stevoc
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It would likely benefit our rivals.Do you see how by not sacking him there could be some benefit?
It would likely benefit our rivals.Do you see how by not sacking him there could be some benefit?
To a degree where some results could be excused, yes but not the unraveling of the whole season and us finishing 8th and going out of the champions league at group stage. And I don't even think it could be considered an excuse especially if it's related to any of the coaching/training methods - we don't have the knowledge but there's no reason it couldn't happen again. What's galling is despite all of this, the manager has continued to persist with suicidal tactics that have only meant our defence is constantly stretched and at risk for more injuries through last ditch challenges/interventions. Most of our injuries have also been at the back so that still doesn't explain how poor we've been going forward have scored among the lowest number of goals, likely even lower than van Gaal's attritional season. I might even be willing to be sympathetic to Ten Hag if he admitted the number of shots on goal we were conceding was a problem or his tactics weren't working - but nope, it's all referees/VAR, injuries and players not following his instructions.Well when you believe they are being paid for their opinion I’d argue you’re not going to take any facts they then present on board.
You consider them excuses when they could well be considered explanations or context behind underperformance.
For example do you accept that the injuries we’ve had would impact the performance of the squad this season?
I ask this because I’m willing to discuss further based on your response.
So where did you predict United to finish in the league?Yeah it’s somewhere in the where do you think United will finish thread from the start of the season.
You do wonder if SAF has ever had regrets saying about supporting the manager. That one phrase has been a bit of a millstone around our necks. Not that we have not sacked managers, but people, especially ex players are treated it as some sort of sacrilege.It was top 2 under Jose. Top 4 under Ole and ETH has now successfully tricked the club and a large portion of naïve fans into thinking 8 teams are now all equally competing for the title. - literally his words.
I think it’s just more you don’t want to see it honestly because it quite clearly explains why we regressed so much. if anything we actually exceeded expectation last season because Rashford had a purple patch but he was never going to keep that going.Literally none of that explains why we have regressed so much. Nobody would have predicted us to "struggle for top 8" before this season simply because the team is clearly better than that. As if other sides except for City and Arsenal don't have issues with not all players being the right fit. Since when is "top 8" a thing anyway.
If sacking somebody is the right decision you do it. They seem for have forgotten we dismissed five managers from Sir Matt Busby until we got SAF in.It didn't help but I think all the same things would have been said. Neville and co are staggeringly ignorant in all matters United and how the club should be run. He'd still have been parroting dumb lines whenever asked like 'Manchester United are not a sacking club, it just isn't the way we do things'.
Suppose 2 things would beWould be nice if someone could give an answer as to what value ETH would add next season to the Ineos project, over any other manager.
Won't accept anything to do with the selling of players as an answer because that's already been debunked.
Bearing in mind we paid him £9m for the privilege of his coaching this season. At least £6.25m is committed for next season and then another £6-9m will have to be committed to him sometime early next season if he's allowed to stay. He's paid elite manager money, only Pep gets more.
But only Rashford, Shaw and Dalot have survived multiple sackings (Martial and Lindelof leaving regardless).Suppose 2 things would be
1) that he’ll get to continue the development of Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund
2) if he stays the players might think they can’t keep getting managers sacked at will
Not that I think either is a solid enough reason to keep him
Ok so we can agree there has been an impact and it’s fair to say then we just disagree over the severity of that impact?To a degree where some results could be excused, yes but not the unraveling of the whole season and us finishing 8th and going out of the champions league at group stage. And I don't even think it could be considered an excuse especially if it's related to any of the coaching/training methods - we don't have the knowledge but there's no reason it couldn't happen again. What's galling is despite all of this, the manager has continued to persist with suicidal tactics that have only meant our defence is constantly stretched and at risk for more injuries through last ditch challenges/interventions. Most of our injuries have also been at the back so that still doesn't explain how poor we've been going forward have scored among the lowest number of goals, likely even lower than van Gaal's attritional season. I might even be willing to be sympathetic to Ten Hag if he admitted the number of shots on goal we were conceding was a problem or his tactics weren't working - but nope, it's all referees/VAR, injuries and players not following his instructions.
Well yeah but it’s the culture of the club and most of football now. If players turn on a manager he’s generally done. I think backing a manager through it forces players to either like it or lump itBut only Rashford, Shaw and Dalot have survived multiple sackings (Martial and Lindelof leaving regardless).
