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 13, 2023
Messages
960
Rooney in Paris said:
Yes but no.
Click to expand...
No but Yes.
Look at the clubs that pushed for it the most. Real, Barca, United, Liverpool, Bayern.

Real are interesting. A club that marketed itself on the Galaticos project even before it had the revenue to justify such transfers in the early 00s.

United, even before the Glazers, you could understand because we’ve always been a self sustained club.
 

MegadrivePerson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Messages
1,580
JediSith said:
I was looking at Nottingham Forest. Basically they fell foul of FFP because they refused a £30m offer for a player and then sold that player for £41m a few months later. If they were able to apply that £41m then they would not have broken any rules.
Click to expand...
Forest fell foul of FFP because they spent £250 million on 40 odd players in 12 months.

Also they should have accepted the lower offer for Johnson in order to meet the deadline.

I have zero sympathy for them.
 

MegadrivePerson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Messages
1,580
Back on topic, it sounds like Everton are in major financial trouble.

If they go down I could see them going under.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
53,227
MegadrivePerson said:
Back on topic, it sounds like Everton are in major financial trouble.

If they go down I could see them going under.
Click to expand...
When was the last big club to go under?
They might be in a right mess and go down, but they won't go to the wall.
 

brian017

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
2,371
Location
Ireland
At least if they go down Liverpool might have to actually play 38 games a season
 

One Night Only

Prison Bitch #24604
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
30,817
Location
Westworld
The sad thing is, even if Everton go down, somehow Dyche will still be managing in the premier league next season
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
120,107
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Everton have always had a good conveyor belt for young talent. They need to start dumping the high earners and high worth players to start getting money in the door so if they do go down they can rely on developing youth. My grandad and my mum were Everton fans so I have a soft spot for them. I hope that they don’t go under financially.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,603
Supports
Everton
Plant0x84 said:
What’s going on with the take over now? Has it collapsed? Feels like it all hangs on that now.
Click to expand...
Apparently getting closer all the time but reports regarding them basically fully funding the club now is a bit worrying.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,603
Supports
Everton
golden_blunder said:
Everton have always had a good conveyor belt for young talent. They need to start dumping the high earners and high worth players to start getting money in the door so if they do go down they can rely on developing youth. My grandad and my mum were Everton fans so I have a soft spot for them. I hope that they don’t go under financially.
Click to expand...
That's what we have been doing for the past three years in regards to selling high wage earners. The problem with FFP though is that relying on developing youth doesn't work when you're fecked financially because you need to sell the youth players to get most profit into the clubs books.

That's why Gordon, Simms and Cannon were sold. Thats why Branthwaite will eventually go (not youth per say but bought young for a low fee).
 

Bale Bale Bale

Full Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
2,252
Supports
Spurs
MegadrivePerson said:
Forest fell foul of FFP because they spent £250 million on 40 odd players in 12 months.

Also they should have accepted the lower offer for Johnson in order to meet the deadline.

I have zero sympathy for them.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of Red Bull when their defence for going over the cost cap was that they spent too much on catering.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
120,107
Location
Dublin, Ireland
SilentWitness said:
That's what we have been doing for the past three years in regards to selling high wage earners. The problem with FFP though is that relying on developing youth doesn't work when you're fecked financially because you need to sell the youth players to get most profit into the clubs books.

That's why Gordon, Simms and Cannon were sold. Thats why Branthwaite will eventually go (not youth per say but bought young for a low fee).
Click to expand...
Do you have a breakdown of the salaries?
 

DoubleDinhos

Liverpool Fan
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
1,080
Location
The Dreaded Lubyanka
brian017 said:
At least if they go down Liverpool might have to actually play 38 games a season
Click to expand...
More like City will have to. This is something that should be in that myths thread; Everton are always good for snatching a draw or two every season against us. Have a look how many points they've taken off City in the last 8 years, particularly the years we've been competing with them. In a world where we're still challenging (obviously not given after Klopp leaves) Everton falling down the leagues would be a net benefit.

