I think and hope he'll be sacked in the morning.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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I don't think anything has gone to plan this year.
What team and how would you have this team play?
Well I would bloody hope not because if this was the plan then god help us.
I am not paid millions of pounds a year to coach one of the biggest football clubs in the world. It does not matter what team I would pick.
Yeah, but your informed enough to make an opinion of the manager
I don't care how many injuries we've had this season, the decision to have a pressing front six and then the deepest possible defensive line is unbelievable. Honestly it's the most obvious thing in the world to know that doesn't work.
You don't need specific players not to do that so injuries shouldn't factor into it.
That's enough to want him gone as far away from this club as possible. I'm fed up of suicidal tactics that even Stevie Wonder could see don't work. I'm fed up with barely winning or getting a point after conceding a billion chances and I'm fed up of what happens when we don't get that too. I refuse to believe that the squad as it is couldn't play differently to this right now and that's it.
You don't need specific players not to do that so injuries shouldn't factor into it.
That's enough to want him gone as far away from this club as possible. I'm fed up of suicidal tactics that even Stevie Wonder could see don't work. I'm fed up with barely winning or getting a point after conceding a billion chances and I'm fed up of what happens when we don't get that too. I refuse to believe that the squad as it is couldn't play differently to this right now and that's it.
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He's had FOUR windows to do that and only bought Martinez who is a crock. He also refuses to play decent prospects like Amad and let Fernandez go on loan when we were low on LBs. Fergie came with a reputation of turning Aberdeen into league winners and UEFA cup winners. His first season, he came in the middle after Big Ron was sacked. Despite the league finishes, he was changimg the culture of the club and initiating reforms in the academy and scouting. What has ETH done on that level? Nothing. It's being done by INEOS.
People need to stop comparing him to Fergie because it is not the same.
Yes I have formed an opinion based on seeing us nearly constantly being the second best team on the pitch regardless of who we are playing. Also seeing our results makes it pretty obvious.
I don't need to know how to build an air conditioner to tell you it's hot.
Fair enough. Just watched it back and I see your point. I was focused (as were our team) on VVD and the 2 lads wrestling with him. Kobbie looks pretty clueless in the middle of the box though.
Your completely missing the point, so far you've back out of naming your team and just blah blahing, all I've said is it takes balls to not change.
We've needed to change from a counter attacking team, go and watch Ole on the overlap he actually speaks about it.
People don't just build air conditioner just in hot countries..
The way you type is slightly challenging to understand.
I have not backed out of anything. We have played horrendously for nearly the entire season.
I am nowhere near qualified to be the manager of Manchester United, no one on this forum is. Most of us watch a lot of football and can tell when a manager is leading us to play like absolute crap.
Most of our goals still come on the counter attack by the way. We just score a lot less of them.
Not far off? the top 3 teams in the league all have 70+ goals scored and average 60%+ possession. We have 45 goals scored and 49% possession. For comparison, In Klopps second season Liverpool finished 4th, they scored 78 goals and averaged 62% possession. This was before they bought Salah, Van Dijk, Allison, Fabinho, Robertson etc. It's easier then to say yep I can see how the additions could turn them into league challengers cos they were already doing very well.
That is what a good manager does, you still see his identity shine through but the execution isnt great yet. We should still see good things with ETH now, but none of us can say a single thing we are good at that can be elevated with better players.
First off. Sorry for the typing I've been drinking all day and about to go to bed.
All im trying to say is the manager hasn't changed his playing style all season, it's like he is saying to the players "You play for Man Utd" you should be able to play this way.
As a fan, I hate the counter attacking way. My favourite way of playing was 1994/5. The fact is tomorrow, fans will all say its chaos football and not understand why, but I can see why.
It's on purpose, he is forcing it. Balls out football.
This is such a disingenuous statement.
Erik has had 2 useable windows because January is a bust. Historically we’ve never done anything of note in January (obv except Bruno) He was frankly fortunate to get the winter loans that he eventually got. Our FFP concerns have made it difficult too, and you get the impression he would have liked Maguire sold last summer but the club failed to get him out despite receiving an offer. Thats why Evans was bought in on a free. Including Kambwala we have 6 CB, with only Martinez capable of playing the way Erik wants. Until the other senior 4 are sold it’s unlikely we will bring in a 7th CB. (Kambwala is a youth prospect and looks very good. We shouldn’t be selling him yet) We’ve also played most of the season without a fit specialist LB. Only Dalot has remained fit which is why we’ve had 26 different back 4 selections across the season so far. Thats no way to be building patterns and on pitch relationships.
As for calling Martinez a crock, it’s completely over the top. He’s had 2/3 freak injuries. He broke his foot running, without contact. It’s a freak injury which was always going to happen, and there is nothing he can do about it. He was also fallen on by a chunky boi West Ham player - again a freak accident that nobody could foresee.
