Fair point but I think a run of games to build his confidence would get him going again.
4-2-3-1 needs to die
- Thread starter Rajma
- Start date
Thank you for this.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
Yeah any 4-3-3 would devolve into a 4-2-3-1 anyway. Pogba would stay close to the #9. 4-2-3-1 is fine. Pogba in the 2 isn’t. If you’d put another ball winner into his spot and move him behind Lukaku, it’d probably work. The 2 would win the ball back and recycle it to the attacking players, i.e how it should be done.
I really think McTominay needs to be a mainstay in this team. He gets stuck in, he wins the ball back, he doesn’t give the ball away (which is a hugely underrated part of playing that position) and he is positionally disciplined. You need that next to Matic. His legs, Matic’s nous.
I really think McTominay needs to be a mainstay in this team. He gets stuck in, he wins the ball back, he doesn’t give the ball away (which is a hugely underrated part of playing that position) and he is positionally disciplined. You need that next to Matic. His legs, Matic’s nous.
Today was supposed to be 4-3-3 but it was completely unbalanced as Pogba and Lingard are suited to the same role in the system and looked confused over who was supposed to be doing what.
I think it'll come to a head soon, either Jose relents and moves us to a permanent and balanced 4-3-3, or he fecks off and we get a manger more suited to the needs of the team, or Pogba fecks off and we get Jose a grafter CM so he can play his beloved 4 man square box at the base of the team and continue on with 4-2-3-1.
I think it'll come to a head soon, either Jose relents and moves us to a permanent and balanced 4-3-3, or he fecks off and we get a manger more suited to the needs of the team, or Pogba fecks off and we get Jose a grafter CM so he can play his beloved 4 man square box at the base of the team and continue on with 4-2-3-1.
Stick Carrick in a coaching role with McTominay and have him play regularly to boost his confidence and cement a place in the team.
Play him and Matic together with Pogba roaming in front of them and boom.
Play him and Matic together with Pogba roaming in front of them and boom.
Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
Earlier in the season against Swansea. We won 4-0. The position of Pogba and Matic is similar to how we played against Tottenham.
Maybe its because we played with Mata on the right, who helps recycle and keep possession. Coincidentally, we played with Mata last week and won 2-0. While against Tottenham and today we didnt and lost.
I do concur though that we probably need a proper double pivot with the likes of Matic, Herrera and McTominay. And play Pogba further forward.
It never worked imo, I never thought we were playing well during those 4-0, 4-1 wins, we were just lucky to score so many goals.
I am a fan of 433 and it would be fantastic for us. It would allow pogba to roam and with martial and sanchez on flanks , it would be joy to watch.
But this formation can also be great but for that we need mata on no10 position. Not lingard. We need playmaker, not player who will run around.
But this formation can also be great but for that we need mata on no10 position. Not lingard. We need playmaker, not player who will run around.
This explains everything. For me the solution is put McTominay next to Matic in the pivot and push Pogba forward in place of Lingard. It's quite simple really. I don't understand why Jose can't see this. We aren't playing a proper 4-2-3-1 with Pogba and Matic together so either we stick with this formation and he gets dropped or we push him forward and add an extra midfielder.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
IT REALLY NEEDS TO GO
That's interesting. Well, I guess as you said, maybe it is because Mata played on the right.Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
Earlier in the season against Swansea. We won 4-0. The position of Pogba and Matic is similar to how we played against Tottenham.
Maybe its because we played with Mata on the right, who helps recycle and keep possession. Coincidentally, we played with Mata last week and won 2-0. While against Tottenham and today we didnt and lost.
I do concur though that we probably need a proper double pivot with the likes of Matic, Herrera and McTominay. And play Pogba further forward.
Mata, although not someone to dribble with the ball, provides that balance from the right. He drifts inside and, as you said, helps us keep possession, which then allows Lingard to run off the ball.
Again, going back Spurs, it's very similar to how they use Eriksen. He will cut inside and keep possession/create, whilst Alli runs off the ball and Son keeps the width.
Going forward, if we're to stick to a 4231, we should probably stick to that format.
