Which team will ever have their best players available? Does he means one of our WC players were out so he can chose his beat team? I just want to laugh at ETH comments. Overrated manager.talking nonsense. Is Rashford your best player? How is he doing this season?
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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My only issue with De Zerbi is the fact they got smacked 6-1 away at Villa,also the more alarming 4-0 defeat at Luton as well. His team playing out from the back is probably the best in league.
I'm not sure if Frank or O Neil is capable of making that step up to a supposed top 6 club. So what gives you confidence we could lure Emery away from the Villa project if they hold on for 4th
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Ahh the defiant flickers of a dying and clueless candle. Me gusta.
Yeah sounds very desperate indeed, telling that his media mouthpiece Mullock is saying INEOS aren't telling me what's going on.
Might be something to do with training Erik
The injuries are an issue, yes. But as a manager, you also have a responsability for that. And it is in now way an excuse for our horrible football this season
Teams miss players all the time, no excuse for playing bad football, providing bad tactics, bad substitution, making bad player transfer.
Yeah he will use it as an excuse to defend himself
Some 2023 stat. It was our 4th highest defeat in our entire history in a calender year. The reason? Injury to mason and rashford it seems. We need full squads fit and fired to beat fulham, bournamouth at home. Oh that and to score more goals than luton.
I think ETH could be a really good manager, but to do so he needs a squad of players that fits his strategies and tactics. I don’t think he is the best at being able to recognise the characteristics of a squad and quickly develop strategies and tactics for that squad that can make them successful. I think he is the type of coach who likes to stick to his approach and is not one to tinker too much or too soon.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that is what we need right now given our squad. I think our organisation hasn't had a clear objective of what style or philosophy of football we want to play (it’s been more commercial success focused), and therefore hasn’t been working towards that philosophy or style of play. This has resulted in a disjointed squad that doesn’t fit. And I don’t think that it’s going to be a quick fix as we fist have to establish what that overall philosophy is, and then is going to take multiple windows to build it.
That’s why I believe that ETH need to be replaced. We need someone who is more reactive. Better at assessing what we have and making changes to the strategy and tactics to suit that squad, all while we build towards the ideal philosophy we have chosen.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that is what we need right now given our squad. I think our organisation hasn't had a clear objective of what style or philosophy of football we want to play (it’s been more commercial success focused), and therefore hasn’t been working towards that philosophy or style of play. This has resulted in a disjointed squad that doesn’t fit. And I don’t think that it’s going to be a quick fix as we fist have to establish what that overall philosophy is, and then is going to take multiple windows to build it.
That’s why I believe that ETH need to be replaced. We need someone who is more reactive. Better at assessing what we have and making changes to the strategy and tactics to suit that squad, all while we build towards the ideal philosophy we have chosen.
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Without wanting to speak for Fortuna, I presume it was the same as it was for many (most?) of us. An entire season of incompetence.
Excuses could be made for the first few months of the season. There were very worrying signs, but there were also mitigating circumstances. We did have a truly ridiculous injury list all over the field then, we had a keeper who had a very rough start which was costing us, and we were playing a new style and formation that might either improve or the manager might modify.
The longer things continued, the worse it became for ETH. This last couple of months in particular. We've generally been playing one game a week so there's been both more rest and more chances for ETH to train the players in what he wants, and we've regularly been able to field 8 or 9 of our strongest 11 (albeit leftback and one of the centreback spots have consistently been way down the pecking order).
Here's my own post from January:
That was the turning point for a lot of people. There was a brief period of small improvement (even then we played terribly in some of the games we won), but since then we've hit new lows. Dreadful performances where teams with much thinner squads and more injuries are dominating us, continuing to lean into this ridiculously open midfield, our control of games is the worst it's been in PL history, our attack shows no signs whatsoever of any kind of combinations or interplay, our goal difference is literally in the negative, and we're actually quite lucky to be as high on the table as we are.
All this at a time where ETH had more time on the training field with the players than at any other time in his two years here. It is an incredibly bad sign and it's extremely difficult to see him coming back from this.
I think that and @bushyzor are making fair comment on the situation. I really don't know who could replace him.
The 7-0 shocked me tbh and showed me how behind we are.