His availability/reliability this season has been largely non existent, but turning on him and calling him a crock is out of order. Neither of the injuries are his fault, you can bet your life he will be busting a gut to get back asap.
We're informed enough to know that sitting in 6th, on a goal difference of -1 is not good enough. We're informed enough to know sitting 15th in xPTS, 18th in xGA is not good enough. We're informed enough to know we should be better than that after 2 years of his management and £400m spent.
It was his job to figure out over the course of 2 years and £400m how to get us passing the ball better, defending better, creating more chances. He's failed.
I like pizza.
It is just really, really rubbish tactical coaching, that is where the chaos comes from.
It's a tough job and he had veto over transfers.
If he'd moved on from Lindelof and spent that money elsewhere, identified a younger DM than Casemiro as plan B that he wanted during the De Jong chase, bought a different winger than Antony (to be fair, not a lot of good wingers around that summer and found a versatile LB/LCB instead of Malacia for that role, we'd be in much better shape.
There were tough calls to make, so it's not like he did disastrously, and buying Lisandro was smart and he's been unlucky in that sense, but he hasn't exactly had the magic touch either.
People defending him still have genuinely lost their minds.
Prior to this game(and probably after) we've conceded the most shots across Europe's top 5 leagues in 2024.
We are 15th in xPTs. That is not a typo. 15th in xPTs. We are closer to the relegation sides in xPTs than the top 3. Our GD is -1 after 31 games. Our xGD is even worse at -12. The last 50 or so league games, I believe our GD is barely positive.
People don't realize how bad we've been this season. This is the worst Premier Lague season we've ever had by miles.
His management all season has been deplorable. And he should have sacked 5 times by now. I can only hope INEOS boot him immediately at season's end, because if he's still our manager next season, there are no more standards at this club.
Prior to this game(and probably after) we've conceded the most shots across Europe's top 5 leagues in 2024.
We are 15th in xPTs. That is not a typo. 15th in xPTs. We are closer to the relegation sides in xPTs than the top 3. Our GD is -1 after 31 games. Our xGD is even worse at -12. The last 50 or so league games, I believe our GD is barely positive.
People don't realize how bad we've been this season. This is the worst Premier Lague season we've ever had by miles.
His management all season has been deplorable. And he should have sacked 5 times by now. I can only hope INEOS boot him immediately at season's end, because if he's still our manager next season, there are no more standards at this club.
My fairly wild guess is Ten Hag will go after the season ends and it'll be Potter on a shorter contract. He gets a chance to prove himself up to the job (which he thinks he is, wouldn't have moved from Brighton to Chelsea if not), it's someone INEOS is comfortable with, the money will be good and worst case scenario you'd figure that the risk of hurting Mainoo's development off the ball and the chaos-ball are reduced.
I'm assuming Liverpool hire Amorim, Nagelsmann turns us down and De Zerbi is seen as maybe too chaotic.
The only redeemable thing about ETH this season is knocking Liverpool out of the FA Cup and denting their title hopes slightly.
I know I know. I get it. He should have done better than this. It's disappointing to say the least. We look like a bunch of clowns. I'm not blind.
And yet...and yet...
What if he's doing the right things? What if we just have too many good players who are also the wrong sort of player? What if transition hurts more than we all thought?
Remember all those people on here who said Ronaldo would be fine in a high press team? That it would take a few months to turn us around? Turned out to be completely wrong. What if it's just really really hard because there are all kinds of things wrong at a fundamental level that we just can't see because we're not there. Crappy facilities. Bad scouting. Stupid pre season tours.Players bought at random because they were willing to come. Who knows.
Maybe just maybe the whole club sucks ass and has for years and it will take a long time to fix all this. And we have a decent guy who is willing to take on the challenge and look like an idiot while he's doing it because he knows eventually it will be Ok and he can do this? My instinct is that we should stick with him. I can't pretend it makes sense. I just think we should. I know Tuchel could come in and get us second place and then be gone a year later in a shower of recriminations. I just don't want that.
Always good to play devil's advocate on these debates. I would be happy to see the back of EtH and this bonkers way we play, but curious to understand does anyone see any positives in what we are doing?
We've been on this endless cycle of hire and fire for a decade now. The only thing we haven't done is to see a process through to the end, even if it is the bitter end.
Sacking EtH hopefully wouldn't be the "reset" we've seen time and again because we have (or are in the process of) getting a proper structure above him. One thing I never want to see again is the whole "new manager, new cycle, clean slate for everyone" that we have seen time and again.
But some posters I think have made some decent points about growing pains when transitioning, and we have diverged from what we have seen historically (low block, counter-attack only).
