We're likely to finish 8th and even that would be fortunate based on performances. By many metrics we're a bottom 3rd side, we were never this bad.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
For those obsessed with the 400m number, is it really impossible to think about how it was constructed, and whose fault that really was? Or is that too much to ask? I'm on the fence with ETH because I think whatever experiment he's trying has failed, and he's not changing it, which seems daft. But the amount of sh*t he gets on transfers is ridiculous.
Firstly, and most importantly, he is the manager. None of us are in the rooms, but he is explicitly not the one negotating terms and fees. He is clearly consulted and identifies targets, but it is not his job to get them at the right price. It is also not his job to set or even be able to impact the overall transfer budget. There are plenty of people at United who can, should and have taken the blame for that. And they're largely gone now thankfully.
Secondly, on to the actual situation. In his first summer, he identified that we had no midfield. Fans rejoiced. He identified the need for an energetic number 6 who could dictate play. He suggested FdJ, Barcelona said huzzah money, Frankie said no. Said negotiators tried all summer and failed. In the meantime, he did bring in Eriksen on a free to bolster numbers as short-term solution. He brought in our future player of the season for a similar fee to Arsenal buying Timber. He also brought in a young LB to provide cover. That was it. That's what we entered the season with. After a pretty thorough squad clean out. He also identified the need for a left-footed forward to augment the attack, especially given we'd lost Greenwood. Fast forward to two terrible defeats finally lighting a fire under the upper-management's backsides, and they panic buy. They make a 30 year old Casemiro one of the most expensive transfers in history, and throw all the money at Ajax to get Antony. Those two buys are basically half the money ETH is beaten up for. A player he didn't want, and one we hugely overpaid for - which I maintain was not his job or fault. For me, that was a terrible summer from a terrible management who didn't support ETH properly.
Then he was forced - again because of a good, needed clear-out, to try to find decent players available on loan, because we literally didn't have a CF and backup MF. At the 'biggest club in hte world'. And you know what? You don't get great players on loan.
Second summer I do think is more on ETH. We needed a new keeper, got one in line with fees paid by other clubs for keepers. And after an awful first few months, he's been largely fine. We needed 2 new CFs, ETH got one, again at huge expense because that's what United negotiators do. Look around, great sages of the caf, and give us your CFs purchased last summer that have been incredible successes, that we could have/should have gone for. And we got Mount. I'll be the first to admit I don't get it, but also the first to admit I can't get it because he hasn't been fit to show what his role is.
What I see is that ETH has not come close to being able to replace the pure first-team squad numbers he has removed, and has brought in a very low number of players. Of which, 3 have been injured this entire season. Put another way, all of ETH's defensive signings have not been able to play this season.
All I see from the 400m is about 150m worth of players that our amazing negotiators paid 250m over the odds for. Now maybe you want to beat up ETH for that, but I really don't think that's his fault.
Beat him up for playing a donut formation, for playing Rashford through this 'form' for failing to instill game-management into senior players. But you can't say it's his players that have us in 6th. Outside of the keeper, the most minutes are all played by players here before he arrived.
Firstly, and most importantly, he is the manager. None of us are in the rooms, but he is explicitly not the one negotating terms and fees. He is clearly consulted and identifies targets, but it is not his job to get them at the right price. It is also not his job to set or even be able to impact the overall transfer budget. There are plenty of people at United who can, should and have taken the blame for that. And they're largely gone now thankfully.
Secondly, on to the actual situation. In his first summer, he identified that we had no midfield. Fans rejoiced. He identified the need for an energetic number 6 who could dictate play. He suggested FdJ, Barcelona said huzzah money, Frankie said no. Said negotiators tried all summer and failed. In the meantime, he did bring in Eriksen on a free to bolster numbers as short-term solution. He brought in our future player of the season for a similar fee to Arsenal buying Timber. He also brought in a young LB to provide cover. That was it. That's what we entered the season with. After a pretty thorough squad clean out. He also identified the need for a left-footed forward to augment the attack, especially given we'd lost Greenwood. Fast forward to two terrible defeats finally lighting a fire under the upper-management's backsides, and they panic buy. They make a 30 year old Casemiro one of the most expensive transfers in history, and throw all the money at Ajax to get Antony. Those two buys are basically half the money ETH is beaten up for. A player he didn't want, and one we hugely overpaid for - which I maintain was not his job or fault. For me, that was a terrible summer from a terrible management who didn't support ETH properly.
Then he was forced - again because of a good, needed clear-out, to try to find decent players available on loan, because we literally didn't have a CF and backup MF. At the 'biggest club in hte world'. And you know what? You don't get great players on loan.
