Turkleton
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- Jan 3, 2016
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- 243
Fair point but I think a run of games to build his confidence would get him going again.
Thank you for this.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
Agreed.Yeah any 4-3-3 would devolve into a 4-2-3-1 anyway. Pogba would stay close to the #9. 4-2-3-1 is fine. Pogba in the 2 isn’t. If you’d put another ball winner into his spot and move him behind Lukaku, it’d probably work. The 2 would win the ball back and recycle it to the attacking players, i.e how it should be done.
I really think McTominay needs to be a mainstay in this team. He gets stuck in, he wins the ball back, he doesn’t give the ball away (which is a hugely underrated part of playing that position) and he is positionally disciplined. You need that next to Matic. His legs, Matic’s nous.
No problem.Thank you for this.
Good post.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
It never worked imo, I never thought we were playing well during those 4-0, 4-1 wins, we were just lucky to score so many goals.Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
This explains everything. For me the solution is put McTominay next to Matic in the pivot and push Pogba forward in place of Lingard. It's quite simple really. I don't understand why Jose can't see this. We aren't playing a proper 4-2-3-1 with Pogba and Matic together so either we stick with this formation and he gets dropped or we push him forward and add an extra midfielder.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
That's interesting. Well, I guess as you said, maybe it is because Mata played on the right.Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
Earlier in the season against Swansea. We won 4-0. The position of Pogba and Matic is similar to how we played against Tottenham.
Maybe its because we played with Mata on the right, who helps recycle and keep possession. Coincidentally, we played with Mata last week and won 2-0. While against Tottenham and today we didnt and lost.
I do concur though that we probably need a proper double pivot with the likes of Matic, Herrera and McTominay. And play Pogba further forward.
Yeah I agree with what you're saying. Ofcourse that can be changed according to circumstances, like if we need to break down the defence we can play both Sanchez and Martial from both flanks, and if we need to keep possesion and defend, the likes of Mata, Lingard get the nod. Pogba and Lingard have different styles of play, and play as a #10 very differently.That's interesting. Well, I guess as you said, maybe it is because Mata played on the right.
Mata, although not someone to dribble with the ball, provides that balance from the right. He drifts inside and, as you said, helps us keep possession, which then allows Lingard to run off the ball.
Again, going back Spurs, it's very similar to how they use Eriksen. He will cut inside and keep possession/create, whilst Alli runs off the ball and Son keeps the width.
Going forward, if we're to stick to a 4231, we should probably stick to that format.
Dribbler - Someone on the left who can dribble at players
Runner - Someone who is prepared to run in behind the striker
Playmaker - Someone who is going to tuck inside and orchestrate play in the final third
LM - Sanchez/Martial
CAM - Pogba/Lingard
RM - Mata/Pereira
Ye, I mean that's the joy of it. We've got a few players who we can play in the front four positions if we want to change things up. Actually, apart from another right midfielder, I'd say we're pretty much set in that area, especially if we use Pogba as a 10.Yeah I agree with what you're saying. Ofcourse that can be changed according to circumstances, like if we need to break down the defence we can play both Sanchez and Martial from both flanks, and if we need to keep possesion and defend, the likes of Mata, Lingard get the nod. Pogba and Lingard have different styles of play, and play as a #10 very differently.
In terms of centre midfielders though, Matic and Herrera are simply not enough. Fellaini is probably gone, Carrick retires. So we need 1, maybe even 2 more. McTominay has to step up. I say we should look for a deep lying play maker in the Carrick/Alonso mould.
Excellent post.To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
Exactly so surely you can see from that Pogba is such a bad fit for a 4231. Completely lacks the discipline for it or the desire to play there. So change the formation properly or bench him - simple as
I think Jose hasn't used him well, but I don't think he's 'shackled' him either.Exactly so surely you can see from that Pogba is such a bad fit for a 4231. Completely lacks the discipline for it or the desire to play there. So change the formation properly or bench him - simple as
Very true with Sanchez we need someone to hang the touchline on the other side to stretch the pla ala Sane. Balance is just all wrong with us:Too much is emphasized on the formation and not the players IMHO. Whatever the formation, you cannot play Pogba/Lingard/Sanchez/Martial at the same time. They all tend to go central way too much.