Dribbler - Someone on the left who can dribble at players
Runner - Someone who is prepared to run in behind the striker
Playmaker - Someone who is going to tuck inside and orchestrate play in the final third
LM - Sanchez/Martial
CAM - Pogba/Lingard
RM - Mata/Pereira
4-3-3
LF----CF----RF
--LCM---RCM
------CDM
LB-LCB-RCB-RB
Herrera to come into RCM spot and provide some much needed urgency to our play.
LF----CF----RF
--LCM---RCM
------CDM
LB-LCB-RCB-RB
Herrera to come into RCM spot and provide some much needed urgency to our play.
I can' wait for this season to be over. We don't seem to have much of w gameplay and are slow and ineffective which is very disappointing. We actually seemed to have more of a plan last season even with all the draws and immobile zlatan up top and won two cups. Can't see us winning anything this season. Hope jose will sit down and figure out what formation and tactics suit his players in summer because too spend the money we have and to be getting performances we are from the likes of Pogs and Rom is just embarrassing.
Yeah I agree with what you're saying. Ofcourse that can be changed according to circumstances, like if we need to break down the defence we can play both Sanchez and Martial from both flanks, and if we need to keep possesion and defend, the likes of Mata, Lingard get the nod. Pogba and Lingard have different styles of play, and play as a #10 very differently.
In terms of centre midfielders though, Matic and Herrera are simply not enough. Fellaini is probably gone, Carrick retires. So we need 1, maybe even 2 more. McTominay has to step up. I say we should look for a deep lying play maker in the Carrick/Alonso mould.
Keeping aside current form and looking for a balanced and talented team, I think the solution is quite straightforward:
Valencia----Smalling --Jones?----Shaw?
-------------------Matic------------------
----------Herrera-------Pogba----------
-----Mata---------Martial-------Sanchez
with Martial and Sanchez alternating.
Herrera and Mata have chemistry, we need Mata to recycle possession high up the pitch. Martial needs to improve his off-the-ball runs; if he does this system will deliver very well.
Valencia----Smalling --Jones?----Shaw?
-------------------Matic------------------
----------Herrera-------Pogba----------
-----Mata---------Martial-------Sanchez
with Martial and Sanchez alternating.
Herrera and Mata have chemistry, we need Mata to recycle possession high up the pitch. Martial needs to improve his off-the-ball runs; if he does this system will deliver very well.
It’s not the formation, it’s the coaching. If Sir Alex were still here we would’ve used these same players, played 442 (which means Pogba would’ve been still playing in a 2) and I don’t think anyone here would suggest we wouldn’t of beat Newcastle today.
I fully back Mourinho but this is his problem, not the players or formation.
I fully back Mourinho but this is his problem, not the players or formation.
Using the 4-2-3-1 there is an accumulation of players in the midfield, if there is no good game there it is easier for the other team to defend. In this system the Fullbacks are very important due to the defensive / offensive role that they must have.
In this system you should play with Winger ideally run to the final line and cross the ball, maybe that's why we see Alexis (right foot) as LW, but as things in midfield do not work Alexis must go down a lot and in the center, with that his vertigo is wasted as Winger.
-----
Martial---Lukaku---Alexis
Pogba----Matic-----Mata
X----Rojo----X----Valencia
----------DDG
----
I do not think we see formations type 3-5-2 (3-2-3-2)
_Alexis/Martial_____Lukaku/Rashford
Young______Pogba_____Mata/Lingard
_______Matic______Herrera
Shaw________Rojo______Valencia
____________DDG
In this system you should play with Winger ideally run to the final line and cross the ball, maybe that's why we see Alexis (right foot) as LW, but as things in midfield do not work Alexis must go down a lot and in the center, with that his vertigo is wasted as Winger.
-----
Martial---Lukaku---Alexis
Pogba----Matic-----Mata
X----Rojo----X----Valencia
----------DDG
----
I do not think we see formations type 3-5-2 (3-2-3-2)
_Alexis/Martial_____Lukaku/Rashford
Young______Pogba_____Mata/Lingard
_______Matic______Herrera
Shaw________Rojo______Valencia
____________DDG
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Ye, I mean that's the joy of it. We've got a few players who we can play in the front four positions if we want to change things up. Actually, apart from another right midfielder, I'd say we're pretty much set in that area, especially if we use Pogba as a 10.