Second summer I do think is more on ETH. We needed a new keeper, got one in line with fees paid by other clubs for keepers. And after an awful first few months, he's been largely fine. We needed 2 new CFs, ETH got one, again at huge expense because that's what United negotiators do. Look around, great sages of the caf, and give us your CFs purchased last summer that have been incredible successes, that we could have/should have gone for. And we got Mount. I'll be the first to admit I don't get it, but also the first to admit I can't get it because he hasn't been fit to show what his role is.
What I see is that ETH has not come close to being able to replace the pure first-team squad numbers he has removed, and has brought in a very low number of players. Of which, 3 have been injured this entire season. Put another way, all of ETH's defensive signings have not been able to play this season.
All I see from the 400m is about 150m worth of players that our amazing negotiators paid 250m over the odds for. Now maybe you want to beat up ETH for that, but I really don't think that's his fault.
Beat him up for playing a donut formation, for playing Rashford through this 'form' for failing to instill game-management into senior players. But you can't say it's his players that have us in 6th. Outside of the keeper, the most minutes are all played by players here before he arrived.
I'm expecting him to stay. My expectations for next season are at its lowest it's ever been.
If your gonna compare points then let’s have a look at when we finished 3rd with ole and only had 66 pts and then the year before that we finished 6th on 66 pts. The points only tell you how good the other teams around you have been aswell, since getting 3rd on the same points you got when finishing 6th means the teams when we finished 3rd must have been bad around us. As for the CL, yes we’ve had a bad campaign but can you really compare it to a group where we had Leverkusen who weren’t good back then, sociedad and shakhtar? This year we had Bayern, Galatasaray who are better than your making them out to be and have won there league. We got screwed over by a red against Copenhagen. But I agree this is by far the worse season in regards to GD.
The only way he can stay is if there is the mother of all clearouts and squad overhauls, because next season will be much of the same shite otherwise.
I still think he's a dead man walking.
I still think he's a dead man walking.
I think it’s far more realistic to believe that a manager who is heavily involved in transfers and has significant authority over our dealings will have been made aware of a) what our overall financial capability is, b) what it will require to close those deals than to believe he was kept completely in the dark over both.
Of course at a competent club none of these deals go through but I don’t for a second believe ETH was unaware of all of this.
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Needs to be taken into consideration that we had won the league the year before and had a squad full of proven winners.
That said, overall I agree, this season is the worst I can remember watching. The amount of late game losses is like a sick inversion of watching us under Fergie. We should have a worse goal difference tbh, considering how any and every team has cut through us like tissue paper. We’ve been lucky that a number of teams have fluffed their chances with our defence on their heels.
Galatasaray were knocked out of EL they dropped into by Sparta Prague, the same team that got obliterated by Liverpool in the following round. They were miles worse than any of the teams we faced in 13-14 and so were Copenhagen (who barely made it out of qualifiers against Polish champions, Raków, where having watched both games Raków were by far the more dangerous team). Our 13-14 group was actually fairly tricky as all three sides were solid, this year it was one good team (that we still got to play on their holidays in the final game which was convenient) and two very bad teams.
As for the league, obviously points are a good measure as they indicate your own performance. The league has actually been quite weak this year and we are still struggling to get to 60.
After 11,700 posts I thought you would have learned that common sense does not prevail on the 'Caf.
The days when the Chairman and manager sit down and phone Leeds to ask if Eric Cantona is available for 10x less than what he's worth are well gone.
I think you are dead right, in that United have gone in with stupid offers for bang average players in the hope of getting them, what happened to the days when United were not even mentioned until the price was agreed, and if it leaked, United backed out ?
No club is going to turn down £40m for a bang average player, and no average player is going to turn down £200k a week
No, of course that was a horrible season and well below expectations, that team was much better than it showed and expectations were way higher. Just in terms of overall quality, performance, results it was still miles better than this year. We are literally having a season West Ham would be severely disappointed with.
Yup, no disagreement there.
You weren't around in 73/74 then, that was dire, everyone with an ounce of common sense knew we were down at Christmas, and that followed a period of terrible signings, poor performances, and numerous managerial changes.
Great post! The 400m transfers is just another reason to beat ETH with.
If you don't blame Ten Hag for the Antony transfer, you won't blame him for anything. It's not just the money. If he didn't say, this guy is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League, let alone United, he's not the right man. He can't beat a player.
Everyone is just annoyed and angry which is understandable so everyone’s gonna say this is the worse season ever even though it probably isn’t because people won’t go so far back. That will all be erased from memory.
Yeah, I was 12-11 years off being born. I did say worst I had seen, I’m not trying to claim we’ve never been worse.
Really good interview if others haven't seen it:
Exactly, like Crystal Palace should have kept Frank de Boer
I do actually agree with Casemiro though, it was quite clearly a club transfer more than it was ETH transfer. At the same time he was our second most important player last season.