How has he shown that he can be trusted in a two against quality? Agreed he can do better against likes of Newcastle but fundamentally hes a poor CM and one hundred percent is shackled by that role and needs to be babysat in that role. It is a problem so I can't see why so many are being blind and dumb to just say well he just needs to up his effort. It' clear as day that is not his position.I think Jose hasn't used him well, but I don't think he's 'shackled' him either.
Either way, he can clearly play better than what he did vs Newcastle/Spurs. He's shown it before. He doesn't need to be babysat. If so, that's another problem entirely.
Obviously he should be doing lot better against Newcastle but against Spurs? It was a suicide set up.I think Jose hasn't used him well, but I don't think he's 'shackled' him either.
Either way, he can clearly play better than what he did vs Newcastle/Spurs. He's shown it before. He doesn't need to be babysat. If so, that's another problem entirely.
To be fair, if we want to be technical, then it'd be more a 4411 than a 4231.
A 4231 requires two defensive midfielders to sit in front of the back four, break up play and simply distribute the ball to attacking quartet and full backs.
Against Huddersfield, it was a proper 4231. As you can see from the image below (orange), we have Matic (31) and McTominay (39) more or less side to side. Always had the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 holding mids). Then you have your high full backs and your roaming three behind the striker.
Vs Huddersfield
Today; however, looking at the image below in blue, you can see the distinct difference in positions taken up compared to Pogba (6) and McTominay's in the above image.
Matic, as you can see, is the only holding midfielder, whereas Pogba is slightly behind Lingard. Now, that's neither a 4231, nor is it quite a 433.
Vs Newcastle
Now, my question is, why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic? Has Mourinho asked him to play like that or is Pogba, despite being dropped last week, doing his own thing?
Look at McTominay against Huddersfield. Despite being at home against a team, where you'd expect us to dominate - which we did, he was still pretty deep, according to players average positions. Whereas, Pogba today, despite being away to Newcastle, was a lot higher up. It doesn't quite add up. If anything, it should be the opposite.
To me, it must be Pogba doing his own thing, and if that's the case, then he has to be dropped, or not played as a 6, because it's hurting our team shape and structure.
If Jose wants to play a proper 4231, then he needs to look at the way Pochettino plays it.
This is not me saying Poch is a better manager, but he plays a 4231 fantastically, in my opinion.
Below are images against us (United) and Arsenal that show the average positions.
Vs Man United (Spurs in orange)
Vs Arsenal (Spurs in orange)
As you can see, Dembele and Dier are always in tandem with each other. Superbly positioned. That's how a double pivot should be played. Constantly got the box of four (2 centre backs + 2 defensive midfielders) to stop any potential counters.
Then you can see the full backs are either always at least level, or above their defensive midfielders, then you have your attacking four.
As I've said before, Jose needs to sort out what he actually wants to do, because at the moment, the structure of our team is all over the place. Not only can you see that on the pitch, but the images suggests the same thing too.
Your conclusions are all wrong. You have the data and you completely misinterpret it. Look at where Dier and Dembele are on the pitch. They are positioned on the opponent's side of centre. "Why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic?" Wrong. The question is why is Matic so far behind Pogba? Matic is too deep. Sure, if you want to accommodate Matic and play someone that sits that deep, fine. That's not winning anything. This problem begins with a poorly constructed back 4. This issue will persist.Thank you for this.
Against Spurs, I agree. We were outnumbered in midfield. Was an impossible job.Obviously he should be doing lot better against Newcastle but against Spurs? It was a suicide set up.
I think Pogba should be doing fine against Newcastle regardless. Obviously against the better teams, he can't play in a two.How has he shown that he can be trusted in a two against quality? Agreed he can do better against likes of Newcastle but fundamentally hes a poor CM and one hundred percent is shackled by that role and needs to be babysat in that role. It is a problem so I can't see why so many are being blind and dumb to just say well he just needs to up his effort. It' clear as day that is not his position.
Pretty sure he was injured in the warmup, so either he or the manager should've made the decision that he doesn't play.I think Pogba should be doing fine against Newcastle regardless. Obviously against the better teams, he can't play in a two.
The problem with his Newcastle performance wasn't that he played bad though. Players can play bad. He just seemed to be disinterested and barely gave effort. If he was injured, then he is pardoned.
Scholes wasn't a DM. He ran the show from picking up the ball of the defence to opening up attacks.Pretty sure he was injured in the warmup, so either he or the manager should've made the decision that he doesn't play.