On topic, I've not read the statement. How is it possible Everton are making such a loss when they're selling key players every year and signing mostly loan and whatever rubbish they can get for no money up front? Is the stadium that much of a millstone? And, no matter what happens this season, and before even thinking about the ownership, what the hell are they doing next year when they have to actually start paying for Beto and Chermiti and they have to actually sign wingers? And they'll no doubt need to sign someone to replace Branthwaite. They're screwed.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
18,276
Supports
Aston Villa
MegadrivePerson said:
Back on topic, it sounds like Everton are in major financial trouble.

If they go down I could see them going under.
Click to expand...
Pretty certain they'll sell Branthwaite for FFP so will be a few in based on what he's shown this season (although Tarkowski has been a big help for him).

Calvert Lewin will be offered to likes of Newcastle, Fulham, West Ham so that's maybe 15m although more based on his form three years ago than now.

Onana also will leave although given what they signed him for I don't think it would show a huge profit in FFP terms.

Basically they're stuffed next season even if they stay up and would be even worse to go down in Goodison's final season.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
18,276
Supports
Aston Villa
golden_blunder said:
Do you have a breakdown of the salaries?
Click to expand...
Michael Keane, Ben Godfrey and Mason Holgate (returning after two disastrous loans at Southampton and Sheffield United) all got bumper contracts in 20-21 period. All will still be there start of next season and likely one will have to start with Branthwaite gone.

Think those three take in excess of 200k + a week when you combine the three salaries. Keane was still on the fringes of his England squad when he got his new deal and Godfrey cost 25m from Norwich.

Surely two and a bit years in there must be some break clause in Dele Alli's deal as just a waste of time having him on their books now when he's barely played a serious match since 2021.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,603
Supports
Everton
FootballHQ said:
Michael Keane, Ben Godfrey and Mason Holgate (returning after two disastrous loans at Southampton and Sheffield United) all got bumper contracts in 20-21 period. All will still be there start of next season and likely one will have to start with Branthwaite gone.

Think those three take in excess of 200k + a week when you combine the three salaries. Keane was still on the fringes of his England squad when he got his new deal and Godfrey cost 25m from Norwich.

Surely two and a bit years in there must be some break clause in Dele Alli's deal as just a waste of time having him on their books now when he's barely played a serious match since 2021.
Click to expand...
Keane or Holgate will go. Maybe both. We have already been trying to get rid. We will just do more Beto type deals where we pay little to nothing up front and of course loans.
 

Mb194dc

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2015
Messages
4,670
Supports
Chelsea
Sandikan said:
When was the last big club to go under?
They might be in a right mess and go down, but they won't go to the wall.
Click to expand...
Administration, fire sale of all their assets and they'll probably be stuck in the lower leagues after that?

Football generally is a joke financially, almost no teams actually make money.

Was surprised when Clearlake went for us saying it'll be NFL'd.

Maybe, in a few decades.
 

The Urban Goose

Full Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
1,398
MegadrivePerson said:
Forest fell foul of FFP because they spent £250 million on 40 odd players in 12 months.

Also they should have accepted the lower offer for Johnson in order to meet the deadline.

I have zero sympathy for them.
Click to expand...
It's hardly in the spirit of good financial health to give away £15m for the sake of an artificial deadline though, is it.

Anyway, I've not been following the PSR cases that much as I find it interminably dull and nonsensical, but how have Everton got themselves into the position whether they might go under despite these rules? Weren't the rules intended to stop bankruptcies?
 

MegadrivePerson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Messages
1,580
The Urban Goose said:
It's hardly in the spirit of good financial health to give away £15m for the sake of an artificial deadline though, is it.

Anyway, I've not been following the PSR cases that much as I find it interminably dull and nonsensical, but how have Everton got themselves into the position whether they might go under despite these rules? Weren't the rules intended to stop bankruptcies?
Click to expand...
It's what clubs in Europe have been doing for years.

