No, not even his previous. While he had issues with an open midfield he adjusted them and the schemes were different. In fact we Ajax, he has used a number of schemes.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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Rightnr
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I think we'd need to wait until a CL place for 5th is officially out of the question, so right about after the first leg of the CL and EL semis, I think.Villa only need to win one more game and it will be mathematically impossible for us to get top 4. That's when ETH will be fired or at least announced to be at the end of the season.
Let the FA cup final be his last hurrah.
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Cassidy
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Yes because the next manager will have the same issue as all the previous if we don't sort it out as a clubDoes it matter what it is at this point? It has been happening the whole season with absolutely no viable solution in sight by EtH. As I said previously, being unable to address issues in your team is the major downfall of any top manager and this has be recurring issue for multitude of games
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Roy Keane said the same thing, the players dropped off and started doing their own thing.That because it was not a tactical thing, watch the game again, players start doing their own thing is not tactical
Big Ben Foster
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The vast majority of managers are "two year managers". Trying to find the next Fergie isn't realistic.He'd be a 2 year manager. Maybe the new sporting crew want someone a bit more long term. Plus we're never clearing the decks and starting from fresh with the squad in 1 window. I full expect numerous players just not getting the hint and sitting out their contracts, whilst causing issues in the dressing room. So Tuchel would have issues managing such an environment.
crossy1686
career ending
It's happened all season. Whatever it is, is his responsibility to fix and he hasn't.That because it was not a tactical thing, watch the game again, players start doing their own thing is not tactical
Cassidy
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Indeed which he has not been able to get the players to adopt this season (and the ever changing backline didn't help this) Thats the main reason I said he should go, but also why I believe the next manager will have issues if we don't clear out the squadNo, not even his previous. While he had issues with an open midfield he adjusted them and the schemes were different. In fact we Ajax, he has used a number of schemes.
stefan92
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Tuchel (almost) always found solutions to get the best out of his squad, however it looked. Which could make him a perfect choice for a transitional period, when it's clear that the squad doesn't yet look like the board wants it to look and maybe can't play the wanted style yet, but can be evolved in that direction under a manager who isn't dogmatic about his setup.He'd be a 2 year manager. Maybe the new sporting crew want someone a bit more long term. Plus we're never clearing the decks and starting from fresh with the squad in 1 window. I full expect numerous players just not getting the hint and sitting out their contracts, whilst causing issues in the dressing room. So Tuchel would have issues managing such an environment.
Cassidy
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Don't disagree, it also happened in previous seasons (with Ole and Rangnick) multiple times. So are we going to also just let it happen to the next manager too, or are we going to fix the underlying squad issuesIt's happened all season. Whatever it is, is his responsibility to fix and he hasn't.
Cassidy
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Not successful ones, this is a myth, takes about 2 years just to lay the foundations for a team that can go on and win significant trophiesThe vast majority of managers are "two year managers". Trying to find the next Fergie isn't realistic.
CM
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The players obviously have to take some responsibility but those who aren't good enough will be phased out eventually. This isn't just about a one off game though, we've been terrible all season as well as the latter part of last season.I'm firmly in the 'the problems are both players and manager' camp but i mean, it's pretty brain dead and ridiculous if a bunch of players can't realise when to take the sting out of the game or when to speed up the tempo. You don't need a manager to tell you that at 3-0 up against a championship side. It's so basic.
I remember Wenger-one of the premier league all time greats- having problems with the idiocy of some of his later Arsenal teams that were winning games 4-2 or 4-3 or whatever and would collapse in the final few seconds when they had opportunities to take the ball to the corner and waste a bit of time.
The manager has been hellbent on playing a kamikaze style this season which isn't getting the best out of anybody. He doesn't deserve anymore benefit of the doubt than he's already received, the club have been far too patient with him already.
