He was his biggest advocate within the club. I don't see how the opinions of us on the Caf are relevant to that.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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Cant believe people think he will get another season.
Arnold - top of the tree - gone
Murtough - next in line - gone
Ten Hag - next in line - pending
Coaches - Gone with ten hag
Players - Next in line - pending
New set up, top to bottom.
Arnold - top of the tree - gone
Murtough - next in line - gone
Ten Hag - next in line - pending
Coaches - Gone with ten hag
Players - Next in line - pending
New set up, top to bottom.
Yes I think you may be correct.
It's pretty clear that they're sorting out all the structure around the manager and then they'll bring in their own guy who will work within it. The manager will go but he'll be the last to go.
People keep going back to 5 years ago but for me it was his last Ajax CL campaign before joining us that was impressive (won all 6 group games) and closed out the league under heavy pressure from the second placed side while being confirmed to be joining United.
Ajax 4 Sporting 2
Amorim is manager of Sporting
Sporting 1 Ajax 5
Ajax 4 Dortmund 0
Marco Rose manager of Dortmund
Dortmund at home have a player sent off, Ajax win 3-1.
Ajax beat Besiktas 2-0 home and win away 2-1. Home game 71% possession, Ajax have 22 shots 7 on target, Besiktas 4 shots 0 on target.
Ajax 4 Sporting 2
Amorim is manager of Sporting
Sporting 1 Ajax 5
Ajax 4 Dortmund 0
Marco Rose manager of Dortmund
Dortmund at home have a player sent off, Ajax win 3-1.
Ajax beat Besiktas 2-0 home and win away 2-1. Home game 71% possession, Ajax have 22 shots 7 on target, Besiktas 4 shots 0 on target.
Yeah, I remember reading and hearing all about the LVG extra emails, individualised programmes and extra football homework he expected them to do. Not a bit of wonder they played and looked like zombies on the pitch, it must have sucked the joy out of the game for them.
I do think what you say about ETH not bridging that knowledge gap is probably correct. Maybe he needs/expects his players to just get it and he can't coach the players in this regard or he's simply not willing to suffer those who just aren't willing to learn.
I suppose, the question at the moment is, does he have enough credit in the bank with those at the club to be allowed to continue and address those positions that are glaring weaknesses within the team with players who can do it. Or do they get rid and bring in someone who maybe has a more simplistic style that will reap more instant rewards like Spurs and Villa.
For me it should all depend on whichever approach is better in terms of achieving long term stability and sustainable challenges for trophies over a number of years is.
I'm 50/50 on it. I think there is a possibility that with certain positions addressed he can be a success.
Agree, unless the new top brass is truly enamored with ETH for some reason, he will be gone. For sure feels like Ineos wants a clean slate for the rebuild.
Pete Hall saying he's not really under pressure.
Wondering if we would have fared better if we kept with the initial (albeit shortlived) trajectory of Rangnick in his intended operations/consultancy role, along with a manager hired on his recommendation.
I can't help but feel we fecked it by giving Ten Hag full control.
I can't help but feel we fecked it by giving Ten Hag full control.
They (Jim) are just keeping him motivated rather than doing a Bayern
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Insane stat. It's obviously a combination of many things, but it's crazy how reliant we are on teenagers.
Feels like it.
Because we bought poor players at inflated prices. And something seriously wrong with our training regimen too which causes so many injuries.
As impressive as it is, I do think the situation has been forced on us on account of injuries and our signings being mostly shite. Garnacho has pretty much been a regular fixture because of Rashford/Antony being awful and Sancho being a waste of space. Mainoo's breakthrough was fast forwarded on account of Casemiro rapidly declining and struggling to stay fit, Mount being injured and Amrabat being pants. And the likes of Kambwala likely wouldn't have featured much at all if it weren't for our entire backline being composed of sicknotes.
I actually love this stat. Our club has always been built on youth and this just feels nice. It might not be right because you want more senior players to step up but it’s just nice reading this and knowing we have some real top youngsters coming through
I think Garnacho and Mainoo were in line for a fair number of minutes anyway, but certainly not as many as they've been given.