Part of it is we're playing whack a mole where we address one failing to see another crop up and hit us.
Is he really going to walk the plank and forgo 10mill compensation, nah don't think so.
If you take the Chelsea performance from yesterday for example, they played forward very quickly and would have put Cheaty away if they could hit a barn door.
Us, we don‘t have a defense and half a midfield.
I think he knows he's gone. He is in full excuse mode. The Injuries do excuse him somewhat but not enough IMO. Not been good enough either way.
I suspect the players know he is gone aswell, they will be up for the cup but there going to be on the beach for the league games aren't they?
I suspect the players know he is gone aswell, they will be up for the cup but there going to be on the beach for the league games aren't they?
He’s right about injuries but the football has simply been too bad to put it solely on that.
I guess we’re affording him the opportunity to win a cup where his team has made the semis. Like LvG, hope he wins it and we move to better things.
I guess we’re affording him the opportunity to win a cup where his team has made the semis. Like LvG, hope he wins it and we move to better things.
The next three games are against a Championship team and the worst of the worst in the Premier League. He could at least use this week to make us look like a proper team for a change.
Yes Chelsea did play surprisingly well yesterday against City. Their midfield and defence look like the envy of the world if it get compared to ours. If they had a good striker, they would've scored 3 goals yesterday. They are looking like a team slowly improving toward the end of the season, surely they will play better next season and I can not say the same to our team.
Next season we shouldn't expect too much from our team, would be a good idea to let more players from our academy to play more.
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The conclusion is a bit strange, Ole didn't pay the price of his love for United. He paid the price for his limitations as a manager/head coach. Now I do think that he has a point about the initial statement.
For me, Ole season 2 was our best season post SAF.
It may have been but his fourth season was one of the worst and we were steadily getting worse. Also the best season post SAF isn't really a good standard.
Spot on I think. Hopefully we can get the cup everyone can just move on from it all. I'm still amazed at how an upward trajectory was reversed so drastically.
I was unaware of his previous posts. Having asked him to explain his view he then did and even showed me where his view had changed and how. That’s a far more fruitful experience for all involved as I now understand him far better.
Why is he a loser?
Im not sure I’ve seen anyone saying how good he is and “waffling” about it. Can you show me where I have done this?
I did not. It came across as just a poor reactionary post that added nothing of value. Now having asked about it I understand why a fellow fan feels how they do. I even agree with him on some points if you care to look at the subsequent conversation.
Im clearly not dumb or winding up. If we’re going to be critical of Ten Hag which we absolutely should be, then I’d like to understand why people feel the way they do.
If we’re just going to call him names we may aswell look on X.
I think you’ll find they have added the context behind why he felt that way, where I agree with the poster RE:Newcastle and where we have slight disagreements RE:West Ham.
As a result of posting I know exactly why the poster feels how they do, agree with them on some points and can see their true intentions and feelings in a more friendly and respectful environment. A win for all.
Fortuna has very kindly shown me an insight into the key moments that led them to feeling their obvious frustration and dislike of Ten Hag as manager.
Thank you also for sharing your sort of turning point in the season too. It’s really interesting I think how that January period is analysed because especially during that period we were on a great winning run.
If you don’t mind, what were the performances from the bit in bold you are referring to?
With regards to our attack since the new year we’ve scored 37 goals in 16 games 2.315 goals per game which I believe correlates to the more open style of play. It looks like Ten Hag is prioritising attack more since January and we’re getting more goals as a result. Unfortunately we don’t have the players in the defensive unit to enable this team to sustain attacks by winning the ball back before it reaches our box.
I agree it will be incredibly difficult to come back from this. But I do think with a few key additions (that can remain fit) we’ll see a big improvement.
It was posted to highlight more about the Mullock line, maybe there could be something in it and he is more than likely off in the summer. If I were INEOS there’s no way I’d be giving him assurances after what I see week in, week out.
I’m more leaning towards him going now that all the pieces of the puzzle are slowly but surely starting to fall in line.
I’m more leaning towards him going now that all the pieces of the puzzle are slowly but surely starting to fall in line.
We have been dreadful since last February, and were only good sporadically before then.