As @BenitoSTARR pointed out to me in another thread, and it's something I have been thinking about, there are some underlying statistics that would surprise many, such as our turnovers in the opposition defensive third, interceptions, cutting off passing lanes.. there are some good things we are doing that we weren't doing at all. Despite visually our pressing looking poor at times, statistically at least we are reaping some rewards.
While EtH's almost dogmatic approach to how we are playing frustrates the life out of me, I'll give him credit for having the guts to double-down and stick with what he believes to be something that will work.
EtH is clearly a knowledgeable guy, a lot more knowledgeable than me when it comes to football, so I'd love to know what it is that has him so hellbent on persisting with how we are playing? Are we a few key ingredients away from actually being onto something here? Or is it personal pride now on the behalf of EtH?
We've been on this endless cycle of hire and fire for a decade now. The only thing we haven't done is to see a process through to the end, even if it is the bitter end.
Sacking EtH hopefully wouldn't be the "reset" we've seen time and again because we have (or are in the process of) getting a proper structure above him. One thing I never want to see again is the whole "new manager, new cycle, clean slate for everyone" that we have seen time and again.
But some posters I think have made some decent points about growing pains when transitioning, and we have diverged from what we have seen historically (low block, counter-attack only).
As @BenitoSTARR pointed out to me in another thread, and it's something I have been thinking about, there are some underlying statistics that would surprise many, such as our turnovers in the opposition defensive third, interceptions, cutting off passing lanes.. there are some good things we are doing that we weren't doing at all. Despite visually our pressing looking poor at times, statistically at least we are reaping some rewards.
While EtH's almost dogmatic approach to how we are playing frustrates the life out of me, I'll give him credit for having the guts to double-down and stick with what he believes to be something that will work.
EtH is clearly a knowledgeable guy, a lot more knowledgeable than me when it comes to football, so I'd love to know what it is that has him so hellbent on persisting with how we are playing? Are we a few key ingredients away from actually being onto something here? Or is it personal pride now on the behalf of EtH?
Growing pains ?? What part of conceding 20+ shot matches every match while players running back to defense like crazy screams like growing pains ? Next when your kids broke both of their legs jumping from the crib you just gonna chalk it as "growing pains" ? Kids slipped over and concussed their heads ? Growing pains
Shit food from the chefs, old leaking restrooms at OT, dumb players, slippery pitches, crocked players injured everytime (gee wonder fecking why when the players need to do full sprint back to defense 20 times every match), not backed enough (after spending 500m and bringing his dutch pals), anything else other than blaming ETH ? Then your instinct sucks ass.
Compared to me you and average joes yeah for sure but remember he comes up against cream of the crop managers every week. I think the bag is already out on how to beat ETH. Basically he has been found out by oppos managers tactic wise. Even layman like us can see it i.e. cutbacks, gaping hole in midfield, etc. No wonder people who are paid profesionally to analyze tactics can abuse his weakness even beter.
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Having watched the last 2 games I think Ten Hag has deduced that his tactics are rubbish and he actually does possess good players that can put teams to the sword. It's like he's told them to just forget what he's told them and to go out and wing it, cause chaos. I said at half time that we needed to play the chaos football as we did against Chelsea as we could still win today. We basically turn games into a lottery now and hope our attackers think up something. Like a boxer in the last round needing a knockout, go out swinging. This is Ten Hags last round as it's almost over for him and he knows it.
There's way more underlying metrics that showcase just how poor we've been this season.
Totally, and I have argued that exact point. But just in the spirit of playing devil's advocate, just wondering if anyone else is seeing the makings of something coming together?
Upon reflection, I find it hard to believe EtH actively wants chaos. There must be something he's trying to achieve that he believes all of this madness from game to game is worth it? Or is he really just clueless and doubling down...
Do you really think a team that concedes the most shots across Europe's top 5 leagues in 2024 is progressing along the lines of something coming together?
Whoever is manager next year hopefully a clued in set piece coach is brought in..
Me personally? No, I don't think the way we're setting up is adding enough net benefit in any sense to justify allowing every team free reign on our goal.
But the root of the problem is clearly the gaps in midfield, which are caused by us playing a deep defensive line and a man to man midfield system which leaves so much open space. What if we had the pace in our back line to play high? What if our FB's were able to push up on the press and cut off the easy out every team has against us?
We can clearly see the problems with how we currently play. I refuse to believe EtH can't.
Our defensive line was higher with Maguire and Lindelof than Varane and Martinez apparently.
I don't think ETH wants to play with such a high line. Even if he says he does, he doesn't back it up with the approach.
This isn't a new thing though. ETH's teams have always had problems defending transitions. It was a problem he had at Ajax. It's more exacerbated now that he no longer has by far the best squad in a league. There's been enough games to come to the conclusion that ETH doesn't see it as an issue nor the remedy for it. He is who he is at this point.