Definitely agree with the midfield base.
Think, as you said, we need to be looking at a deep-lying playmaker like Carrick.
There's been a lot of talk of Jorginho of Napoli, who is supposed to be similar to Carrick. Reads the game well and can control the game from deep.
According to whoscored.com, he averages the most passes (95.6) in Europe.
Then if Fellaini leaves, we could do with an all rounder, with great defensive attributes. Someone in the mould of Khedira, Matuidi, Nainggolan, Vidal, etc.
Again, we've been heavily linked with Fred of Shakhtar Donetsk, who meant to be your all action midfielder. Same with Dendonker of Anderlecht and Fabinho of Monaco. So maybe one those those three to replace Fellaini if he goes.
Matic - Holding
Jorginho - Holding
Herrera - Box to box
Fellaini or New Midfielder - Box to box
McTominay - Box to Box
Excellent post.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
This is what I was alluding to in the Pogba performance thread @Raees
Exactly so surely you can see from that Pogba is such a bad fit for a 4231. Completely lacks the discipline for it or the desire to play there. So change the formation properly or bench him - simple as
I think Jose hasn't used him well, but I don't think he's 'shackled' him either.
Either way, he can clearly play better than what he did vs Newcastle/Spurs. He's shown it before. He doesn't need to be babysat. If so, that's another problem entirely.
Too much is emphasized on the formation and not the players IMHO. Whatever the formation, you cannot play Pogba/Lingard/Sanchez/Martial at the same time. They all tend to go central way too much.
Very true with Sanchez we need someone to hang the touchline on the other side to stretch the pla ala Sane. Balance is just all wrong with us:
How has he shown that he can be trusted in a two against quality? Agreed he can do better against likes of Newcastle but fundamentally hes a poor CM and one hundred percent is shackled by that role and needs to be babysat in that role. It is a problem so I can't see why so many are being blind and dumb to just say well he just needs to up his effort. It' clear as day that is not his position.
Obviously he should be doing lot better against Newcastle but against Spurs? It was a suicide set up.
Your conclusions are all wrong. You have the data and you completely misinterpret it. Look at where Dier and Dembele are on the pitch. They are positioned on the opponent's side of centre. "Why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic?" Wrong. The question is why is Matic so far behind Pogba? Matic is too deep. Sure, if you want to accommodate Matic and play someone that sits that deep, fine. That's not winning anything. This problem begins with a poorly constructed back 4. This issue will persist.
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Against Spurs, I agree. We were outnumbered in midfield. Was an impossible job.
I think Pogba should be doing fine against Newcastle regardless. Obviously against the better teams, he can't play in a two.
The problem with his Newcastle performance wasn't that he played bad though. Players can play bad. He just seemed to be disinterested and barely gave effort. If he was injured, then he is pardoned.
If we persist wirh this formation and Pogba he needs to be the 10.. it's that simple..
It's just a sequencing of numbers. At the end of the day the players on the field need to perform and the manager need to give them the right instructions and coaching.
You can play 5-3-2, 4-2-3-1 or whatever formation and yet end up playing 9 behind the ball and 1 up top against City.
You can play 5-3-2, 4-2-3-1 or whatever formation and yet end up playing 9 behind the ball and 1 up top against City.
Pretty sure he was injured in the warmup, so either he or the manager should've made the decision that he doesn't play.
4-2-3-1 isn't inherently bad. Playing Pogba as part of the 2 is. You have 2 DMs as the 2.
Scholes wasn't a DM. He ran the show from picking up the ball of the defence to opening up attacks.
There aren't simple solutions, i'm afraid, simply because managers might be willing to reshuffle the deck in terms of formation, but when it comes to the fundamentals of their approach, they're quite hesitant to make any alterations. We saw this with LvG already, the switch between the 4231, the diamond and the 352 was an attempt to create different relations among the players. It wasn't an attempt to do something different on the pitch, our gameplan was always the same and that's the main reason all these formations failed in the end. In a way, it's the same with each one of us at his work. We follow a successful formula and when cracks start to appear, we don't throw it away but we try to mend it with the hope/belief that it will bring the desired results once more.