Only an idiot believes unsubstantiated bollocks like this.
Or his running players into the ground by never rotating.
I mean we’ve definitely rotated this season
His excuse about injuries kind of highlights how poorly he’s managing the side. Not so much the injuries (which he must be held to some account) but the fact he’s only once had his best side but for the remaining games he’s not adjusted the playing side to match who is available. He’s mentioned in the past that we can’t play the Ajax way so he’s set us up differently, but when that was us clearly never going to work - why not change it again. His stubborn strain to stick with this god awful process is producing the worst football in the league and destroying us every game. He injuries excuse are as lame as his tactics. Any other decent manager would change us around based on players available - we have plenty of training time these days. Useless United manager - the worst.
Hah!I mean we’ve definitely rotated this season
This may be controversial but i think
he is a manager who can't see the value of a player's footballing qualities & seems to over rate players Mental Abilities & possibly even Work Rate.
This is why he has predominantly bought players he had previously coached and judged them good enough for this club by their 'fighting spirit' than the actual quality of Football that they can play.
Onana, Mount, Antony, Amrabat, Weghorst, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia, Hojlund have all different qualities of footballing ability - some good & some bad - but all seem like they have a great mentality, good personality and most of them can bust a gut for a team if they had the physical capacity to do so (casemiro & Eriksen last season vs this season).
I think he overrates things like intensity, work rate and mentality rather than the actual technical abilities of a footballer.
As an ex-Ajax manager everyone was wondering why we didnt sign players like Kudus or even Edson Alvarez when they were right beneath our feet but i believe that he decided that their mentality wasn't good enough.
I actually think this could be the reason why our whole squad seems to be carrying so many injuries this season because they are possibly being over trained with consistently high intensity training.
I can kind of see it in the players. Bruno looks exhausted, Rashford doesn't run even when the ball is right in front of him. No one really seems happy and calm except our younger players who have just broken through in their first or 2nd seasons like Mainoo & Garnacho (Garnacho i can see some tiredness in him post 60mins & same with Hojlund).
People will then particularly ask about Rashford who has clearly shown no work rate all season (on the pitch) & how that is possible for a manager to pick him consistently when he cares so much about the right mentality & work rate of a player. I think theirs two sides to this problem. Seeing what a player does on a footballing pitch is different to seeing what a player does while in training (i think Ten Hag started off as an assisant manager/trainer & has made comments like Sancho's training isn't good enough whilst also making bad substitutions leading to losses because he doesn't analyse players on the pitch very well).
However, more importantly i think even though Rashford has shown no work rate in matches, Ten Hag hasn't seen that Rashford's technical ability has gone down this season aswell.
Ten Hag doesn't see that Bruno's & Rashford's technical quality has gone down a level or two because he is a manager who really doesn't calculate the technical ability of a player very well (as we can see by his signings) & therefore still see's Rashford & Bruno as his most important technical players for what they have delivered when on form, especially from last season.
This is why he always starts Rashford & Bruno - because he hasn't seen that they have shown less technical ability this season (who knows, maybe from overtraining aswell?).
This is why i think he doesn't drop Rashford or Bruno when the fanbase has been asking for it for ages or for simple changes like playing Mount for Bruno once in a while, play Garnacho on the left whilst dropping Rashford & giving Amad a chance on the right (maybe a player with high technical ability that Ten Hag can't see because he is focusing on the right mentality instead).
he is a manager who can't see the value of a player's footballing qualities & seems to over rate players Mental Abilities & possibly even Work Rate.
This is why he has predominantly bought players he had previously coached and judged them good enough for this club by their 'fighting spirit' than the actual quality of Football that they can play.
Onana, Mount, Antony, Amrabat, Weghorst, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia, Hojlund have all different qualities of footballing ability - some good & some bad - but all seem like they have a great mentality, good personality and most of them can bust a gut for a team if they had the physical capacity to do so (casemiro & Eriksen last season vs this season).
I think he overrates things like intensity, work rate and mentality rather than the actual technical abilities of a footballer.
As an ex-Ajax manager everyone was wondering why we didnt sign players like Kudus or even Edson Alvarez when they were right beneath our feet but i believe that he decided that their mentality wasn't good enough.
