40s Retro Football Fantasy Draft | Finished

Gio

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Any surprising reinforcements? I thought EAP/NM might have gone for Moore and Chester for Jairzinho. Not that the likes of Carlos Alberto and Marzolini aren't final worthy players of course.
 

Gol123

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Cruyff with Florian Albert already in the team. Interesting pick there.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Joga Bonito said:
I knew I would face question marks about picking him for 'just reuniting him' with der Kaiser, but didn't expect that from you. Now I wouldn't want anyone ahead of Beckenbauer, either as an individual or for my team, which has a particular style. Now that that's out of the way, who can ideally partner him? Just have a peek at the defenders picked around him and you would have an idea...
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You obviously misread my post.

Schwarzenbeck ON HIS OWN isn't final worthy, IMO. The combo is a completely different deal. I agree 100% that you'll be hard pushed to find anyone else in this draft better suited to partner Beckenbauer.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Gio said:
Any surprising reinforcements? I thought EAP/NM might have gone for Moore and Chester for Jairzinho. Not that the likes of Carlos Alberto and Marzolini aren't final worthy players of course.
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I'm not a huge fan of Jairzinho, to be honest. But given that I've got that other bloke - yes, I certainly could've gone for him, especially since he's easy to sell on here per default (and would've been even easier to sell alongside Viagra Boy).

But I needed to bolster the middle of the park more than anything, given that I in all likelihood will be sticking with roughly the same formation.

Second pick was more a question of availability than anything - who was there to pick? I don't feel I desperately need a better LB than Cooper at this stage, but Marzolini is an upgrade on almost anyone and, as you say, final worthy.
 

Joga Bonito

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Chesterlestreet said:
You obviously misread my post.

Schwarzenbeck ON HIS OWN isn't final worthy, IMO. The combo is a completely different deal. I agree 100% that you'll be hard pushed to find anyone else in this draft better suited to partner Beckenbauer.
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Fair enough then. Still, I'd go as far as to say most teams could have done with him given the prevalence of liberos and adventurous ball playing centre-backs. In the context of this draft, he is final worthy as a stopper with or without Beckenbauer imo.
 

Balu

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Chesterlestreet said:
You obviously misread my post.

Schwarzenbeck ON HIS OWN isn't final worthy, IMO. The combo is a completely different deal. I agree 100% that you'll be hard pushed to find anyone else in this draft better suited to partner Beckenbauer.
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I think that's what he disagreed with. You can easily argue that Schwarzenbeck is individually the best stopper in the draft and that he's the best possible partner for Figueroa and Moore as well, because partnering the best central defenders in this draft with each other always looks a bit unbalanced. All of them are more libero-ish or at least ballplaying defenders who look much better with a covering centerback next to them.
 

Gol123

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Chesterlestreet said:
I'm not a huge fan of Jairzinho, to be honest. But given that I've got that other bloke - yes, I certainly could've gone for him, especially since he's easy to sell on here per default (and would've been even easier to sell alongside Viagra Boy).

But I needed to bolster the middle of the park more than anything, given that I in all likelihood will be sticking with roughly the same formation.

Second pick was more a question of availability than anything - who was there to pick? I don't feel I desperately need a better LB than Cooper at this stage, but Marzolini is an upgrade on almost anyone and, as you say, final worthy.
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Jairzinho would be a bit wasted in your team. You have Greaves and Pele to finish off attacks, Jairzinho would just get in the way a bit.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Joga Bonito said:
Fair enough then. Still, I'd go as far as to say most teams could have done with him given the prevalence of liberos and adventurous ball playing centre-backs. In the context of this draft, he is final worthy as a stopper with or without Beckenbauer imo.
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Yeah, well - perhaps.

I'd put it like this, though: There may not be any stopper in the pool who is significantly better than him, but then again there are multiple stoppers in the pool on which he would not be a significant upgrade. In other words, if you have Beckenbauer he's very attractive as an upgrade - if you don't have Beckenbauer, chances are you're better off upgrading other positions.

Again, just my opinion.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Gol123 said:
Jairzinho would be a bit wasted in your team. You have Greaves and Pele to finish off attacks, Jairzinho would just get in the way a bit.
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In a sense, he could - I agree. He didn't get in the way in '70, of course, but even though one could argue that Pelé's role for me should be something similar to his '70 one, the rest of the team is not (nor is it in any way supposed to be - if it's modeled on anything it definitely is not Brazil '70).
 

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Joga Bonito said:
Chumpitaz - Libero and not the ideal physical partner for Beckenbauer
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That's true, however let's not paint Chumpitaz as another Ronald Koeman, he wasn't dominated easily physically, and few had better command of the defensive area than the perfect exponent of classic South American defending, which includes the likes of Figueroa and Passarella.

 

Joga Bonito

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Chesterlestreet said:
Yeah, well - perhaps.

I'd put it like this, though: There may not be any stopper in the pool who is significantly better than him, but then again there are multiple stoppers in the pool on which he would not be a significant upgrade. In other words, if you have Beckenbauer he's very attractive as an upgrade - if you don't have Beckenbauer, chances are you're better off upgrading other positions.