Wich, in our current state and injury list, would be normal against high flying, for Premier League title fighting LFC.
So at half time the in game management ''clueless'' Ten Hag made some changes that not only got us a draw but even ahead, winning against said PL title fighting club.
When most of the criticism before this game against Ten Hag management, is that he doesn't know how to play defensively, that he is too much going forward.
But now that he does at the end of the game, exposes the complete lack of any backbone, depth to do play such a game, it is still not good enough and, in fact, he get's criticised again.
Resultswise we should have been blown off the planet. A big loss. We didn't. We have a 3rd or 4th choice CB pairing doing the work with an 18 y old and Casemiro as the only midfield we have. 2 - 2 for us, is a good result.
Personally I couldn't care less about the number of shots against. It can be 8000 for all I care. It just goes to show bad as we are, we also make the opposition somehow lose aim.
At the moment it's a numbers gaime, point by point we need to find our way and keep P6. But the almost hate like wave of emotions on our manager, the constantly digging for new meaningless pounts to cry about it just drags the quality of this thread down a lot. You don't like ETH, we get it. Please go to the who replaces ETH thread or something. Many here are trying to be constructive.
Fair enough. The only mitigating factor I can think of is availability of personnel and a potential for the recruitment of key players to make this all make sense.
But if this is all by design, then I can't really understand it, nor is there any defence of it. The bit in bold is where I become borderline feeling on the verge of insanity if I assume that EtH cannot see our shape when we lose posession / press high is all wrong. Like, how is that possible that he is where he is and doesn't see it as an issue? I guess that's where my head is at times defaulting to rationalising some bigger picture plan going on here.
I look at the positions of our midfield off the ball and get anxious. Everyone knows the Oppo is going to easily bypass our ‘press’ with one or two passes and it’s the same scrambling back that our players have to do. The number of times Bruno Mainoo and Casemiro were up in advanced positions was crazy. Yet when they were more compact in the opening 10 minutes, we looked better.
we don’t have the players to play a high octane press. Casmiro has no legs anymore, poor Mainoo looks positionally lost and I can’t recall a midfield needing to run back so many times game after game. This is in knowledge that we have Maguire who can’t play a high line, alongside a raw youngster in defence
we don’t have the players to play a high octane press. Casmiro has no legs anymore, poor Mainoo looks positionally lost and I can’t recall a midfield needing to run back so many times game after game. This is in knowledge that we have Maguire who can’t play a high line, alongside a raw youngster in defence
You surely don't think that Bruno's goal was some tactical master switch from Eric during halftime talk? Come on. Nunez had a golden opportunity to make it 2-0 when he hit Maguire just a minute before. We were defensively open at the start of the second half as well, the same as in the first half. I was thinking, we can not continue like we played in the first half. But we started the second half in the same manner.
The Bruno goal changed the complexion of the game in our favor, and it had nothing to do with the coach.
He wasn't able to do anything for 45 minutes in the first half, when we were getting torn apart. No tactical switch, no in game management. He was lucky today that it was only 1-0 at the end of the half. We play that game in the same manner as we did todsy in the first half, Liverpool will beat us 9 out of 10 times. We rely on luck a bit too much.
Some sort of 'left by mutual agreement' type thing? Part payout, thanks for all your help and good luck with your next role?
I didn't say anything about a tactical master. I said Ten Hag made a switch to defensive play when a lot here are saying he is not capable of changing tactics. That he is stubborn, that he has bad in game tactics. That, too, is something today he displayed, is not true.
Many would argue it was Ten Hag that changed the approach for the second half and even with this bad 3rd rate CB pair and woefully understafed positions, not only did we get a draw, we also got ahead. We had 6 attempts off target and 5 on target. For comparisment, the majestic, fantastic LFC had 6 attempts on target.
My main gripe here is that the criticism on Ten Hag is starting to make less and less sense. A 2 - 2 result vs LFC, going 1 down and being 2 - 1 up at some time, is simply good, period.
That's still mean sacked what the poster meant is Ten Hag gets to start the third season as United's manager as he still has year on his contract .
So why then do you believe that this is what the plan is/or what he instructs these guys to do? You’ve seen how different things are when we have the back 4 that can play on the front foot.
We see it in every game!
No, not even close. We're not on any path to success. We're not a few signings off making a title challenge. We're simply going backwards. We're as high as 6th in spite of him, not because of him. Nearly every point picked up feels like a fluke or a huge let off. Almost never do I watch a game and think we dominated, had any control, or were superior in any way.
He's benefited from our academy talent and individuals bailing him out, because contrary to what some say, we do have a handful of very good players who care. Unlike past managers who were thrown under the bus by toxic players that downed tools, this team for the most part are putting in the effort and following instructions. But they're let down by a mediocre manager setting them up to fail. Any ambitious club would remove him without hesitation.