Yes you are probably correct.
A parallel which comes to mind watching United today is England under Southgate. Both teams require maybe 8 defensively minded players, which leaves an embarassment of riches to compete for the remaining places.
3-5-2 formation this season for United?
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
A parallel which comes to mind watching United today is England under Southgate. Both teams require maybe 8 defensively minded players, which leaves an embarassment of riches to compete for the remaining places.
Definitely 352 for this season, I am convinced that suit us the best.
This formation won't work every week, but definitely has its place. Hope he plays this against Atlanta
We don’t have the right midfielders it play that. Plus our back 4 has been shaky and leaky. We definitely played far better football with 352.
We’ve never played 433 this season though so I don’t know how you can come to that conclusion
Villarreal. It was a horror show.
That's true. But generally speaking it has the best chance of balance, gets a front 3 out there without unbalancing the rest, and might even work with Pogba in midfield now that we have a back 3. Makes us hard to beat with world class attackers. It won't lead to great play like City or Liverpool, but a better chance at consistency like Chelsea.
Because our back four has been shaky, and we play McFred as our key midfielders, not so hard to figure that out.
It do fit our squad better, me thinks.
With three at the back you wouldn't need that defensive midfielder.
You'd get your width from the wingbacks, and depending on the quality of the opponent you could go for a more offensive player on that spot as their defensive role should get covered from one of the center backs when needed.
With so many forwards in the squad, it would make sense to start with two. I'd say that all our forwards are better centrally, occasionally drifting wide - rather than the other way around.
I actually think Sancho would be great at the no.10 role. Problem for him is that Bruno is there, but I feel that a manager should find enough game time for both of them in that position.
When I look at possible starting eleven, it doesn't look too bad. I could switch many players between "first" and "second" string. Especially offensively.
--------------------------------------------de gea---------------------------------------
----------------Lindelöf--------------Varane-------------Maguire------------
wan-bissaka----------Pogba---------------Fred---------------------Shaw
-------------------------------------------Bruno---------------------------------------
---------------------------Ronaldo--------------Rashford----------------------
----------------------------------------Henderson-------------------------------------
----------------McTominay--------Jones------------Bailly------------------
Dalot-------------------Donny---------------Matic---------------------Telles
-------------------------------------------Sancho---------------------------------------
-------------------------Greenwood--------------Cavani----------------------
With three at the back you wouldn't need that defensive midfielder.
You'd get your width from the wingbacks, and depending on the quality of the opponent you could go for a more offensive player on that spot as their defensive role should get covered from one of the center backs when needed.
With so many forwards in the squad, it would make sense to start with two. I'd say that all our forwards are better centrally, occasionally drifting wide - rather than the other way around.
I actually think Sancho would be great at the no.10 role. Problem for him is that Bruno is there, but I feel that a manager should find enough game time for both of them in that position.
When I look at possible starting eleven, it doesn't look too bad. I could switch many players between "first" and "second" string. Especially offensively.
--------------------------------------------de gea---------------------------------------
----------------Lindelöf--------------Varane-------------Maguire------------
wan-bissaka----------Pogba---------------Fred---------------------Shaw
-------------------------------------------Bruno---------------------------------------
---------------------------Ronaldo--------------Rashford----------------------
----------------------------------------Henderson-------------------------------------
----------------McTominay--------Jones------------Bailly------------------
Dalot-------------------Donny---------------Matic---------------------Telles
-------------------------------------------Sancho---------------------------------------
-------------------------Greenwood--------------Cavani----------------------
Call it for what it is - it's a 3-4-3, not a 3-5-2. We finished with a 3-5-2 but for most of the game it was just Bruno, Cavani and Ronaldo being the attackers roaming around up there. Can make it with wingers or as an inverted triangle, but its still 3 attackers roaming and having less defensive responsibility.
Whatever works, I support it fully. I do like the idea of strengthening the defensive aspect of things first and foremost
I completely disagree, the club have two of the worst midfielders in place for what seems good balance in exchange for the attacking impetus offered in the wide areas from Greenwood, Rashford and Sancho. That's Sancho, VDB and Pogba (less importance) that struggle to play in this system over 200 million of the teams value out of place.
Shaw and AWB are not wingbacks, Shaw plays far better with an attacker in front of him giving him space to overlap, his partnership with Marcus has proven key to this especially last season.