Again, just my opinion.
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It isn't just about his individual quality or him being the best stopper in the draft, but also his pedigree as a covering defender, dovetailing beautifully with a libero and being a great foil, at the highest of levels. How many quality centre-backs or stoppers at or thereabouts of the level of Schwarzebeck in this draft (laden with liberos & ball playing centre-backs) have that synergy and proven ability at the highest of levels? As Balu himself aptly said he would be the best possible partner for just about most of the best central defenders in this draft.

Once again, it is not a matter of individual quality, where you are right in that you would be better off upgrading other positions, but rather his compatibility in that role which criminally gets overlooked.

Balu said:
I think that's what he disagreed with. You can easily argue that Schwarzenbeck is individually the best stopper in the draft and that he's the best possible partner for Figueroa and Moore as well, because partnering the best central defenders in this draft with each other always looks a bit unbalanced. All of them are more libero-ish or at least ballplaying defenders who look much better with a covering centerback next to them.
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You made a great post on the central defensive duo's compatibility and the frequently overlooked aspect of the lesser water-carrier role in the partnership.

Balu said:
I really would like something like that in one of the drafts. I think too many complementary partnerships are ignored for bigger names. I picked Schwarzenbeck for example, just in case Beckenbauer becomes available in the next round and would have played them as a centerback pair till the end. Yet most would probably expect that I have to upgrade Schwarzenbeck at one point, which makes no sense to me. Figueroa + Beckenbauer isn't better, especially not with brilliant midfielders ahead of them. You still need one of them to cover and only one can do his thing and I don't know if Beckenbauer or Figueroa is better at that covering centerback job than Schwarzenbeck, neither of them ever played that role.

I wrote a huge love letter to Beckenbauer earlier in this draft, which completely confused Theon. It could all be summed up with 'put him to work as much as possible to get the best out of him'. In so many teams, those all time greats get so much protection and help, that they actually become replaceable, it's weird. Put them to work, guys. They excelled without protection or without a back-up creative plan, that's what made them great.

Also Theon picked way too soon Kohler to have the perfect partner, when he could easily picked Schwarzenbeck (same restrictions) as a 9th/10th pick. No one except me as a sub at the end was interested and next to Beckenbauer he's just as good as Kohler, if not better. I love those things, because if someone reunites such a partnership, the less famous name gets finally the credit he deserves.

There are a few exceptions in the history of the game. For example, Pele in '70 was all about connecting others, that made that performance so special. If you pick him, then you can surround him with a crazy number of playmakers. If you have Cruyff or Maradona, you want them to do more. They aren't there to share or to connect, they need to dictate everything. So you don't pair them up with other all time great playmakers.

So yeah, I'm all for a draft that would force people to look at those complementary partnerships, because then all those all time great watercarriers would get the credit they deserve instead of being called a weakness, which they clearly aren't, quite the opposite actually.

/edit:
I hope that doesn't sound too negative towards Theon, if it does, sorry, wasn't meant that way. Those are just the examples that concerned me and my plans here, you can easily find those examples in all teams in all fantasy drafts.
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Chesterlestreet

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Joga Bonito said:
It isn't about him being the best stopper in the draft but also his pedigree as a covering defender, dovetailing beautifully with a libero and being a great foil for the libero, at the highest of levels. .
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Depends on whether you're playing with an actual libero, then, if you're going to use that specific argument. An actual Beckenbauer style player who frequently pushes up and needs someone to cover his arse in his absence - because THAT was mainly what Schwarzenbeck did so reliably, and to a degree nobody can match here in terms of being "proven" at it.

Most smooth and ball playing central defenders aren't actual, Beckenbauer style liberos who leave their post at the back as part of the game plan.
 