4-2-3-1 isn't inherently bad. Playing Pogba as part of the 2 is. You have 2 DMs as the 2.
This issue is exactly the opposite side of the coin. Either Matic's positioning is wrong or Pogba's, so the only person to fix and correct this is Mou, who I am absolutely sure is giving instructions to Matic and Pogba. The system is disfunctioning, and it all has to do with our manager. I am sure we have enough quality in the squad to be doing better. And, again, we are out of title race before mid-season for two years under Jose and this is a trend now. Should be doing much much better.Your conclusions are all wrong. You have the data and you completely misinterpret it. Look at where Dier and Dembele are on the pitch. They are positioned on the opponent's side of centre. "Why is Pogba so far ahead of Matic?" Wrong. The question is why is Matic so far behind Pogba? Matic is too deep. Sure, if you want to accommodate Matic and play someone that sits that deep, fine. That's not winning anything. This problem begins with a poorly constructed back 4. This issue will persist.
But Paul Scholes was a legendary midfielder. And he played a lot of his career alongside another legend in Keane. Also teams were afraid of what we could do then, they aren't now. That made it inherently easier all round.Scholes wasn't a DM. He ran the show from picking up the ball of the defence to opening up attacks.
I agree with your point about the full backs. I think that some players are slightly overated from wide areas i.e. can't cross the ball well enough and beat the first man on a corner. I do think this formation is a concern. Playing 3 Central midfielders with pogba on the left gives more balance in starting play from the back, it gives the two CB's more options for an easier pass. Smalling is so nervous, he usually can't see the pass so blasts it up to nobody in the current one formation. Ain't making an excuse for him because he's useless but it's a factor, in keeping the ball and the shape. It gives much more defensive structure and control in the middle of the park. When we are attacking outside there box and lose the ball, we look so open. Pogba hasn't got the defensive discipline and poor Matic looks so exposed on the counter attack.Those positioning stats posted above don't explain anything. It's just an average positioning stat. It doesn't show the most important part of how the system works in game. What really matters is how the players are moving in relation to each other. It doesn't show our players positioning awareness without the ball, which is key.
Pogba's job is to carry the ball forward through the middle. Just because he happens to find himself further up the pitch at times doesn't mean he should get lost positionally on defense. I get what Mourinho is trying to do with Pogba but I'm not sure he is capable of it.
The fullbacks are often forgotten in this discussion, but they are crucial in this system, since Mourinho wants to pack the central areas and play really narrow. Creativity and interaction between the wide men and fullbacks is pretty average and quality crossing is something we badly need from those areas as well.
People keep saying we have so much quality in attack but that's just overrating our players imo. Valencia, Young, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard and Lukaku is basically our attack. Other than Lukaku, none of those names inspire any confidence. I'm sure we'll see a more fluent attack if we surround Pogba with more ball playing, tecnical, creative players in some of these positions, and Sanchez is a great way to start.
Different formations aren't gonna change anything if we don't adress some of these issues, since Mourinho will still fundamentally want to play the same way.
I am so glad someone finally remembers. Even at Juve, Pogba played further back a few times and did so brilliantly. He has had many superb games for us playing further back in the 4-2-3-1. Not saying it is his best position but I get baffled when he plays crap and people insist it is because of the formation. Let's be honest, Pogba seriously needs to step up his game to that next level where he can play incredibly well consistently and in any formation. Formation has nothing to do with not doing the basics of football right. You have a team player free on either side and you decide to blast the ball way over the bar, what the h**k does that have to do with formation? Or you stroll casually on the pitch or ball watch or mispass, or fail to track an opposition player or fail to jump to block a header. What do they have to do with formation? I struggle to get it. For me, I only start talking formation for players when they are doing the basics right.Good post.
I've wondered though. Remember those early 4-0 and 4-1 wins in the season? I checked and...surprisingly in nearly all of them we played a double pivot of Pogba and Matic, with Mkhitaryan as AM.
So earlier those 2 in midfield worked. Now they are not working.
Earlier in the season against Swansea. We won 4-0. The position of Pogba and Matic is similar to how we played against Tottenham.
Maybe its because we played with Mata on the right, who helps recycle and keep possession. Coincidentally, we played with Mata last week and won 2-0. While against Tottenham and today we didnt and lost.
I do concur though that we probably need a proper double pivot with the likes of Matic, Herrera and McTominay. And play Pogba further forward.