Make no mistake about it, we are playing a 3-5-2 because of one limited individual and that's the manager. I personally have no issue Solskjaer himself is a better conservative manager compared to the offensive. The complaints from fans about Conte and his supposed style show how low the understanding of fans are with the modern game tactically. LVG said it years ago that Solskjaer is defensive and got blasted but it's funny how we are seeing the fruits of it more recently.
A better manager finds balance with this team I think this is undoubtedly the reality. Solskjaer needs to get away from the United way nonsense he's never once shown to have the goods to be an offence minded coach / manager.
Our squad is pretty damn close to being complete for playing 5-3-2 regularly.
We'd need to recall Tuanzebe and possibly sign another CB for cover.
Dalot would be OK as RWB cover and we have Laird coming through also
We'd no longer need a replacement for Matic as a 6 isn't needed with this formation imo
1 of Lingard/Sancho needs to go though as we don't need 2 backups to Bruno.
De Gea/Hendo
Bissaka/Dalot
Varane/Tuanzebe
Lindelof/Bailly
Maguire/???
Shaw/Telles
McTominay/Fred
Pogba/VDB
Bruno/Lingard/Sancho
Cavani/Greenwood
CR7/Rashford
Haaland to replace Cavani next season. Possibly a top attacking RWB, a backup CB and a replacement for Pogba if he decides to leave.
That's literally all we need long term with this tactic.
No wonder Conte's so keen on the job.
We'd need to recall Tuanzebe and possibly sign another CB for cover.
Dalot would be OK as RWB cover and we have Laird coming through also
We'd no longer need a replacement for Matic as a 6 isn't needed with this formation imo
1 of Lingard/Sancho needs to go though as we don't need 2 backups to Bruno.
De Gea/Hendo
Bissaka/Dalot
Varane/Tuanzebe
Lindelof/Bailly
Maguire/???
Shaw/Telles
McTominay/Fred
Pogba/VDB
Bruno/Lingard/Sancho
Cavani/Greenwood
CR7/Rashford
Haaland to replace Cavani next season. Possibly a top attacking RWB, a backup CB and a replacement for Pogba if he decides to leave.
That's literally all we need long term with this tactic.
No wonder Conte's so keen on the job.
Greenwood and Rashford are far better playing as part of a front 2 or in a front 3 with wing backs. They're half strikers, wide forwards. Same with Ronaldo now. Not suited to be lone strikers but for sure in a system like this it works. Sancho was brilliant in a front 3 like that for Dortmund too. None of them have ever been that suited to playing wide in a 4231. It doesn't get the best out of them and we're always searching for balance.
We don't even need to rotate the CB's that much due to the nature of their job - and Shaw can play as part of the back 3 too. Mctominay has experience there too in a pinch.
People keep banging on about our attackers. But they're all shit defensively and are very much attackers, not midfielders. Can only use 3 of them at once (and Bruno is part of that group). The best formation to play 3 attackers but relieving them of too much defensive responsibility is a 3-4-3.
The defence finally looked calm and a little more organised.
We only have 3 CBs (plus bailly who I'd rather not count). Shaw could do a job there as well but playing 3 at the back is not sustainable every game for the whole season with our massively top heavy squad. But I'm all for it. It's the most balanced we've looked all season even if our squad is not optimised for it.
I don't think the formation is a problem for creativity in itself. It's the personnel and execution that would make it creative or not.
Maybe drop one of the 3 CBs to play Shaw LCB and Telles LWB against a deeper team or bring in Pogba in the pivot could increase creativity.
I don't think the formation is a problem for creativity in itself. It's the personnel and execution that would make it creative or not.
Maybe drop one of the 3 CBs to play Shaw LCB and Telles LWB against a deeper team or bring in Pogba in the pivot could increase creativity.
It's one thing playing a McFred double pivot to balance the team, though that itself attracted criticism. But it's another to also have to play a third CB behind McFred and use AWB as a wing-back to get that balance. We're having to compromise a lot in this shape and even then, it still involves Shaw, McFred and AWB across midfield which will inevitably mean struggles in possession in a lot of games as well. From the POV of a side looking to challenge for major trophies this year (which was the aim going into the season) it isn't good enough.
From the POV of a team whose manager is looking to hang on to his job until the end of the season though, it may well work because it should at least shore things up. So I won't criticise Solskjaer for using it, just as I wouldn't criticise a new manager for turning up and deciding this is the best way to get by.
From the POV of a team whose manager is looking to hang on to his job until the end of the season though, it may well work because it should at least shore things up. So I won't criticise Solskjaer for using it, just as I wouldn't criticise a new manager for turning up and deciding this is the best way to get by.