I will watch the interview later today so I can’t comment yet but if he’s going to stay at least change the fecking style of play, we can’t continue playing like shit every week regardless if we win or lose. Arsenal, City etc are playing a different sport to the shit we’re serving up.
I’m not after excuses either, we have had a load of injuries but there are teams with much worse squads than ours playing a better brand of football it needs sorting as priority it’s a fecking disgrace in all honesty. Negative goal difference and conceding chances at the level of relegation fodder Sheff United and Luton? no excuse for that
I’m not after excuses either, we have had a load of injuries but there are teams with much worse squads than ours playing a better brand of football it needs sorting as priority it’s a fecking disgrace in all honesty. Negative goal difference and conceding chances at the level of relegation fodder Sheff United and Luton? no excuse for that
Some woeful takes in this:
Madrid have Joseulu but have a system with Vini and Rodrigo and 6 world class midfielders around it and this is for one season whilst they await Mbappe. Every single one of Madrid's 8 players in those positions (and Brahim Diaz) would be a starter here.
19/20 season - Madrid had Vini and Rodrigo aye but they had Benzema who scored 27 goals that year and had Jovic (admittedly a failure), Hazard played 20 games etc.
Madrid's injury prone shite players were of a higher proven level than ours and they do a pretty good job at just binning them off when they're shit. They don't persevere with them for 10 years pretending that the next season they'll develop Lazarus like regeneration and have no injuries
He is horrible to listen to.
I’m fine with him staying, if INEOS think that’s the right decision and that he’s not to blame for this shitshow of a season. The injuries have been ridiculous, and the player quality of those who have been available is frankly mid-table. Two of our most important players from last season have been injured for most of the season, and another two have fallen off a cliff. Our three best and most consistent players have been two teenagers and a right back.
So yeah, fine with him staying, but it must also mean a significant clearout.
So yeah, fine with him staying, but it must also mean a significant clearout.
I doubt you can find full games, because most of it was edited out for Match Of The Day, but even the bits they kept in convey just how bad we were in that season.
I’m good for United being shit content, tyvm
I don't even think recruitment is the main thing held against him. It's part of the parcel but the biggest concern is the man's inability to prevent this team being opened up every single game without fail and doing nothing to change it.
And then he's telling people we play entertaining and dynamic football when we've failed on just about every metric this season. Recruitment records go out of the window when you reach those levels of delusion. He hasn't a scooby.
For neutrals maybe, we're dull as feck to watch from a supporters point of view.
Stop reading The Sun
When were those days?
I genuinely don't know what you're going on about, but I'm guessing quite ironically you are more aware of headlines of the dirt sheet known as The Sun than I am.
People are still arguing about ETH capabilities and suitability 
.
This is a discussion some of us had it here long long before, we were called names but the fact remains. ETH will never win 29-30 games a season in PL. Never. He doesn't understand how to control football matches.
You can never win 30 games in a season when you can't control virtually all your matches.
You need to control 38 games even if you lose them
Have 5-6 desperate games in those 38 games.
Have 3-4 games where you play badly/out of form sort of
Then win the other 28-30 games. That's the standard.
That's what Pep does. Is what Arteta is trying to do and fight off.
ETH has not shown anything that he can achieve this. Just the way he setups the team you can tell we will never win 25 games in a PL season.
How people expect him to magically transform to a Pep form coach is delusional. City last lost a football game in December 2023, bar the penalty shootout against Madrid.
People have to accept, we hired a very substandard coach. Let's move on early
.This is a discussion some of us had it here long long before, we were called names but the fact remains. ETH will never win 29-30 games a season in PL. Never. He doesn't understand how to control football matches.
You can never win 30 games in a season when you can't control virtually all your matches.
You need to control 38 games even if you lose them
Have 5-6 desperate games in those 38 games.
Have 3-4 games where you play badly/out of form sort of
Then win the other 28-30 games. That's the standard.
That's what Pep does. Is what Arteta is trying to do and fight off.
ETH has not shown anything that he can achieve this. Just the way he setups the team you can tell we will never win 25 games in a PL season.
How people expect him to magically transform to a Pep form coach is delusional. City last lost a football game in December 2023, bar the penalty shootout against Madrid.
People have to accept, we hired a very substandard coach. Let's move on early
Hey, no problem , I could of been clearer to be fair to you!
It’s the implication that “you are a loyal ETH supporter” that I have an issue with. I’m a United fan who thinks the clubs been a mess since SAF retired. It’s been run into the ground by the glazers (and by extension the people they empower to ruin it).
Managers can only be empowered by other people at the club. Only other people can change how the clubs being run (including manager choices). Choosing completely different kinds of managers every time has been a huge reason why we need entire rebuilds and why our squads look so disjointed.
It also meant that each new manager has had a huge job to get us anywhere near to where we want to get to. This is compounded by absolutely god awful negotiations (Woodard/arnold or whoever) for players in/out and contract extensions.