Final Teams pre quarters

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Aldo 1. Best 2. Chumpitaz 3. Pirri 4. Israel 5. Ademir da Guia 6. Boninsegna 7. Furino 8. Prati 9. Stepney 10. Lawler 11. F. Cruz 12. Sala 13. Rivelino 14. Vogts
Chesterlestreet 1. Pelé 2. Greaves 3. Bremner 4. Corso 5. E. Hughes 6. Lorimer 7. Muntyan 8. Smith 9. Cooper 10. Pivarnik 11. Clemence 12. England 13. Jansen 14. Marzolini
Invictus 1. Eusébio 2. Mazzola 3. Haan 4. Suurbier 5. Perfumo 6. Weber 7. Bonev 8. Bransch 9. Carpegiani 10. Viktor 11. Rildo 12. Fazekas 13. Van Hanegem 14. Jairzinho
Gio/Theon 1. Figueroa 2. Cubillas 3. Deyna 4. Clodoaldo 5. Bulgarelli 6. Rocha 7. Ancheta 8. Mazurkiewicz 9. Asparuhov 10. Shalamanov 11. Anczok 12. Meroni 13. Moore 14. Gerson
NM/EAP 1. Facchetti 2. Riva 3. Jair 4. Stiles 5. Luis Pereira 6. Martin Peters 7. Bosquier 8. Yakimov 9. De Sisti 10. Anquilletti 11. Rudakov 12. Valdes 13. C. Alberto 14. Keizer
harms 1. Krol 2. Florian Albert 3. Van Himst 4. Roth 5. Blankenburg 6. Lennox 7. Dzodzuashvili 8. G. Mühren 9. Bedin 10. Kaplychnyi 11. van Beveren 12. Penev 13. Cruyff 14. Johnstone
Tuppet 1. Rivera 2. Džajić 3. Shesternyov 4. Causio 5. Lubański 6. Piazza 7. Bo Larsson 8. Lovchev 9. Fazlagic 10. Julio Meléndez Calderón 11. Leao 12. Sotil 13. Muller 14. Benetti
Joga Bonito 1. Law 2. Netzer 3. A.Ball 4. Wimmer 5. Gadocha 6. Greig 7. Byshovets 8. Sieloff 9. Reaney 10. Kapellmann 11. Nigbur 12. Madeley 13. Beckenbauer 14. Schwarzenbeck

@Aldo
 

Joga Bonito

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Chesterlestreet said:
Depends on whether you're playing with an actual libero, then, if you're going to use that specific argument. An actual Beckenbauer style player who frequently pushes up and needs someone to cover his arse in his absence - because THAT was mainly what Schwarzenbeck did so reliably, and to a degree nobody can match here in terms of being "proven" at it.

Most smooth and ball playing central defenders aren't actual, Beckenbauer style liberos who leave their post at the back as part of the game plan.
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Well, the best ones in this draft - Chumpitaz, Figueroa, Olsen, Moore, Krol most certainly were players who loved to carry the ball forward (obviously not to the extent of Beckenbauer) and played significant roles in the build-up play.
 

Theon

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Not sure what Chester has said wrong there as it seems perfectly clear what he means.

Schwarzenbeck is a good player but it's clearly partnering with Beckenbauer that elevates him in these drafts.

Also I don't think he's a better partner than Figueroa, as I don't think there's really anything at all that Schwarzenbeck does better.
 

Gol123

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Stoppers are underrated a bit in football. I cant think of any truly GOAT stoppers in the game.
 

Theon

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Gol123 said:
Stoppers are underrated a bit in football. I cant think of any truly GOAT stoppers in the game.
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I don't think it's a useful split personally.

What would you class Nesta as? He was an elegant footballer and most people wouldn't class him as a stopper, but he was fantastic at those aspects defensively.

Similar to Figueroa in that sense.
 

Gol123

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Theon said:
I don't think it's a useful split personally.

What would you class Nesta as? He was an elegant footballer and most people wouldn't class him as a stopper, but he was fantastic at those aspects defensively.

Similar to Figueroa in that sense.
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They are both ball playing really. Generally most of the best lean towards being better ball players. I can't really think of a GOAT CB who was more of a stopper.

Just because defenders are so great that they can do everything to a very high level, doesn't mean they were not classified as one or the other.
 

Balu

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Gol123 said:
I can't really think of a GOAT CB who was more of a stopper.
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Kohler ? He usually stands out between the stoppers. From the mid 90's on most quality defenders were more allrounders, which makes it more difficult to pin down the likes of Nesta, Maldini, Thuram as one of the two. I'd say that when zonal marking became the way to go, the stopper/sweeper combination lost its importance and we saw a shift to defenders who can do both at least to a somewhat acceptable degree. Obviously you still had a few pairs that hinted at the old setup, e.g. Terry&Carvalho or Rio/Vidic, but it wasn't as clear cut as back in the 70's and 80's.
 

NM

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Gio said:
Any surprising reinforcements? I thought EAP/NM might have gone for Moore and Chester for Jairzinho. Not that the likes of Carlos Alberto and Marzolini aren't final worthy players of course.
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Trying to build the team I want rather than the one most likely to get votes. I love me some GOAT fullbacks.
 

Gol123

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Balu said:
Kohler ? He usually stands out between the stoppers. From the mid 90's on most quality defenders were more allrounders, which makes it more difficult to pin down the likes of Nesta, Maldini, Thuram as one of the two. I'd say that when zonal marking became the way to go, the stopper/sweeper combination lost its importance and we saw a shift to defenders who can do both at least to a somewhat acceptable degree. Obviously you still had a few pairs that hinted at the old setup, e.g. Terry&Carvalho or Rio/Vidic, but it wasn't as clear cut as back in the 70's and 80's.
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Definitely the stand out. Still wouldn't put him up there with the best, just a little bit behind mind you.

I really can't pick a stand out team here.
 

Joga Bonito

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Thursday it is then.

23 Oct - Friday

24 Oct - Saturday

25 Oct - Sunday

26 Oct - Monday

27 Oct - Tuesday

28 Oct - Wednesday

29 Oct - Thursday
joga vs Invictus
 
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