Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Kaos

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4bars said:
But middle east muslim governments couldn't give a crap of Palestine and they would love that Israel would kill or kick out all the palestinians so they could stop faking any concern and start to do business with Israel
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Yes and no. I think they prefer a status quo of perpetual Palestinian subjugation so they can always drum up some fake outrage to appease their citizens especially at times of domestic turmoil, (see Erdogan in Turkey) all while maintaining covert diplomatic ties with Israel (UAE and Saudi), but not for there to be a catastrophic humanitarian situation like now where they'd be expected to act on their bluffs.

If Palestine/Palestinians disappeared tomorrow they'd have no useful rallying point to distract their (often disgruntled) citizens, and would be in a fair bit of trouble. Then there's neighbouring countries like Lebanon and Egypt that would face an enormous refugee crisis they just aren't capable of dealing with.
 

4bars

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Kaos said:
Yes and no. I think they prefer a status quo of perpetual Palestinian subjugation so they can always drum up some fake outrage to appease their citizens especially at times of domestic turmoil, (see Erdogan in Turkey) all while maintaining covert diplomatic ties with Israel (UAE and Saudi), but not for there to be a catastrophic humanitarian situation like now where they'd be expected to act on their bluffs.

If Palestine/Palestinians disappeared tomorrow they'd have no useful rallying point to distract their (often disgruntled) citizens, and would be in a fair bit of trouble. Then there's neighbouring countries like Lebanon and Egypt that would face an enormous refugee crisis they just aren't capable of dealing with.
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Some things that doesnt add up

You said that they want a quite Subjugation do they can rally. But not what happend now. But you put as un example erdogan...that rallied when the genocide happened. Not when there was a quite subjugation. They were israels number one import partner

I dont think any government rallied anybody about palestine issue in many years besides Iran an yemen (that the government really wants the destruction of israel and palestina to exist)

I dont think any of the pro(ish)-western middle east rallied anyone on that and they cant wait for palestina to disappear besides as you well said, the neighbouring countries
 

Sky1981

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4bars said:
But middle east muslim governments couldn't give a crap of Palestine and they would love that Israel would kill or kick out all the palestinians so they could stop faking any concern and start to do business with Israel
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They do give a crap, maybe not on personal level but as you suggest their actions towards the whole Israel - Palestinian issue will affect the public perception.

As much as they're dictatorial at one point too much is too much and something else other than posturing would need to be done.

Put it this way, if the Russians are pounding the Ukrainian as bad as Israel you'd bet your lunch the government would do more drastic measures. I still believe in humanity and there will be a tipping point where enough is enough. Who'd have thought the Americans students would be the first to rise up in protest, these things can escalate fast.
 

4bars

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Sky1981 said:
They do give a crap, maybe not on personal level but as you suggest their actions towards the whole Israel - Palestinian issue will affect the public perception.

As much as they're dictatorial at one point too much is too much and something else other than posturing would need to be done.

Put it this way, if the Russians are pounding the Ukrainian as bad as Israel you'd bet your lunch the government would do more drastic measures. I still believe in humanity and there will be a tipping point where enough is enough. Who'd have thought the Americans students would be the first to rise up in protest, these things can escalate fast.
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I believe in humanity but not the power structure that governs humanity. And that is why the middle east governments (bar Iran and Yemen) would like the palestinians to disappear. They would not need posturing anymore. Now they need to mildly side on the palestinian side in their discours (0 meaning action), but if that would happen in the 70s, the disc discourse would be another
 

Idxomer

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4bars said:
Some things that doesnt add up

You said that they want a quite Subjugation do they can rally. But not what happend now. But you put as un example erdogan...that rallied when the genocide happened. Not when there was a quite subjugation. They were israels number one import partner

I dont think any government rallied anybody about palestine issue in many years besides Iran an yemen (that the government really wants the destruction of israel and palestina to exist)

I dont think any of the pro(ish)-western middle east rallied anyone on that and they cant wait for palestina to disappear besides as you well said, the neighbouring countries
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I'm not sure about that. They need the Palestine issue to remain unsolved but not for rallying reasons.
 

Kaos

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4bars said:
Some things that doesnt add up

You said that they want a quite Subjugation do they can rally. But not what happend now. But you put as un example erdogan...that rallied when the genocide happened. Not when there was a quite subjugation. They were israels number one import partner

I dont think any government rallied anybody about palestine issue in many years besides Iran an yemen (that the government really wants the destruction of israel and palestina to exist)

I dont think any of the pro(ish)-western middle east rallied anyone on that and they cant wait for palestina to disappear besides as you well said, the neighbouring countries
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Leaders like Erdogan depend on the status quo because he knows that every now and then things kick off, lots of Palestinians die, and he can hold his neo-Ottoman rallies, giving it large about how Turkey will not accept these crimes, all while attempting to distract from his quasi-autocratic ways as well as the domestic and economical turmoil within Turkey. Without that, all he has to fall back on as a distraction is drumming up anti-Kurdish or anti-EU rhetoric.