I actually think this could be the reason why our whole squad seems to be carrying so many injuries this season because they are possibly being over trained with consistently high intensity training.
I can kind of see it in the players. Bruno looks exhausted, Rashford doesn't run even when the ball is right in front of him. No one really seems happy and calm except our younger players who have just broken through in their first or 2nd seasons like Mainoo & Garnacho (Garnacho i can see some tiredness in him post 60mins & same with Hojlund).
People will then particularly ask about Rashford who has clearly shown no work rate all season (on the pitch) & how that is possible for a manager to pick him consistently when he cares so much about the right mentality & work rate of a player. I think theirs two sides to this problem. Seeing what a player does on a footballing pitch is different to seeing what a player does while in training (i think Ten Hag started off as an assisant manager/trainer & has made comments like Sancho's training isn't good enough whilst also making bad substitutions leading to losses because he doesn't analyse players on the pitch very well).
However, more importantly i think even though Rashford has shown no work rate in matches, Ten Hag hasn't seen that Rashford's technical ability has gone down this season aswell.
Ten Hag doesn't see that Bruno's & Rashford's technical quality has gone down a level or two because he is a manager who really doesn't calculate the technical ability of a player very well (as we can see by his signings) & therefore still see's Rashford & Bruno as his most important technical players for what they have delivered when on form, especially from last season.
This is why he always starts Rashford & Bruno - because he hasn't seen that they have shown less technical ability this season (who knows, maybe from overtraining aswell?).
This is why i think he doesn't drop Rashford or Bruno when the fanbase has been asking for it for ages or for simple changes like playing Mount for Bruno once in a while, play Garnacho on the left whilst dropping Rashford & giving Amad a chance on the right (maybe a player with high technical ability that Ten Hag can't see because he is focusing on the right mentality instead).
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Funny how the narrative around that has switched since last year when it was universally loved here because ‘these fecking players’ finally knew their place and knew they had to play every game without slacking off. We were playing our best team in games that did not need it at all.
Ajax fans did tell/warn us about this...
We did get better results in January/February and there were a couple of games in there where we looked a bit better, but even during that period there were games that we played really poorly and got a fairly lucky result. So it was an improvement on what we'd had before, but not a big one. At that point we really needed to continue that slow but steady improvement, but instead the exact opposite happened.
The Brentford match is the obvious one in regards to the bolded bit. We only had Casemiro, Martinez and Shaw out from our strongest 11 that day, and the first two were on the bench after returning from injury. Indeed we had one of our strongest squads of the season available for that one, with the likes of Maguire, Antony, Mount, Eriksen and Amrabat all also on the bench while McTominay, Lindelof and AWB started. It was really only Shaw, Malacia and Martial who were completely unavailable. Whereas from memory Brentford had what would have been their entire first choice defensive line and one of their main midfielders all out. That didn't stop them being by far the better team and we got incredibly lucky to get out of the match with a draw.
The only thing that really gives me any pause is the Wolves and West Ham games. Wolves was the only match all season we had our strongest 11 playing and the first hour was arguably the best we've played all season, so hopefully the late collapse that almost cost us the game was just tiredness from the players who hadn't played much. And against West Ham we again had almost our strongest team out there (Varane was on the bench) and while the 3-0 win definitely flattered us we did perform better than in most games. But if you are entirely reliant on keeping your entire starting 11 fit to actually play well, then that's a huge issue. Having two or three of your preferred line-up out doesn't excuse just how bad we do get.
Problem for him is it's far too late for excuses in the sense that airing that out now makes him sound like he can neither cope, but most importantly of all, adjust. The latter being damning and a red flag.
Erik's ego looks like it would be the downfall of him even if this vaunted system of his was initially successful; the PL forces adaption and change, which even Pep and Klopp have accepted and adjusted to no matter what their initial conceptualisation of the game was when first setting foot on the proverbial PL landscape.
What ten Hag is showing, unwittingly by not changing anything is that this league would swallow him up one way or another because those that cannot stay ahead of the curve get consumed by it regardless.