There’s more but it’s all been written before, but my overall point is that I’m not loyal to any one of our managers , I just see the major issues being how those above them have been compounding all our problems with bad decisions after bad decisions. It doesn’t mean the managers are or have been good enough, it means I feel even if the managers might of been good enough we will never know cause they were working in sub optimal conditions
This poll is stupid it gives a false impression of where people are with him. I want him gone as I think he's the worst united manager I've ever seen. But not until the structure is in place more than it is now so a coherent plan can be made on the style and therefore manager hire.
The original poll was fine, leave it going and make it public. Simple.
The original poll was fine, leave it going and make it public. Simple.
Because clearly the two things are the same.
I did enjoy Palaces league cup win and back to back FACup finals.
They're entertaining for fans who love to see United playing so poorly. Not so much for the rest of us.
This is the worst we've been since I started following United, in my opinion. The stats bear it out. The squad is awful and frankly, I think the manager is miles out of his depth and his own worst enemy all at the same time. It's painful both on and off the pitch.
Someone rename the thread to Sackwatch .....ffs
13/14 - 7th with 64 points. Scored 64, conceded 43 in the league (goal difference of +21). In the CL we topped our group before going on to lose to Bayern in the quarters.
21/22 - 6th with 58 points. Scored 57, conceded 57 (goal difference of 0). In the CL we topped our group then lost against Atletico in the Round of 16,
Considering our current form and our last four fixtures, there's a fairly strong chance we end the PL season in 8th with lower points, lower goals scored, more goals conceded and a negative goal difference, all while finishing last in our CL group. What's almost worse is that based on our actual performances we should be significantly lower, and we're being bailed out by individual moments and a lot of luck.
It's clearly up there with 21/22 as our worst season in the PL era, and by most metrics it's worse. If we turn things around and get some decent results in the last four games then maybe that'll change, but it's not looking good.
Did you temporarily go blind in 2013/14?
That’s a solid response, to be fair
1. Joselu has scored 14 goals, Madrid have 3 other players who have scored more, they clearly don’t rely on strikers and have plenty of quality in the team to compensate
2. Hazard was injured , my point was how much was the squad affected by his injury ? When he joined Madrid also spent another 200 million on transfers that summer ,hardly a shoestring squad (including Rodrigo). That would be like ETH getting Kane and Hoijland in one summer!
3. No experience in 2019/20? Varane, Ramos, Kroos, Benzema , courtois, Casemiro , valverde ? But even at that bale , Hazzard , junior could all be rotated when injuries were a problem. Hardly the same as Anthony , pellestri , Amad and an unproven Garnacho
4. Seems like strikers are not a an issue for Madrid considering the quality everywhere else on the park.
5 Real Madrid spends a lot on players but the quality of their squads has been far superior to Uniteds. Yes they get stick with players but the alternatives for managers is quality. They can drop bales or have injuries to hazards and the managers don’t have poor quality replacements.
Anchelloti had to deal with Bales golfing and Wales taunts. ETH had to deal with a sex and woman abuse scandal , his best forward going out drinking , a pierce Morgan interview from the highest profile player in the world , another player publicly calling him a liar on twitter and the club being for sale for the majority of his time. All that in less then 18 months at United!
United managers got madrids dregs, with Varane and Casemiro bought after their peak. That’s what United have offered our managers and it’s actually a decent reflection of how stupid our club has been.
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But we're 6th right now, not 8th. We aren't a bottom 3 side by any means. Sure, in some metrics we might be, but in others we're at the other end of the table. The table doesn't lie. What's with the hyperbole? People love to wallow in their own self-misery on this site.
It is absolutely not the worst season we've had. The ole/ Ragnick season was horrendous and depressing from start to finish. We had literally nothing to play for beyond Feb, finished with our lowest points tally and the future looked as bleak as it gets.
Mourinhos performance in his last season was imo way worse as well given where we were in the league table when he left. A big criticism laid on him (and lvg) was that the football was so defensive and boring.
Well, when you have such glaring holes in your first 11 on top of the injuries this year, but you still play ultra offensive and 'go for it', what we've seen since the turn of the year is the result. Fans say the minimum requirement is entertainment. If our games aren't, then what is? As much heartburn as our games give our fans, we've seen incredible matches and swings within games that have gone both ways which is pure entertainment. That's to be expected when you don't have the necessary tools to be consistent.
I am genuinely intrigued to know if there's any manager out there that has navigated a season with this many injuries and brought about the level of success expected of ten hag this year. We've had no lb all season and 3/4 cbs injured at any given time, on top of all the injuries in midfield and up top.
I hoenstly don't think ten hag will be sacked this summer and find it a little bizzare how people are talking as if he's already gone.