Injuries is no excuse to keep him. When we had barely any we still performed like crap, though.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
That could be a very detrimental situation to be in. It's another season written off which has a significant impact on the club's spend with FFP and no UCL which to make matters worse, will be a repeat of the ramifications the club's going to witness in the present campaign during the upcoming summer.
Two seasons on the bounce with abysmal performances and bad results will orchestrate a toxic culture around the club again with the media weighing in and fan resentment.
The determination for Erik to stay shouldn't be to assess him for another year, but rather the assuredness and confidence that INEOS unmistakably see him as the favored individual to win the league within the (24-36) month time-frame Ratcliffe has outlined in statements. In other words, to keep Erik should be another way of saying he MUST deliver next season as a minimum standard. It's for this reason I believe they haven't subsided with their decision, you can't have the best in class across the hierarchy and have a see how it goes approach with the most fundamental position in management.
I would also support INEOS in that decision if the only viable way Erik keeps his job is by demanding he reaches the expectation above as the lowest parameter to keep him on.
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I would actually say that this is part of the problem: Did he ever had the credentials to take such a huge role? We saw he could coach at Ajax, but having such power over transfers?
It's hardly unfair, obviously, but probably not optimal.
Due to that Dortmund win (with help from Sancho) Manchester United can officially no longer qualify for next season’s Champions League
Still firmly believe he's gone, it honestly just feels like common sense. I've said previously, but you don't get to have such an embarassingly bad season and retain your job as Man United manager.
- At best narrowly avoiding an all-time low EPL point total
- Placed bottom in a very winnable CL group
- Dumped out of the League Cup at home, losing 0-3 to Newcastle
- A toenail away from being eliminated from the FA Cup by a mid-table Championship side.
With INEOS trimming the fat and getting the right people in place I think European football is on the cards next season.
We have evidence to suggest that with a largely fit squad and selection of players available Ten Hag can get CL football and also reach finals. So it is reasonable to assume that can happen again.
I agree with you regarding the bolded.
That's the long and short of it. I don't blame him for Casemiro losing his legs, or Hojlund being too raw for the money.
In general, I haven't blamed managers for transfers as I agree the setup is a mess. Most of them inherited squads in line with what a previous completely different style manager wanted and then their plans got sprinkled with random marketing and social media calls like Pogba. Ole also completely lost control once they dumped Cristiano on him.
The thing in this case though is he should have just told them they were completely bonkers. Any one of us can tell you an 80M flop from your former club is going to be a colossal weight on a new manager's shoulders. The only explanation really is that he thought it would work and that disqualifies him for the job if we are honest.
The absolute cheek on this guy to suggest we have been the most dynamic and entertaining team in the league.
My fear is that he believes this shite. On no account should we keep this Pep Guardiola is my idol in the club next summer.
We need to excise like a Cancer
My fear is that he believes this shite. On no account should we keep this Pep Guardiola is my idol in the club next summer.
We need to excise like a Cancer
In retrospect, it seems to me that Ten Hag was at fault in each and every fight he had with players! He is stubborn, he has some ideas but he cannot adapt them to the actual players he has available, he cannot really understand who has what talent, and he has favorites. All these are serious deficiencies, especially for a top manager. As a top manager, you have to understand what each one of your players can do and cannot do, and somehow find a way to inspire them to perform at 100%.
For example, we don't really know what exactly happened between Sancho and ETH. But we know that last year ETH was constantly using his boy Antony on the right, despite the fact that he was not performing. And then in the summer, he tried Sancho as a striker. Perhaps Sancho told him "Mister, I am not a striker". Why ETH did not try Antony as a striker? Antony has been useless on the right. But of course for ETH "Antony is unstoppable", so he has to play in his favorite position. Naturally, Sancho was upset that ETH so blatantly prefered to play an inferior player. This does not mean that Sancho does not have deficiencies. But it certainly means that ETH is not good at managing.
For example, we don't really know what exactly happened between Sancho and ETH. But we know that last year ETH was constantly using his boy Antony on the right, despite the fact that he was not performing. And then in the summer, he tried Sancho as a striker. Perhaps Sancho told him "Mister, I am not a striker". Why ETH did not try Antony as a striker? Antony has been useless on the right. But of course for ETH "Antony is unstoppable", so he has to play in his favorite position. Naturally, Sancho was upset that ETH so blatantly prefered to play an inferior player. This does not mean that Sancho does not have deficiencies. But it certainly means that ETH is not good at managing.
Their Tweets are.
Ten Hag is or has been the structure, before Ineos came along.
He asked for control of transfers, presumebly control over identifying targets going off the players we've signed the last 2 years. It's a responsibility he wanted and accepts. There's no narrative, we have direct quotes from Ten Hag himself.
The structure will be deciding who stays and goes, Ten Hag or whoever probably won't have much say. The players are mostly Ten Hags at this stage.
As bad as the injuries have been they've not been that much worse that we've dealt with in other seasons. And they shouldn't be enough to keep him in a job, there are failings evident every time we play that have little to do with missing players.
We've been doing that under every manager bar Moyes for the last decade, that's a pretty low bar to aim for Manchester United. Ten Hag was hired to be the man to have us challenging for league titles by year 3 or 4.
With Ole, too. What's the difference?
Facts.
And we need to do that sustainably because right now that’s not a low bar it’s something we’ve yo-yod in and out of.
We are not a big team in the modern era.
We’ll see what next season brings.
No, thanks. Two years are more than enough to understand that this person is not a top manager, and will never be. He is not good enough in ANY aspect of football management. And he is too old and too stubborn, so he will not learn from his failures. Next please.