Big Ben Foster
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Real, Barca, Bayern, and Chelsea have all thrived over the years with short-term managers, just to name a few of the clubs that have had the most success over the last 20 years.Not successful ones, this is a myth, takes about 2 years just to lay the foundations for a team that can go on and win significant trophies
crossy1686
career ending
We should get rid of the manager who isn't doing his job to the required level and we should let the new recruitment team handle the squad building.Don't disagree, it also happened in previous seasons (with Ole and Rangnick) multiple times. So are we going to also just let it happen to the next manager too, or are we going to fix the underlying squad issues
stefan92
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A smart club replaces managers with roughly similar managers which drastically reduces the lead-up time, as you can built on existing foundations and tweak those to work (again).Not successful ones, this is a myth, takes about 2 years just to lay the foundations for a team that can go on and win significant trophies
Of course there then also is the United approach of tearing everything half decent down and start at Ground Zero, but that shouldn't be what you aspire to do anymore.
Cassidy
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No point mentioning Bayern, because its very hard for them not to have success like PSG.Real, Barca, Bayern, and Chelsea have all thrived over the years with short-term managers, just to name a few of the clubs that have had the most success over the last 20 years.
Real had Zidane for about 5 years with a gap in between because he decided to leave (and they went to shit and begged him to come back), after that they have had Ancelotti since and generally do not look to change managers when the manager is successful.
Barcelona have not really managed to have a successful manager since Pep, Luis Enrique was successful but the fans didn't like his football and that's why he went.
Chelsea is a shit show of a club, but agree there.
Generally successful clubs don't sack successful managers, agree we don't get Fergies who stay 20 years but we also don't have some 2 year cycle.
Pep and Klopp lasted more than 2 years for a reason.
Rake
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Maybe, and I agree that some players have to go. That being said, what you indirectly imply is that no manager could improve things because the issue is entirely internal, which I can't agree with.Yes because the next manager will have the same issue as all the previous if we don't sort it out as a club
Yes, things at the management level should change and improve, but this does not necessarily mean EtH is a vital part in this process or has the ability to operate under the new management.
Cassidy
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Not really the point I was making.A smart club replaces managers with roughly similar managers which drastically reduces the lead-up time, as you can built on existing foundations and tweak those to work (again).
Of course there then also is the United approach of tearing everything half decent down and start at Ground Zero, but that shouldn't be what you aspire to do anymore.
Smart clubs tend not to replace their successful manager after 2 years anyway
Your conclusion is irrefutable but I need to point out that our biggest issue isn't the defensive line. It's the pressing scheme from our front 4, they stay high, don't seem to follow a clock, don't play zonal or man marking, press one player at a time, they generally play narrow and strictly follow a flat 4 or a 3-1 positioning. And it's the case whoever is on the field, either the players have tactical meetings without the manager and somehow agreed on a consistent approach or it comes from the coaches.I honestly also don't believe that this big midfield gap is what he wants, but that the defenders should play higher up to close it. Yet they don't, and it's understandable looking at the defenders United have, they are not really suited for that.
So I think he either accepts that the team can't play as he wants and just ignores the problem, or he doesn't accept it and is incredible weak as their manager because that would mean that (at least part of) the team doesn't do what he wants.
But in the end I guess it doesn't matter. If this is what he wants, he deserves to be sacked. If he accepts the holes in this formation despite actually not wanting to have them, he deservers to be sacked. And if the team isn't following him, well you guessed it, he also deserves to be sacked.
It just occurred to me but a guess is that he has an hybrid in mind with a back 6 that follows containment rules and a front 4 that is supposed to prevent the opposition from playing from the back and then backcheck, that kind of things do exist in Hockey.
Cassidy
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No, I am not implying that, so no point attempting to deduce that.Maybe, and I agree that some players have to go. That being said, what you indirectly imply is that no manager could improve things because the issue is entirely internal, which I can't agree with.
Yes, things at the management level should change and improve, but this does not necessarily mean EtH is a vital part in this process or has the ability to operate under the new management.
What I am saying is whilst ETH should go we need to actually truly evolve the squad and stop pretending to do so with loan deals and stop gap signings.
MadDogg
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I wouldn't hold your breath. I expect it'll be more of an LVG situation where it's announced after the final.Villa only need to win one more game and it will be mathematically impossible for us to get top 4. That's when ETH will be fired or at least announced to be at the end of the season.
Let the FA cup final be his last hurrah.