Genuinely think people need to be more worried about what Mainoo Garnacho and Hojlund could end up like if they're exposed to more ETH next season. More of the same intensity levels in matches and training, while also being so heavily relied on they start every game. Repeat muscle injuries have happened to Shaw, Casemiro and Mount this season, who knows who could be next.
This is the posting equivalenylt of waving an imaginary yellow card and not needed.This should be an instant ban.
So you can just make up hypotheticals to try prove your point? They've been heavily relied upon and played a high intensity and not had repeat muscle injuries. Ten Hag has regularly protected both Mainoo and Hojlund by subbing them and Garnacho doesn't seem like he ever wants to be subbed. Unless you think we'll sign no one in midfield or a back up striker, because we'll likely be playing far less games, I don't see how your point has any basis.But only Rashford, Shaw and Dalot have survived multiple sackings (Martial and Lindelof leaving regardless).
Genuinely think people need to be more worried about what Mainoo Garnacho and Hojlund could end up like if they're exposed to more ETH next season. More of the same intensity levels in matches and training, while also being so heavily relied on they start every game. Repeat muscle injuries have happened to Shaw, Casemiro and Mount this season, who knows who could be next.
Either that, or only you and Ten Hag can see it. Even his biggest defenders do not agree with it becuse frankly, it's ridiculous. I take it also finishing dead last in an easy CL group was expected as well as he can't do better with this squad.I think it’s just more you don’t want to see it honestly because it quite clearly explains why we regressed so much. if anything we actually exceeded expectation last season because Rashford had a purple patch but he was never going to keep that going.
Is English not your first language? Because Top 8 is only reference to the top 8 positions. Nothing more. I just thought it would be a struggle for us to finish within the top 8 positions.
I said I think Ole will be the guy before a proper title challenging manager. Then we signed Ronaldo and couldn’t press anymore.Did you not used to roll out the same schtick when it was OGS in charge?
I think we cracked the code. Failing manager + Time = Sir Alex Ferguson.Ferguson 89-90 -1, did badly in the league but scraped through to the FA Cup final and then won it after a season rife with specualtion he was going to get sacked.
Just like Ten Hag this year, it's a sign.
Made up hypotheticals are the only basis for this thread and every pro-ETH argument.So you can just make up hypotheticals to try prove your point? They've been heavily relied upon and played a high intensity and not had repeat muscle injuries. Ten Hag has regularly protected both Mainoo and Hojlund by subbing them and Garnacho doesn't seem like he ever wants to be subbed. Unless you think we'll sign no one in midfield or a back up striker, because we'll likely be playing far less games, I don't see how your point has any basis.
Except you're just ignoring the facts. He regularly takes Mainoo off quite early and Hojlund isn't immune from substitution.Made up hypotheticals are the only basis for this thread and every pro-ETH argument.
At least that hypothetical is rational and extrapolated from the observation of muscle injuries striking down about half the playing squad during training sessions this season.
No I'm genuinely interested in reasons for keeping Ten Hag that are based in reality, because the vast majority of reasons in this thread are not.Except you're just ignoring the facts. He regularly takes Mainoo off quite early and Hojlund isn't immune from substitution.
There's plenty of reasons to criticise Ten Hag, but asking for people to give a positive and then just making something up as a reason to counter, just seems like you're not even interested in hearing an alternative opinion or an answer to the question you asked.
Well that's just 1 reason in a list of 5 and the least important so hardly worth focusing onWhich is the most unserious reason any club could possibly have to not sack a manager. Are they also not "bored" of constantly changing players? It's the same embarrassing "we're not a sacking club" stuff that keeps living on from Moyes era to this day. Same unhealthy attachment to one guy in the whole organization that we apparently can't get rid of.
It actually isn't made up, and was part of the report from the brazilian paper. That he maintains the same level of intensity in training thoughout the season regardless of fixtures. Also Hojlund is physically incapable of playing effectively past 70 minutes, we've seen that all season, and Mainoo is just a kid. Everyone else he runs into the ground.Except you're just ignoring the facts. He regularly takes Mainoo off quite early and Hojlund isn't immune from substitution.