Dortmund just guaranteed that 5th CL spot for Germany which means we can officially sack this guy off for less money.
Awww shucks
Even if we have everyone back, we will still leak goals. Our current tactics allows teams to counterattack with 3 versus 2 or 4 versus 3 situations over and over again. Martinez will have a torrid time defending and he will ultimately ends up injured again. Why are there so many defenders injure today? What is the reason? ETH out!
How many of Aston Villa’s players are Emerys players? Or are they Slippy Gs players? Or are they Dean Smiths players?
Same with Eddie Howe, how many Newcastle players are his? Or are they Rafas players? Or Steve Bruce?
I hate this argument that a coach needs a 25 man squad of all his own players. That develops over time and transfer windows.
A coach gets to that privileged position AFTER proving that they can improve the squad and players that they have.
If, and I still think its a massive if, he's still here next season, the amount of changes that'll need to happen to the squad and his coaching will be unlike anything we've ever seen in one summer.
This thread has its own bust/boom/bust cycle...but on a weekly basis.
There is a feeling of haplessness after every game & shit performance, the Haggites disappear for a while or keep a low profile for a day or two, by Wednesday or Thursday they come back with the old vigor and excuses - injuries, squad is not his, that famous CL semi-final run, no one else is there, structure, blah, blah, blah - the same old hits, then the reverence reaches peak devotion till the game begins, then comes the "I am not as supportive as I was before this shit performance", disappear again, rinse and repeat.
There is a feeling of haplessness after every game & shit performance, the Haggites disappear for a while or keep a low profile for a day or two, by Wednesday or Thursday they come back with the old vigor and excuses - injuries, squad is not his, that famous CL semi-final run, no one else is there, structure, blah, blah, blah - the same old hits, then the reverence reaches peak devotion till the game begins, then comes the "I am not as supportive as I was before this shit performance", disappear again, rinse and repeat.
Yeah that's a very good point,let's face it the chances of getting a Tuchel/Amorim/Flick mid season is remote to say the least
Emery was able to sign Diaby, Pau, Moreno and Tielemans, and get Zaniolo and Lenglet on loan. It’s different though as we have already been told by ETH brigade that he had inherited a vastly superior squad.
No, they aren't.
He asked for a say in strategy and veto. Yes that means an element of control but it certainly doesn't mean sold control.
Many good managers joined mid-season, including Klopp and Emery within our league. It doesn’t matter though because if we keep ETH he’s going to get full season.
I’m also sure there will be injuries next season that will excuse him for any below par performances too. Not many teams are able to ever field their full best XI with fully healthy bench but it seems it is prerequisite for ETH to have the team perform at a top 4 contention level.
It wasn’t even The Athletic’s tweets – and a clearly distorted summary of what the article, which was very noncommittal either way and frankly not that new or interesting, said.
Can you explain what is specifically distorted?
We lost that chance in December. The writing was on the walls then.
Who cares about the champions league. The important thing is that Ten Hag, and he alone, has single handedly built a team capable of playing the most dynamic and highly entertaining football ever seen
You mean like a mid-season tour of France?
Due in no small part to the fact we keep hiring average or past it managers. If the best we can hope for under a manager is 4th and a Cup final then they aren't the right man for the job. With a proper structure in place building a squad and a style of play isn't even 100% dependent on a single manager anymore. The club can plug different coaches in and out but the process continues, that in itself is less of a reason to keep any manager who is underperforming.
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I hope we are watching Sancho (and Sabitzer ) in Dortmund? Ten Hag has lost the plot already... Every player who has left Manchester United under Ten Hag has gone on to do better in their new clubs.
Well regret if we allow ten Hag chase Rashford away before he himself is relieved if his duties.
Well regret if we allow ten Hag chase Rashford away before he himself is relieved if his duties.
If that was to happen I don't want him to have any say in it. Zero.
Yes they are.
We've done this before mate, that's your own interpretation of events because ironically it suits your narrative. I've asked you for an article or quotes from Ten Hag that prove your interpretation and they weren't forthcoming. Where as even if we ignore the reality that probably 80-90% of our signings since 2022 have a link to Ten Hag in some way. We have direct quotes from him and numerous articles that confirm he wanted control over identifying targets and probably a veto on alternatives. I mean look at the players we've signed, it's obvious.
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Well yes. But now it’s officially undoable. Even if we win every game left and finish 5th
Also means that clause for the manager and players will kick in where their wages are cut 25% - makes Ten Hag cheaper to sack if they decide to
But no manager on the planet has unanimous control. That's why it's a bad argument. He has had as much say and control in transfers as a manager could possibly have. It's the same as with the "it's not his squad" thing. OK, it's not his first XI but no manager has "their" first XI in that sense so it's a moot point.
I mean they're not. They even caveat it's the play "for now". There was nothing clickbait about it.
We've done this before? Are you referring to the time I suggested you research about the veto system and you didn't bother doing so?
Ten Hag has a veto. DoF had a veto. Ten hag wanted a say in strategy. If you agree with this much (you should given its very widely reported), then you should be able to understand how Ten hag did not have sole control, and he never said that it was only him controlling it.
He had an element of control with that system, yes. I think where you've fallen over is insinuating an element of control equals complete and unanimous control.
Us landing on players who were affiliated with him points to the structural failing (non existent DoF and scouting pedigree being communicated on the shortlist).
Bienvenue à Nice.
Maybe. Again we’ll see.
I just think you’re deluded in your expectations this early on into a rebuild. I’m not saying long term that should be our aspiration but even the next 2 years back to back CL qualification would be great progress.