Agree with this. Hard to judge the formation until we see Pogba pinging passes to the free. WB on either side
Do we still need McFred in this formation or it was just because of the hammering we took last week. I think Pogba walks straight back into the team alongside McT and his creativity would be needed.
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Judging from Ole’s comments here this formation is here to stay.
Not a fan of the formation and the resulting tumescent football. But will probably save Ole his job so looks like here to stay.
Death to Sancho
Yes make it stay. feck Sancho/Martial/Greenwood et al.
I'd rather win games then pander to these underperforming wingers.
I'd rather win games then pander to these underperforming wingers.
That’s because we were wearing belts and braces. Again, shoring up our defence by adding another body in there avoids the issue of how crap we were defensively with the same group of players. Instead of changing the players, Ole opted to keep the same personnel and throw in an extra body in there to help out. How does a back 5 help out squad that has so much talent upfront? We just spent £74 million on Sancho - does anyone see him getting a sniff in? Even if he does by some chance gets a few minutes , the formation does not suit him. What becomes of Greenwood, Martial and Pogba (when he gets back)?
Let’s face it, even though we won, today’s performance was dire and we ended up victors over a terrible Spurs side. Let’s see what happens next week against City…
How does Bruno fit in a 343 with 2 wingers?
I think this could work really well if we can partner Rice in midfield with Bruno. Offering a really solid midfielder along with the back 3 should allow us to use bruno in a deeper role and look to use Bruno’s long range passing. So much potential with this formation. It could be really exciting times ahead if we transition to this formation with the correct signings. Ie rice and a new RWB dropping AWB to right CB
All 3 of them are more suited to a front 3 in front of a back 5 anyway. Same with Rashford and Ronaldo. Not one of them are actual wingers or actual lone strikers. They're all wide forwards or inside forwards, or in Sancho's case an attacking creator. Someone who needs to play as part of a front 3 (whether it's a #10 and 2 strikers or 2 players off a striker like Tuchel does doesn't matter), none are suited playing as wingers in a 4-2-3-1.
Not how I saw it. Bruno did play more advanced then Fred but it was definitely
......Fred..........Bruno
..............McT
The quality of play isn't due to the formation but the instructions, Gasperini uses 3412/343 and no one can say that his teams play tumescent football. Now the question is whether Ole will use inside forwards and give a proper chance to the likes of Sancho and Rashford with either Cavani or Ronaldo, if he doesn't then he has to win big trophies because his 70 years old striking force isn't the near future of United and he could mess things up long term.
As the creative guy roaming behind the other 2 attackers, not really using wingers if he's there. If Conte were to take over, slight chance he could convert him to a midfielder but unlikely.
Agree with this. With some minor tweaks , we can actually make it work. Bring some pace upfront or bench Bruno for Sancho and suddenly we have plenty of options upfront. Piss easy for Conte to take over then
He doesn't but we shouldn't have to be fixed with starters.
Interesting. Probably for the best in the short term although it relegates Sancho to the DVB bin of questionable signings. I could see it being used more in the big games; playing teams that park the bus might be a problem.
Is there any place to see an average position chart? I'd be shocked if it didn't show as more of a 3-4-1-2 with Bruno the #10 clearly ahead of McTominay and Fred in midfield. I didn't see it as a traditional midfield 3 at all. Cavani's goal perfectly encapsulated what the formation was set out to do IMO.
So Bruno and Sancho can't play together? Rashford is half decent in a front 2. Martial and Greenwood also. But the Sancho outlay seems a little daft if we don't have a system to fit him into.
Maybe true but they'll have to get used to being on the bench a bit more since there is one less attacking spot. The biggest issue is Sancho really. I don't see him at his best in midfield or as a second striker. But tough, he can't say he hasn't been given chances on the wing.
Time will quickly tell if this is Ole's Van Gaal moment, of stumbling across the tactics for success.
Hope so, and hope it lasts longer than VG's 5 or 6 game spell before it disappeared again.
Hope so, and hope it lasts longer than VG's 5 or 6 game spell before it disappeared again.
Bruno was playing more on the right than center and Fred was more on the left than center. McT was the only one consistently in the middle.
It depends on how we play upfront. The front 3 was defending very narrow today which means it was easy for our midfield McFred to clean things up. Now if we use wide forwards like Sancho or Greenwood they will be asked to defend wide but then our midfield becomes an issue which means McFred will be tested more. If Pogba replaced one of them, we might have an issue.