Cassidy
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Been reported that the players are finding it hard to work out the pressing scheme and follow the instructions, and its been said also recently by previous manager (Ole) that some players don't actually follow instructions when they get on the pitch.Your conclusion is irrefutable but I need to point out that our biggest issue isn't the defensive line. It's the pressing scheme from our front 4, they stay high, don't seem to follow a clock, don't play zonal or man marking, press one player at a time, they generally play narrow and strictly follow a flat 4 or a 3-1 positioning. And it's the case whoever is on the field, either the players have tactical meetings without the manager and somehow agreed on a consistent approach or it comes from the coaches.
It just occurred to me but a guess is that he has an hybrid in mind with a back 6 that follows containment rules and a front 4 that is supposed to prevent the opposition from playing from the back and then backcheck, that kind of things do exist in Hockey.
Not that surprising because Rangnick immediately abandoned pressing after 2 games and Ole even did so too.
Like I said ETH needs to go but this club isn't going to start playing some modern playing style with these players
Chesterlestreet
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Of course.Yes because the next manager will have the same issue as all the previous if we don't sort it out as a club
But we now have at least something like a half-plausible hope that something might actually change (because of INEOS).
If nothing changes, we might as well stick with ETH.
Or - I dunno - randomly replace him (doesn't really matter).
Point is:
If something actually does change (a structural shift, let's say - more focus on the long-term, less power to the "manager"), the question becomes: why should we stick with ETH?
Cassidy
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The question isn't why should we stick with ETH (I havne't said we should) I'm simply pointing out that the problem extends beyond the managerOf course.
But we now have at least something like a half-plausible hope that something might actually change (because of INEOS).
If nothing changes, we might as well stick with ETH.
Or - I dunno - randomly replace him (doesn't really matter).
Point is:
If something actually does change (a structural shift, let's say - more focus on the long-term, less power to the "manager"), the question becomes: why should we stick with ETH?
Chesterlestreet
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That's obvious.The question isn't why should we stick with ETH (I havne't said we should) I'm simply pointing out that the problem extends beyond the manager
Our only hope is that something will change with the arrival of INEOS.
I have been saying for more than a decade now that the manager isn't the problem, so I certainly don't disagree with you there.
Rangnick abandoned it because his gegenpress can't be implemented in the middle of the season without adapted conditioning, lots of time and without serious teething pains, teams that do it are generally cooked without serious rotation even when they planned an entire offseason around it.Been reported that the players are finding it hard to work out the pressing scheme and follow the instructions, and its been said also recently by previous manager (Ole) that some players don't actually follow instructions when they get on the pitch.
Not that surprising because Rangnick immediately abandoned pressing after 2 games and Ole even did so too.
Like I said ETH needs to go but this club isn't going to start playing some modern playing style with these players
And I believe that these reports are BS, the players aren't following instructions but they do the same things game after game including substitutes. If it's coincidental then it's the strangest coincidence I can think about.
Cassidy
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He said the squad wasn't capable and we needed open heart surgery, he made no secret of it.Rangnick abandoned it because his gegenpress can't be implemented in the middle of the season without adapted conditioning and without serious teething pains, teams that do it are generally cooked without serious rotation even when they planned an entire offseason around it.
And I believe that these reports are BS, the players aren't following instructions but they do the same things game after game including substitutes. If it's coincidental then it's the strangest coincidence I can think about.
This season the players have been complaining about the intensity of training, sound familiar?
stefan92
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The squad wasn't capable because it wasn't trained to do it, they didn't have the necessary fitness level and he decided against running the players into the ground (which would have happened if he had insisted on playing that way).He said the squad wasn't capable and we needed open heart sugery
The open heart surgery statement is way overblown and quoted a bit out of context - he mentioned it would happen due to the amount of ending contracts, so that there was a big need for new players no matter what.
croadyman
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That's why this appointment could work out,another option is appointing the loser out of Postecoglou and Emery for Champions LeagueTuchel (almost) always found solutions to get the best out of his squad, however it looked. Which could make him a perfect choice for a transitional period, when it's clear that the squad doesn't yet look like the board wants it to look and maybe can't play the wanted style yet, but can be evolved in that direction under a manager who isn't dogmatic about his setup.