Garnacho was probably expected to be a rotation option for Rashford and Antony, and has ended up being our main attacker. Similarly, Mainoo was probably seen as cover for Casemiro, along with Amrabat, and has become our best midfielder.
Kambwala, Forson and anyone else I've forgotten about probably weren't in the plans at all, and may have at best seen a few token minutes.
In a previous job, my Managing Director was awful. There was a huge turnover of managers/assistant directors above me and those in the "doing roles" were routinely blamed for the organisations failings even though we were only following the strategy from the top.
The MD thought the solution to this was give those us in said doing roles more money as we would be more motivated. That didn't work either.
He then sacked 50% of those (including me) lower entry level staff because of poor company performance. He hired a load of new people, in some cases paying them 5-10k more a year. The company still struggled.
The MD then left the organisation. A new man was appointed as MD who then reappointed a load of the old Assistant Directors that had previously been sacked. Big positive changes followed.
What happened next? Individual department managers that had previously struggled to cope with workload were doing better because there was a clearer strategy/culture from those above them and their teams started to perform better than competitors from elsewhere in the industry. The overall company is now thriving.
Not sure where I'm going with this comparison to United. Maybe, like my old work, we need to explore whats gone wrong at the top before we start making huge changes to those on the pitch and the dugout.
Decide if its the rubbish strategy (or lack of) from above that's the problem and that's making Ten Hag's job harder or whether the issues are from Ten Hag himself and the players being rubbish.
The MD thought the solution to this was give those us in said doing roles more money as we would be more motivated. That didn't work either.
He then sacked 50% of those (including me) lower entry level staff because of poor company performance. He hired a load of new people, in some cases paying them 5-10k more a year. The company still struggled.
The MD then left the organisation. A new man was appointed as MD who then reappointed a load of the old Assistant Directors that had previously been sacked. Big positive changes followed.
What happened next? Individual department managers that had previously struggled to cope with workload were doing better because there was a clearer strategy/culture from those above them and their teams started to perform better than competitors from elsewhere in the industry. The overall company is now thriving.
Not sure where I'm going with this comparison to United. Maybe, like my old work, we need to explore whats gone wrong at the top before we start making huge changes to those on the pitch and the dugout.
Decide if its the rubbish strategy (or lack of) from above that's the problem and that's making Ten Hag's job harder or whether the issues are from Ten Hag himself and the players being rubbish.
It's definitely a mix of really crappy squad building, lots of injuries and some very talented youngsters coming through. The concern is that we run them into the ground early, because we rely so heavily on them. (Garnacho and Mainoo specifically).
I don't think this applies to Ten Hag but I agree with your general point about having good leaders with clear structure improving an organization's performance.
I think our scouting system for instance is fine - they flagged guys like Nunez, Haaland, Bellingham before people knew who they even were. They seem to have recommended against the Antony signing. The FdJ / Casemiro pursuit is clearly not a scouting failure either. The academy again are in particularly good shape with the conveyor belt of talent coming into the first team and seemingly bailing us out (Rashford, Greenwood and Mainoo would've been 100m+ signings otherwise).
On the flip side, there's news about the sports science department not being up to par with what's expected of a modern club. Same with data analysis. We hired some rando OxBridge PhD types to provide data input into recruitment but he seems to have disappeared into the ether.
So tl;dr some areas I think are fine already and some need work. Based on current evidence I'd say the manager is an area that needs a change but let's see. I'd really like to see him gone but it's not the worst thing in the world to save some money and give him another year.
Anybody that believes that isn't worth listening to. There's no way they're not considering it at the very least.
Mainoo was absolutely in the plans for this year before getting injured in pre-season and had he not missed the beginning of the season, he might have actually played more (but minutes slightly spread out more). Garnacho looked ready for that step-up, it's not just a question of circumstance. He might have played a little less, but even that is debattable. Kambwala yeah sure.
It's extremely impressive to have those 2 getting so many minutes because they're so good, and it's weird to twist it otherwise.
Nothing is clear with INEOs.
They were possibly gonna replace ETH as soon as they showed interest in the club (but didn’t see a point in doing it end of feb when they could) or maybe haven’t decided on it yet while they sort everything else out.