There's plenty of reasons to criticise Ten Hag, but asking for people to give a positive and then just making something up as a reason to counter, just seems like you're not even interested in hearing an alternative opinion or an answer to the question you asked.
yes to all, in his first season.What about ETH have you seen that suggests he's worth keeping?
Has he motivated the players?
Has he coached them to play a certain way?
Has he displayed tactical nous?
Has he made good signings?
Perhaps he's achieved good results?
In my opinion he's not done anything well. What is there to keep?
No one is expecting no injuries but a normal injury list relative to other teams doesn't seem an unreasonable expectationI get all this and I'd normally be alright saying "go on, let's give it another try" due to the horrific injury list. However, his inability to adapt and change tactics when faced with an injury crisis is horrendous management and inexcusable, he's sleepwalked all the way through the season, just hoping the continuation of the same tactics will eventually "click".
So what happens if we have a good Summer, but then Martinez, a new centre back and a CM gets injured in November, because we clearly don't have a manager who can adapt, it's like we need to be the luckiest side in the league and have no issues, then we might be alright.
It's more about that there are no decision makers in place to make such a significant sporting decisionYeah cant wait for this argument to be used if ETH is allowed to start next season and the results keep spiralling.
'But Ashworth isn't in situ yet'
Then when he is - 'but he hasn't had time to affect anything'
'Cant judge ETH until Ashworth has had 2 full transfer windows to rescue him with the magical new Structure'
Ten Hag decided to terminate the Reguilon loan and also decided to loan Fernandez to Benfica, so clearly his decision making in this regard failed us from having adequate squad replacements in the event of injuries. He also decided that the injury-prone Mason Mount was worth investing in over an actual defensive midfielder who'd have helped and Mount has been a non-entity season and likely could be next one too if his injury history is an indication.Ok so we can agree there has been an impact and it’s fair to say then we just disagree over the severity of that impact?
I would argue that the drop down from having Shaw or Malacia to any of Lindelof, AWB, Dalot or Amrabat playing there is monumental and causes significant structural and tactical problems at LB. It decreases the defensive stability, the ability to progress out from the back. This also hampers our ability to attack down the left hand side as it limits our overlapping play and also impacts our midfield as we have no one happy to tuck inside to form a LCB or LDM role.
As for the persistence the only solution I could see is to drop deeper, close the gap and play counter attacking football that we are trying to get away from. Do you have an alternative solution?
Do you agree with the above at all?
We played hoofball that season too. Rashford being in the form of his life helped patch it up.yes to all, in his first season.
There are though. Ratcliffe, Brailsford, Berrada, Wilcox. Also Blanc has an input.It's more about that there are no decision makers in place to make such a significant sporting decision
His first season is a prime example of a checkbook manager getting the bare minimum out of his squad budget. Even with that kind of spending, he lost in the quarters in Europa league and suffered terrible thrashings, including a 7-0 to Liverpool.yes to all, in his first season.
Except it's not. He broadly outperformed expectations, hitting 2 finals and getting a cup whilst coasting 8pts clear into the top 4.His first season is a prime example of a checkbook manager getting the bare minimum out of his squad budget. Even with that kind of spending, he lost in the quarters in Europa league and suffered terrible thrashings, including a 7-0 to Liverpool.
Berrada is at City. There’s no CEO and no DoF.There are though. Ratcliffe, Brailsford, Berrada, Wilcox. Also Blanc has an input.
More than enough. If none of them have the balls to make a decision for the good of the club without foisting responsibility onto Ashworth then we are truly sunk before we've even left the harbour.
We haven't played consistently well since the Carabao Cup final last season. Apart from the 4-1 win against an awful Chelsea side who were in disarray.yes to all, in his first season.
Sounds like a great plan. When you have a manager who cannot do anything right and make the club the laughing stock of football, the club owns him to sacrifice two seasons. In EtH we trust.In my opinion the biggest issue to fix is the sporting structure and recruitment (and really reduce manager's control). If we do that and make good signings and have a fit squad and ETH is still stinking out the joint then get rid of him middle of next season. I am willing to give ETH the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't become a bad manager overnight. And we also need to send a message to the likes of Sancho that you can't just down tools and think you'll outlast the manager.
No, Berrada is on gardening leave. And due to start at United in July.Berrada is at City. There’s no CEO and no DoF.