It's not difficult to see why Mourinho wants to utilize Pogba in a deeper role in the midfield. During the first stages of the build-up phase, Mourinho's sides prefer to move the ball forward through the middle. The idea is that the more times you get runners on the ball between the opposition's lines with their defensive line back peddling, the more chances you'll get to carve them open. In order to achieve that, Mourinho desires mainly two things of his #8: Vertical movement (with and without the ball) and good positioning. The former serves the transition through the central channels and the latter is essential for covering the spaces just in front of the box. The former is usually about talent, the latter has to do with coaching and that's probably the reason why Mourinho insists on giving Pogba this particular role. Take a look at the players he's utilized there throughout his career: Maniche/Pedro Mendes, Essien (one of the cleverest footballers i've watched), Lampard, Ballack, Khedira, Zanetti (again, think of vertical movement) and Fabregas. Different players, in terms of skills and abilities but all of them also players who could take good care of the ball both in deeper and more advanced positions and positionally astute footballers too. It's not totally insane to think that Pogba has the potential to become the best in that position for Mourinho.
The problem here isn't just the fact that Pogba has been underperforming, the bigger issue is that any other player in the #8 position means that we have to deviate from our plan A and move toward a double pivot system which has been used by Mourinho as a secondary plan. And by secondary, i mean an ultra-defensive one. The clash between Chelsea and Inter back in 2010 springs to mind when Cambiasso/Motta were picked to play behind Sneijder with the instruction to keep tabs on Lampard and Ballack. In the end, it worked and Inter advanced to the next round with two wins against Ancelotti's goal-scoring machine with Sneijder being the difference maker of the tie. But... the double pivot formation didn't free him up. In fact, he had to play deeper than usual in the midfield, find little pockets of space in order to dictate and organize play. He didn't shy away from the midfield battle and he wasn't given a free roaming role. It was his utter brilliance and his positional discipline that helped Inter go through. Pogba needs to do the same wherever he is deployed in the midfield if he really wants to become one of the best midfielders in the world. Otherwise, he can compromise with playing second fiddle like he did at Juventus. In general, i agree with the notion that the #10 role suits him better right now but that doesn't mean that he must not get better himself.
A few other points: Firstly, the double-pivot system has been mentioned a lot since LvG was here and that my guess is because many fans still remember the glory of the Fergie days. It's not the same. The Carrick/Scholes partnership worked because Ferguson always targeted the wide areas to move the ball forward. That's not Jose's cup of tea.
Secondly, the 433 (point backwards) doesn't free up anyone. The two central midfielders have to cover (which translates to "defending" without the ball and we do a lot of that with Mou's tactics) the channels in the half-spaces which are the areas most managers target in modern football in order to create chances. The 433 is prefered mostly by teams that press high and play a more possession-based style of football. And in any other case, it's not used to free up a player. It works at Madrid because Modric/Kroos are tactically excellent and create the conditions for good wide play and not because one of them has the licence to go wherever he wants on the pitch.
Our main problem is the lack of a stable back-four line that will inspire confidence into the rest of the team, the lack of balance in the #8 position (with Pogba we leave a lot of spaces between our lines exposed, with other options we struggle to get the ball further up the pitch) and the lack of any creativity from the full-backs.
It's not difficult to see why Mourinho wants to utilize Pogba in a deeper role in the midfield. During the first stages of the build-up phase, Mourinho's sides prefer to move the ball forward through the middle. The idea is that the more times you get runners on the ball between the opposition's lines with their defensive line back peddling, the more chances you'll get to carve them open. In order to achieve that, Mourinho desires mainly two things of his #8: Vertical movement (with and without the ball) and good positioning. The former serves the transition through the central channels and the latter is essential for covering the spaces just in front of the box. The former is usually about talent, the latter has to do with coaching and that's probably the reason why Mourinho insists on giving Pogba this particular role. Take a look at the players he's utilized there throughout his career: Maniche/Pedro Mendes, Essien (one of the cleverest footballers i've watched), Lampard, Ballack, Khedira, Zanetti (again, think of vertical movement) and Fabregas. Different players, in terms of skills and abilities but all of them also players who could take good care of the ball both in deeper and more advanced positions and positionally astute footballers too. It's not totally insane to think that Pogba has the potential to become the best in that position for Mourinho.