Ace of Spades
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That is nonsense. The idea that these players are so stupid that they can't follow instructions is bs. A lot of them have played and thrived under different managers, and even his own ex-players are looking shit, who magically followed his instructions at Ajax somehow.Been reported that the players are finding it hard to work out the pressing scheme and follow the instructions, and its been said also recently by previous manager (Ole) that some players don't actually follow instructions when they get on the pitch.
Not that surprising because Rangnick immediately abandoned pressing after 2 games and Ole even did so too.
Like I said ETH needs to go but this club isn't going to start playing some modern playing style with these players
Also, a lot of these players are not the same as under those previous managers, the player excuse is hollow and trash. It is the shit instructions and the moronic style of play that he has chosen. Talented coaches improve players and get them playing as a team fairly quickly, the idea that they are too stupid to be coached is truly one of the most brainless, baseless excuses I have read on here.
troylocker
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If you compare us now and then it's quite obvious that we now have less heart and even less brain now. Ole ball looks like rocket science compared to what we look like now. The fact that our results are extremely flattering compared to our performances this season is very frightening.Yes, that's the point. We messed up and put ourselves in bad spots but the players didn't gave up or demonstrated mental weakness. As far as I know mental strength isn't just about doing things well and only well, it's also about messing up maybe even messing up regularly and pulling yourself up and find the strength to fix it.
In fact from memory our standard issue was that we were generally structurally poor, the opposition would make us pay and our response was to create chaos and outgun the opposition.
The point isn't that we were good or highly flawed in many aspects but that the reason we had a good season in terms of result was largely due to a never die mentality. And we finished second.
Edit: To me under Ole we were all heart and no brain.
Our defensive numbers (expected goals conceded) this season is the worst we have ever registered.
This season in the prem: 1,99xGC/90
Compare that to the Ole season your referred to and Ole ball doesn't seem that "no brain" (20/21): 1,10xGC/90
Now we look like we don't have a clue how to defend and we are overrun every time we lose possession. We're out of position, we leave enormous space between the midfield and the defence and behind the defence and the defence gets little to no protection from our DMs in transitions. Casemiro, Amrabat and Eriksen can't even sprint and Eriksen who's played 10 or 8 his entire career has no clue when it comes to defensive positioning and finds himself in no mans land more often than not. Yesterday ETH replaced Mainoo with Eriksen and kept playing our "9 men in front of the ball in possession" football with Casemiro, Eriksen and Maguire (the three slowest players on the pitch) as our anchors and let Coventry hit us on the break every time they won the ball, at a time in the match where we should be putting more bodies behind the ball, play with little risk and make sure we don't give away opportunities in transition. The defensive tactics and tactical management was shocking to say the least, and we do the same every week.
stevoc
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Yeah as bad as injuries have been this season. We've had terrible seasons injury wise before.Injuries. That injury crisis was incredibly bad. At some point we started with Borthwick Jackson, Mcnair and Varela.
bdspeedy
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There is still a huge problem with the attitude of entitlement and player-power with the team. What's with our Physios? An unprecedented amount of injuries and the players who ARE fit to play, have no legs. Most of the better teams seem to run for days but we have players complaining about the training being too hard. As for the manager, years of hearing about finding that magic bullet of a coach for us is getting old. We heard about long forgotten or failed at this level coaches like Rodgers, Poch, Laudrup,... Tim Sherwood was suggested years ago... anyway, we're stuck with Ten Hag for the foreseeable future whether we like it or not. We can't afford to pay him out and spend big to get someone else. Maybe now that a fair amount of his recruitment responsibilities have been taken away, he can concentrate on training and coaching. I still contend that we'll NEVER win ANYTHING until the Glazers, their hangers on and their ugly legacy are miles away from our club.
Smores
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The midfield gap is exactly how Ajax played though. His main thing was creating space so players would leave holes for others to come in and receive the pass.I honestly also don't believe that this big midfield gap is what he wants, but that the defenders should play higher up to close it. Yet they don't, and it's understandable looking at the defenders United have, they are not really suited for that.