You can't have your cake and eat it, which is what some of these clubs want to do!

Yes, and Everton are paying the price for years of bad, desperate spending.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,603
Supports
Everton
MegadrivePerson said:
It's what clubs in Europe have been doing for years.

You can't have your cake and eat it, which is what some of these clubs want to do!

Yes, and Everton are paying the price for years of bad, desperate spending.
Click to expand...
Not really desperate, just bad. We tried to compete with the big boys and got a lot of decisions horribly wrong.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
18,276
Supports
Aston Villa
SilentWitness said:
Keane or Holgate will go. Maybe both. We have already been trying to get rid. We will just do more Beto type deals where we pay little to nothing up front and of course loans.
Click to expand...
Unless you pay up Holgate's deal a year early I struggle to see who will want him given his first loan at Southampton began with him playing in a 5-0 defeat at Sunderland and then swiftly being taken out of the team again. Then goes to Sheffield United and straight away gets sent off for an appalling tackle on Mitoma. See he started the Fulham game at the weekend but I struggle to think they'll want to sign him permanently.

Keane has totally lost all his confidence so he'd be a big risk for anyone. Dyche really had no choice but to take him out and put in Branthwaite after the 4-0 loss to us in August and that's been the one main success of your season.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
30,603
Supports
Everton
FootballHQ said:
Unless you pay up Holgate's deal a year early I struggle to see who will want him given his first loan at Southampton began with him playing in a 5-0 defeat at Sunderland and then swiftly being taken out of the team again. Then goes to Sheffield United and straight away gets sent off for an appalling tackle on Mitoma. See he started the Fulham game at the weekend but I struggle to think they'll want to sign him permanently.

Keane has totally lost all his confidence so he'd be a big risk for anyone. Dyche really had no choice but to take him out and put in Branthwaite after the 4-0 loss to us in August and that's been the one main success of your season.
Click to expand...
People buy these players. It will happen. Even if we take a loss it's better sometimes to get them off the wage bill.
 

JediSith

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 13, 2023
Messages
960
MegadrivePerson said:
Forest fell foul of FFP because they spent £250 million on 40 odd players in 12 months.

Also they should have accepted the lower offer for Johnson in order to meet the deadline.

I have zero sympathy for them.
Click to expand...
I see your point. I just think newly promoted clubs are put in a lose lose situation. On the one hand they want to stay in the prem, but history is against them. Then they see what typically works and that’s clubs spending.
 

Ayush_reddevil

Éire Abú
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
10,777
When the original point deduction was announced Everton were doing pretty well and it felt that they could survive even with a 10 point deduction but now they are struggling with even 6 points deduction. I knew that they have had a bad run but didn’t realise that they haven’t won in the league since 16th December. Think they need probably 5-6 points to survive so one win will probably be enough to keep them up
 

MegadrivePerson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Messages
1,580
JediSith said:
I see your point. I just think newly promoted clubs are put in a lose lose situation. On the one hand they want to stay in the prem, but history is against them. Then they see what typically works and that’s clubs spending.
Click to expand...
I completely understand the need for clubs to spend but Forest signed over 40 players!

It's just greed, stupidity and a careless attitude towards signing players.

Fulham and Bournemouth were promoted at the same time as Forest and managed to stay up whilst complying with the rules.

I actually think Forest have got off incredibly lightly with only 4 points being taken off.
 

MegadrivePerson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2022
Messages
1,580
Ayush_reddevil said:
When the original point deduction was announced Everton were doing pretty well and it felt that they could survive even with a 10 point deduction but now they are struggling with even 6 points deduction. I knew that they have had a bad run but didn’t realise that they haven’t won in the league since 16th December. Think they need probably 5-6 points to survive so one win will probably be enough to keep them up
Click to expand...
They'll beat Sheffield United and or Burnley.

The bigger worry for them is the takeover.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.