The problem here isn't just the fact that Pogba has been underperforming, the bigger issue is that any other player in the #8 position means that we have to deviate from our plan A and move toward a double pivot system which has been used by Mourinho as a secondary plan. And by secondary, i mean an ultra-defensive one. The clash between Chelsea and Inter back in 2010 springs to mind when Cambiasso/Motta were picked to play behind Sneijder with the instruction to keep tabs on Lampard and Ballack. In the end, it worked and Inter advanced to the next round with two wins against Ancelotti's goal-scoring machine with Sneijder being the difference maker of the tie. But... the double pivot formation didn't free him up. In fact, he had to play deeper than usual in the midfield, find little pockets of space in order to dictate and organize play. He didn't shy away from the midfield battle and he wasn't given a free roaming role. It was his utter brilliance and his positional discipline that helped Inter go through. Pogba needs to do the same wherever he is deployed in the midfield if he really wants to become one of the best midfielders in the world. Otherwise, he can compromise with playing second fiddle like he did at Juventus. In general, i agree with the notion that the #10 role suits him better right now but that doesn't mean that he must not get better himself.
A few other points: Firstly, the double-pivot system has been mentioned a lot since LvG was here and that my guess is because many fans still remember the glory of the Fergie days. It's not the same. The Carrick/Scholes partnership worked because Ferguson always targeted the wide areas to move the ball forward. That's not Jose's cup of tea.
Secondly, the 433 (point backwards) doesn't free up anyone. The two central midfielders have to cover (which translates to "defending" without the ball and we do a lot of that with Mou's tactics) the channels in the half-spaces which are the areas most managers target in modern football in order to create chances. The 433 is prefered mostly by teams that press high and play a more possession-based style of football. And in any other case, it's not used to free up a player. It works at Madrid because Modric/Kroos are tactically excellent and create the conditions for good wide play and not because one of them has the licence to go wherever he wants on the pitch.
Our main problem is the lack of a stable back-four line that will inspire confidence into the rest of the team, the lack of balance in the #8 position (with Pogba we leave a lot of spaces between our lines exposed, with other options we struggle to get the ball further up the pitch) and the lack of any creativity from the full-backs.
This issue is exactly the opposite side of the coin. Either Matic's positioning is wrong or Pogba's, so the only person to fix and correct this is Mou, who I am absolutely sure is giving instructions to Matic and Pogba. The system is disfunctioning, and it all has to do with our manager. I am sure we have enough quality in the squad to be doing better. And, again, we are out of title race before mid-season for two years under Jose and this is a trend now. Should be doing much much better.
But Paul Scholes was a legendary midfielder. And he played a lot of his career alongside another legend in Keane. Also teams were afraid of what we could do then, they aren't now. That made it inherently easier all round.
Personally I don't believe Pogba has the skillset or mindset to play in a 2, nor is he best suited to it. We should play a 3 so he has license to roam.
Those positioning stats posted above don't explain anything. It's just an average positioning stat. It doesn't show the most important part of how the system works in game. What really matters is how the players are moving in relation to each other. It doesn't show our players positioning awareness without the ball, which is key.
Pogba's job is to carry the ball forward through the middle. Just because he happens to find himself further up the pitch at times doesn't mean he should get lost positionally on defense. I get what Mourinho is trying to do with Pogba but I'm not sure he is capable of it.
The fullbacks are often forgotten in this discussion, but they are crucial in this system, since Mourinho wants to pack the central areas and play really narrow. Creativity and interaction between the wide men and fullbacks is pretty average and quality crossing is something we badly need from those areas as well.
People keep saying we have so much quality in attack but that's just overrating our players imo. Valencia, Young, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard and Lukaku is basically our attack. Other than Lukaku, none of those names inspire any confidence. I'm sure we'll see a more fluent attack if we surround Pogba with more ball playing, tecnical, creative players in some of these positions, and Sanchez is a great way to start.