So I think he either accepts that the team can't play as he wants and just ignores the problem, or he doesn't accept it and is incredible weak as their manager because that would mean that (at least part of) the team doesn't do what he wants.
But in the end I guess it doesn't matter. If this is what he wants, he deserves to be sacked. If he accepts the holes in this formation despite actually not wanting to have them, he deservers to be sacked. And if the team isn't following him, well you guessed it, he also deserves to be sacked.
The issue is it leaves you vulnerable if the team lose the ball as you've lost some coverage. Works fine against dross teams but against any decent team it's going to be volatile. It's just too chaotic for a big team and it won't work here.
crossy1686
career ending
No squad is capable of it in the PL. You can get away with it in Germany or Holland when you can simply outrun more than half the teams in the league. Klopp came here with the same bullshit and dropped it as soon as he realised it wasn't sustainable.He said the squad wasn't capable and we needed open heart surgery, he made no secret of it.
This season the players have been complaining about the intensity of training, sound familiar?
Of course the squad wasn't capable, they didn't plan for it. The scheduling, type of conditioning and squad management of a team depends heavily on the tactical approach of a team. You can't go from a possession heavy approach like we did during Ole last season to the most aggressive version of gegenpress in the middle of the season. Even with a preseason focused on it, you will likely struggle a bit at the start of the season.He said the squad wasn't capable and we needed open heart surgery, he made no secret of it.
This season the players have been complaining about the intensity of training, sound familiar?
stefan92
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In a way it still is fair to say that Ole ball was a bit of "no brain": It was generally a pretty simple defensive setup which every player easily understands his role in.If you compare us now and then it's quite obvious that we now have less heart and even less brain now. Ole ball looks like rocket science compared to what we look like now. The fact that our results are extremely flattering compared to our performances this season is very frightening.
Our defensive numbers (expected goals conceded) this season is the worst we have ever registered.
This season in the prem: 1,99xGC/90
Compare that to the Ole season your referred to and Ole ball doesn't seem that "no brain" (20/21): 1,10xGC
Now we look like we don't have a clue how to defend and we are overrun every time we lose possession. We're out of position, we leave enormous space between the midfield and the defence and behind the defence and the defence gets little to no protection from our DMs in transitions. Casemiro, Amrabat and Eriksen can't even sprint and Eriksen who's played 10 or 8 his entire career has no clue when it comes to defensive positioning and finds himself in no mans land more often than not. Yesterday ETH replaced Mainoo with Eriksen and kept playing our "9 men in front of the ball in possession" football with Casemiro, Eriksen and Maguire (the three slowest players on the pitch) as our anchors and let Coventry hit us on the break every time they won the ball, at a time in the match where we should be putting more bodies behind the ball, play with little risk and make sure we don't give away opportunities in transition. The defensive tactics and tactical management was shocking to say the least, and we do the same every week.
I think what EtH is trying (and failing) to do is much more complicated and theoretically sophisticated, but just doesn't work.
A simple but effective style can work better than a well thought through but complicated and ineffective style. And I think that's what's happening here.
stevoc
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The first bit absolutely, they domn't have a clue and have been hoping they'd discover another SAF who'd run the football side for them. In hindsight it's ludicrous the amount of control we've given managers.We have been giving managers power because the ones in charge had no idea what they were doing and presumed the managers did regarding recruiting players.
The culture of going behind managers backs to the likes of Woodward has been going on since SAF left and there have been a couple of really high profile managers during that time. We created a culture of letting players having power on if a manager stays or goes and that should never be their choice.
On the second part I'll take your word on it as I've not heard much about that going on over the years. But no doubt it might well have.
stefan92
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I rarely watched them... I acknowledge it existed in a way, but I can't remember it being this big.The midfield gap is exactly how Ajax played though. His main thing was creating space so players would leave holes for others to come in and receive the pass.
The issue is it leaves you vulnerable if the team lose the ball as you've lost some coverage. Works fine against dross teams but against any decent team it's going to be volatile. It's just too chaotic for a big team and it won't work here.
Cassidy
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It wasn't this big because the defensive line and pressing was better, the setup of the midfield though was the sameI rarely watched them... I acknowledge it existed in a way, but I can't remember it being this big.