Being stubborn to a fault is not something to celebrate; which truly elite managers have shown an inability to adapt or modify whilst remaining current and relevant? It's an either, or - if you cannot change, you may have a time in the sun, but then you are cooked; there absolutely nothing unheralded or unexpected about how we play or what we try to do and even taken to its zenith, there are a plethora of counters and contingencies to tackle it, so this nirvana, where everything just clicks at some point down the road is bordering on fantasy because the league simply does not permit that of any one system. There's a bottom line here that is clear: if Pep, with all those resources and the best squad plus knowledge of the league constantly keeps his finger on the pulse and acts accordingly, there is no measure by which every other coach doesn’t have to do the same.
It's fundamental knowledge and tactical acumen that separates and profiles each manager and if ten Hag is as inflexible he seems, his reckoning would always happen sooner rather than later.
Erik's ego looks like it would be the downfall of him even if this vaunted system of his was initially successful; the PL forces adaption and change, which even Pep and Klopp have accepted and adjusted to no matter what their initial conceptualisation of the game was when first setting foot on the proverbial PL landscape.
What ten Hag is showing, unwittingly by not changing anything is that this league would swallow him up one way or another because those that cannot stay ahead of the curve get consumed by it regardless.
Being stubborn to a fault is not something to celebrate; which truly elite managers have shown an inability to adapt or modify whilst remaining current and relevant? It's an either, or - if you cannot change, you may have a time in the sun, but then you are cooked; there absolutely nothing unheralded or unexpected about how we play or what we try to do and even taken to its zenith, there are a plethora of counters and contingencies to tackle it, so this nirvana, where everything just clicks at some point down the road is bordering on fantasy because the league simply does not permit that of any one system. There's a bottom line here that is clear: if Pep, with all those resources and the best squad plus knowledge of the league constantly keeps his finger on the pulse and acts accordingly, there is no measure by which every other coach doesn’t have to do the same.
It's fundamental knowledge and tactical acumen that separates and profiles each manager and if ten Hag is as inflexible he seems, his reckoning would always happen sooner rather than later.
I’m not sure how much the inconsistency though is down to just our quality not quite being there.
The only truly consistent performers in the league are Arsenal, City and Liverpool and all other sides have these drops and blips as part of a natural season.
I think Brentford perfectly highlights the core issue with our squad, we completely lack the physical profiles to compete in those kind of games and Brentford perfectly exposed that as they are arguably the most physically gifted side in the league. Their squad is primarily an athletic one in my eyes. I agree they were also affected badly by injury at that time so I can completely understand the frustration of not being able to get that game over the line. It’s not good enough.
I think if we view this team as one in transition (I think you’ll agree on that) then is it understandable that we won’t have built the squad level to a point that it can cope with the level of injury we’ve had this season without impacting performance? Is it a good indication that when we’ve had access to what should be the core group (particularly in the defensive line) that it’s been better?
And that for me is one of the reasons why I’m not quite at the hit the ejector seat button stage, but the button is on my mind.
The opinion was that his disciplinary measures haven't been successful. The Sancho thing you keep bringing up is a red herring, I'm not suggesting that there will never be disciplinary issues, I'm saying he's handled them very well, and the Sancho thing is a great example. Under previous managers that kind of falling out could (and did) lead to mutiny, whereas under Ten Hag the player has been excised without poisoning the well.
There's no contradiction at all. You've made a distinction where none exists. We're adopting a system that doesn't work yet, as we don't have the personnel to make it work, so it looks like a strange hybrid at the moment. Like I said, we can't stick with the mid block that most of this squad was built for, buy the players for his ideal system, and make the switch overnight. I'm pretty confident that any proactive system we tried to adopt, under any manager, would take time to adopt and would be far from optimal for a while, hence why I'm not up in arms at that being the case now.
We were pretty poor at it in general. Martinez was a light in the darkness, and Shaw adapted well, but the rest of our defenders and DDG were pretty rubbish at it. This season has seen a big improvement in that area, thanks to b personnel (Onana) and even the less suited players have improved due to our persisting with the approach.
Erm, I'm pretty sure thats not true. I can't remember the game but I thought about Feb time he was saying it was the first time he has been able to pick the team he wants (in a pre match interview).
Seems the excuses are coming out.