Different formations aren't gonna change anything if we don't adress some of these issues, since Mourinho will still fundamentally want to play the same way.
Pogba's job is to carry the ball forward through the middle. Just because he happens to find himself further up the pitch at times doesn't mean he should get lost positionally on defense. I get what Mourinho is trying to do with Pogba but I'm not sure he is capable of it.
The fullbacks are often forgotten in this discussion, but they are crucial in this system, since Mourinho wants to pack the central areas and play really narrow. Creativity and interaction between the wide men and fullbacks is pretty average and quality crossing is something we badly need from those areas as well.
People keep saying we have so much quality in attack but that's just overrating our players imo. Valencia, Young, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard and Lukaku is basically our attack. Other than Lukaku, none of those names inspire any confidence. I'm sure we'll see a more fluent attack if we surround Pogba with more ball playing, tecnical, creative players in some of these positions, and Sanchez is a great way to start.
Different formations aren't gonna change anything if we don't adress some of these issues, since Mourinho will still fundamentally want to play the same way.
I agree with your point about the full backs. I think that some players are slightly overated from wide areas i.e. can't cross the ball well enough and beat the first man on a corner. I do think this formation is a concern. Playing 3 Central midfielders with pogba on the left gives more balance in starting play from the back, it gives the two CB's more options for an easier pass. Smalling is so nervous, he usually can't see the pass so blasts it up to nobody in the current one formation. Ain't making an excuse for him because he's useless but it's a factor, in keeping the ball and the shape. It gives much more defensive structure and control in the middle of the park. When we are attacking outside there box and lose the ball, we look so open. Pogba hasn't got the defensive discipline and poor Matic looks so exposed on the counter attack.
I do agree that when all players are doing there job well, formations don't seem to be as important but too many aren't. The full back's aren't overlapping and delivering better ball's in. Lukaku playing too deep and the wingers are cutting inside making us too narrow. While the chuckle brother's at the back are a bag of nerves. Playing Martial on the left is huge, he cuts in better and is more clinical. Sanchez is good enough to play in any of the forward positions. It looks glaringly obvious away at Spurs and Newcastle that we have no control in the middle of the park.
I am so glad someone finally remembers. Even at Juve, Pogba played further back a few times and did so brilliantly. He has had many superb games for us playing further back in the 4-2-3-1. Not saying it is his best position but I get baffled when he plays crap and people insist it is because of the formation. Let's be honest, Pogba seriously needs to step up his game to that next level where he can play incredibly well consistently and in any formation. Formation has nothing to do with not doing the basics of football right. You have a team player free on either side and you decide to blast the ball way over the bar, what the h**k does that have to do with formation? Or you stroll casually on the pitch or ball watch or mispass, or fail to track an opposition player or fail to jump to block a header. What do they have to do with formation? I struggle to get it. For me, I only start talking formation for players when they are doing the basics right.Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
Earlier in the season against Swansea. We won 4-0. The position of Pogba and Matic is similar to how we played against Tottenham.
Maybe its because we played with Mata on the right, who helps recycle and keep possession. Coincidentally, we played with Mata last week and won 2-0. While against Tottenham and today we didnt and lost.
I do concur though that we probably need a proper double pivot with the likes of Matic, Herrera and McTominay. And play Pogba further forward.
And on the 4-2-3-1, I see no reason why we can't play it. Jose has a decent win rate at United and he has mostly used the 4-2-3-1. It is now the preferred formation among many elite teams in Europe. Poch has used it well, Klopp has used it well, even Pep has used it well. For us, the primary problem has not been the formation. It has been personnel IMO. Jose needs to work with the players to develop a winning mentality and to be better at retaining the ball. We don't keep the ball well when we have it. We hoof it too much. We don't manage game time well. We often waste the first 45 minutes. He will of course need to get some new players who are good with the ball at their feet especially in defence and midfield. If your plays play rubbish, it won'tbmatter if you play 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 or 9-1-1
Can we have some heat maps for the games Pogba has started from the Everton game? I suspect what we'll find is that despite people blaming everything on 4231, Pogba's position since that game has been on the left of a midfield 3 with Lingard on the right.