The other Arab dictators enjoy Palestinian subjugation because it allows them to chime in with how awful and unjust it all is, in a cynical attempt to remind their citizens that they're human beings that care for their fellow Muslims/Arabs. Its all pretty vacuous.

My point is a resolution or change from the status quo doesn't benefit them - for some its because it deprives them of a rallying point to distract from issues at home, and for others because they're neighouring nations that will face a catastrophic refugee crisis should Israel go full speed ahead with their ethnic cleansing aspirations.
 

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Even the wasps are anti-semitic, it really is israel against the world.
 

4bars

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Idxomer said:
I'm not sure about that. They need the Palestine issue to remain unsolved but not for rallying reasons.
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Kaos said:
Leaders like Erdogan depend on the status quo because he knows that every now and then things kick off, lots of Palestinians die, and he can hold his neo-Ottoman rallies, giving it large about how Turkey will not accept these crimes, all while attempting to distract from his quasi-autocratic ways as well as the domestic and economical turmoil within Turkey. Without that, all he has to fall back on as a distraction is drumming up anti-Kurdish or anti-EU rhetoric.

The other Arab dictators enjoy Palestinian subjugation because it allows them to chime in with how awful and unjust it all is, in a cynical attempt to remind their citizens that they're human beings that care for their fellow Muslims/Arabs. Its all pretty vacuous.

My point is a resolution or change from the status quo doesn't benefit them - for some its because it deprives them of a rallying point to distract from issues at home, and for others because they're neighouring nations that will face a catastrophic refugee crisis should Israel go full speed ahead with their ethnic cleansing aspirations.
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I dont see like you both. But it is fine. I agree that as you both say, they use the palestinians for their autocratic rhetoric, as they are trying to do the most of it about the nuisance, but they would rather prefer not to have the nuisance. But lets agree to disagree
 

Idxomer

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4bars said:
I dont see like you both. But it is fine. I agree that as you both say, they use the palestinians for their autocratic rhetoric, as they are trying to do the most of it about the nuisance, but they would rather prefer not to have the nuisance. But lets agree to disagree
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Tbh, it's best to examine each case individually. These countries and regimes differ a bit, even though the methods of their rulers might not be that different. Talking about them as this monolithic entity does simplify things a little.
 

Kaos

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Idxomer said:
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I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.
 

Frosty

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Kaos said:
I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.
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Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
 

Kaos

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Frosty said:
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
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Very helpful explanation, thanks.
 

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Frosty said:
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
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On Hungary, its definitely an Orban thing, as pre-Orban Hungary had good relations with the PLO and PA.
 

4bars

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Idxomer said:
Tbh, it's best to examine each case individually. These countries and regimes differ a bit, even though the methods of their rulers might not be that different. Talking about them as this monolithic entity does simplify things a little.
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Sure, I can agree on that. I think I made a comment that I was refering the pro(ish)-western middle east countries. That means Saudi Arabia, UAE countries, and others. Egypt and Jordan if it would not mean to take refugees. Even Turkey. Being a full time trade partner is better than now have to suspend relationships with israel.

Iran an Yemen are in the other end.

And then you have others like Oman and Bahrein(that I have 0 idea), Qatar that is a player to get gravitas in the region and Iraqm Syria and Lebannon that have enough problems in their hands

Generalizing is never good and any of them will capitalize Palestina for its own PR stunts gain, but most of the governments (not its people) would rather the "problem" to disappear and be able to recognize Israel and stablish relationships way far than the position 40-50 years ago

In the end, money is king
 

4bars

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Frosty said:
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
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An Argentina have one of the biggest populations in the world and crazy Milei is a right wing extremist too
 

Giggsyking

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Kaos said:
I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.
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Hate for Muslims.
 

Giggsyking

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So Palestine will be granted the right to sit in the general assembly as a state from now on?

edit, the answer is Yes.

Here are some of the changes in status that Palestine will have a right to as a result of the resolution passing (only effective at the new session of the Assembly that opens on 10 September):
1) To be seated among Member States in alphabetical order;
2) make statements on behalf of a group;
3) submit proposals and amendments and introduce them;
4) co-sponsor proposals and amendments, including on behalf of a group;
5) propose items to be included in the provisional agenda of the regular or special sessions and the right to request the inclusion of supplementary or additional items in the agenda of regular or special sessions;
6) the right of members of the delegation of the State of Palestine to be elected as officers in the plenary and the Main Committees of the General Assembly;
7) full and effective participation in United Nations conferences and international conferences and meetings convened under the auspices of the General Assembly or, as appropriate, under the auspices of other organs of the United Nations
 

Redplane

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RedSky said:
Truly embarrassing. Well done France.
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Id imagine France probably has the largest Middle Eastern population as a percentage of its population compared to all the other European nations, no? Not saying they did it just for that reason, but given their history with riots in France you d have to think the potential for unrest within their own borders of they voted differently might have been part of the consideration.

Also: Ireland voted yes as well, as did Iceland and Greece, Belgium and most of the micro states.
 
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