Regardless, public at least , SJR has said United managers have been undermined by the structures at the club he’s working to fix. If he’s being absolutely honest and transparent about that , then he believes that ETH has equally been hamstrung by our club and by extension that ETH hasn’t had the proper support he wants to give our managers gonna forward.
Every United manager has seen big sums spent on transfers , so I don’t see SJR looking at ETH and thinking “well that guy has had 400 million spent. I’d say he’s moreso looking at how those fees were negotiated and what support there was in place for ETH in identifying alternative targets.
I feel this is why a lot of you don’t get why ETH situation is so unique. It’s not that “he deserves another season” by default , but that there is so many moving parts at United, it’s not clear if a new manager in the summer is better for whatever INEOs are planning.
This is not simply “we need a new manager to come into our well run club to replace an under performing manager”. Like a manager joining city or liverpoo or even arsenal or spurs, will be joining clubs that have done relatively well with their resources and have been able to change managers with no great fuss. United have been a disaster , going for completely different kind of managers who have to shoe horn players into a system while getting mish mash transfer signings of whoever Woodward can overpay for.
Mainoo absolutely would not be ahead of his marquee signing Mason Mount. Garnacho is his Januzaj. ETH trusting youth has always been a myth, he's simply fair about giving chances to the obvious standout ones.
especially so considering our position in the table
I’d argue till my head explodes that he has absolutely ballsed this season up, and how I hate his current approach to football which relies on luck as much as anything.
however part of me is still intrigued to see him there next season to answer the question of how he’d work under proper structure. Though I suspect the answer might be getting sacked mid season instead
however part of me is still intrigued to see him there next season to answer the question of how he’d work under proper structure. Though I suspect the answer might be getting sacked mid season instead
This is the biggest fallacy in you (I assume) Ten Hag fans. Our games are not entertaining because we are attacking well, they are entertaining because we are a shambles on and off the ball.
And as for 'low quality' shots, I swear must be some new thing that the great Ten Hag has figured out. No other good manager wants to concede chances, just ours. He must be ahead of the curve then.
Anthony, I addressed. Martinez, again not available for most of the season. Onana, horrendous start but has got better. Amrabat, was this or nothing because we couldn't sell anyone and won't be here next season anyway, Mount, freakishly not available until a couple of weeks ago Malacia, hasn't played a single minute this season, Hojlund only true successful signing of his that will stay well beyond him. It's not like all of these players have been utter shite and sell them all. Amrabat will be gone, Malacia likely too and the rest will stay as part of a good squad if he's here or not.
It didn't depend on getting De Jong, but it certainly depended on getting someone of a similar profile. Klopp wanted Brandt but got Salah, that's how good football clubs work, we seemed to do the reverse.
Why is Rangnick seen as some sort of oracle with hindsight? His vision for this team was that shite 4-2-2-2 that we had to endure and says he suggested some players that turned out good - cool. Ole wanted to sign Haaland and Bellingham, it's all on the footballing structure to make those decisions with a coach's input of fitting the vision. Ten Hag should be able to express what he needs in terms of a player like Antony and the footballing hierarchy set a value for him and if that's not possible, they have the ability to confident suggest alternatives with similar attributes - we needed a RW at the time, but our inexperienced footballing operations couldn't suggest a better alternative so they just went with it. That won't happen again.
My point here was I think it will just be more of a nuanced discussion I imagine, because these are better footballing people than what we had previously.
We don't know the vision yet, but I very much doubt it's going to be far off a high pressing, quick transition team that wants to dominate the ball high up the pitch. ETH does align with that and whoever we get to replace him will likely need similar profile players unless we do actually get Southgate and we'll be boring as feck.
De Boer did not do what he did in the CL, that's just a false equivalency. He also was a success with Utrecht, in a league as you say Ajax are utterly dominant. It's still a semi-final for fecks sake with Ajax, where are they now?
OK fine, I do, we just disagree on that point. They were also positives for Ole as well.
I don't claim it's rosy, we obviously need improving, but I think with a more stable backline injury wise and some midfield recruitment, it would have a big impact. The bolded part - yeah, because they were fecking Ajax (a side that had Tadic, Ziyech, VDB and Blind who were all deemed not good enough in the prem) and still managed to knock out Real Madrid, Juventus and not for heroics from Moura would have knocked out Spurs.
I think there are obvious question marks about him, I just don't see anyone out there now that would not have similar problems with this group trying to implement their style. So now the responsibility is on the new structure to agree the vision, Ten Hag will have to align with it (he might not anyway), they will sign players for that vision regardless of if Ten Hag stays or goes. We have a season to then integrate that vision, if Ten Hag can't do it, we get a manager who can with a base of players who've come in based on the idea espoused by the new hierarchy.
I don't really see an alternative where the pay off is big enough when you consider Naglesmann is contracted to 2026, so you have to pay Ten Hag and Nagelsmann with the same problem set with the squad make up. Amorim would cost 10M, far more inexperienced and the squad make up is an issue again, same can be said for De Zerbi. Potter and Southgate are shite options. Zidane is the only one I would be interested in sacking him for, but I don't think there's been any indication he's interested and we'd again be back to investing in the squad anyway.
Oh no even geebs has been indoctrinated
Jokes aside, its probably too late to see any results under a proper structure. We most likely won't even have the full team this summer with some still on gardening leave, and it'll take a legendary summer window to see any sort of improvement because he is so reliant on the right players.
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Yes it was posted yesterday a few pages back.
That is the bit that I wonder about if I'm honest. The club structure has been at best outdated and at worst shit, I think we can all agree on that. Everyone the Glazers hired for key positions are/were incompetent and the people they in turn hired also incompetent and they all need sacked. We recruit poorly, the wrong type of players, at the wrong times, without the right profile for the football we want to play, not good enough, not athletic enough, they're invaribly too old and/or we paid too much and they all need sold.
Now all of that is true to some extent or another, yet this circus full of incompetent clowns, has somehow despite getting virtually everything else wrong. Unearthed a gem of a manager who needs time and patience (and presumably another £600-800m) to blossom into a collosus who will lead us to untold glory.
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I mean Varane is definitely not the player he once was, Maguire hasn't exactly been value for money at a World Record fee despite mostly being a solid defender for us. Lindelof is a decent/good if not great defender but reliable enough in his time at the club. Evans is having a very good season despite his age and I've always been a fan. Dalot is arguably having his best season or at least since Xmas. And AWB has been good this season for the most part when fit.
So it's nonsense to suggest these guys are 3rd rate defenders, that's simply just trying to rewrite history to deflect criticism away from Ten Hag.
There is no way this proper structure is going to have such immediate effect anyway. If he stays not that much will change in such short amout of time. Which is why the whole thing is pointless. You'd need to give him 2-3 years, but who in their right mind would do that with these performances that we're putting week in week out?
'Working under a proper structure' is just such a meaningless phrase.
How does this proper structure affect training sessions? Affect player fitness and conditioning? Affect tactical work and game management? It doesn't.
All a "proper structure" means is that there's better long term planning around recruitment and academy prospects, and that the coach is held accountable for their coaching methods and philosophy.
How does this proper structure affect training sessions? Affect player fitness and conditioning? Affect tactical work and game management? It doesn't.
All a "proper structure" means is that there's better long term planning around recruitment and academy prospects, and that the coach is held accountable for their coaching methods and philosophy.
The standards come from the top of the club. It's not meaningless at all, you're just failing to grasp it.
It's meaningful as a long term thing. Not in the context that it is being used.
Again, I don't agree. It can quite easily have a short-term impact in that context too.
Its quite clear with EtH's style it requires a certain type of player. Not just comfortable on the ball but more importantly physically capable of playing his style. We simply do not have a lot of those players capable of playing a high energy high technical style as seen by the crazy amount of injuries we have picked up. Ineos need to decide whether they think they can get in the right players to implement his style in the prem or if not and they want to commit to the likes of Rashford etc then find a manager whose more suitable to those players. For me, all this season has shown me is that you are going to struggle to implement a high press/highly technical style at United when you have to rely on Rashford, Maguire, Lindelof, Varane, Shaw, AWB, Casemiro, Mctominay etc.
There doesn't seem to be anything different in that article than before or did I miss something?