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2023-24 Performances


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Alpha 1

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Ah, well, then we just don't agree on what his ceiling is.

Just off the top of my head, Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Greenwood, Hojlund, Mainoo were / are destined for bigger things, than him. Maybe even Januzaj

By the way, Rashford last season IMO was better, than Ronaldo 06/07
That is a big lie based purely on goals. 06/07 is Ronaldo's best ever season in terms of all round play. That season, he was the bpitw; he was better than kaka who won the ballond'or based mainly on some big ucl goals; Messi was often injured (although fully fit, he was already the best). Rashford at any point wasn't even close.
 
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pacifictheme

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Not really because none of us have access to His contract, therefore we have to assume that’s it’s 50/50 he could potentially have a buy out clause, my point is why lose sleep over a 19 year old if you can potentially get £85m for him, we don’t know, yes the sources are dubious, however there’s is nothing in the media that says that he does not have a buy out clause either, why stress players come and go and I still need to see much more from any of our strikers before I anoint them Hero and God worship like many blind fans do after a few decent games!
Considering how rare release clauses are in the prem (have we even ever had one in a players contract?) it's not 50/50 ffs
 

Gabriel Djemba-Bebe

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Of the current crop, it's far more likely to be between Rashford, Hojlund and Bruno considering their positions and profiles.

If he's scoring 30 goals, he would likely be our main goal scoring threat, which wouldn't exactly be a good thing cause it might mean there's some systematic issue, our players are performing poorly and Garnacho himself may not be doing his job properly.
It's just a feeling I have based on how often he gets himself in dangerous positions, how he never seems to get injured and his inevitable switch back to LW. Also, Hojlund is a very unselfish player who doesn't always look for goal, which is why I can't see him reaching the 30 goal mark anytime soon as he's currently playing alongside wingers who like to cut in and shoot.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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They did very nearly get De Gea too, if not for a fax machine failure.
He was Atletico starting keeper and brought in for a club keeper record fee, and basically made no.1 from day one (bar a few months of bedding in competing with Lindegaard), nor a youngster who we developed. And after the fax thing he was more than happy to stay for years and won multiple PoTY for us, hardly comparable to CR who agitated for a move to Spain as early as 2006, and every summer thereafter until he left.

We also beat Madrid to Pogba’s signing, but that doesn’t fit the narrative of poor old Utd being Madrid’s feeder club and retirement house.

At the end of the day, the fact is there is one single player we sold them unwillingly in the last 3 decades, for a world record fee.
 

Grande

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They did very nearly get De Gea too, if not for a fax machine failure.
De Gea was getting pushed out at that point as well, to be fair, by Louis van Gaal. He found him wanting with ball playing, and De Gea was reluctant to follow his training philosophy for keepers, that they should train with the rest of the team a much higher percentage than De Gea had been used to.

Van Gaal changed his mind about De Gea, but that was later.
 

Semigoodlookin

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Rashford 2022/23 wasn't in this bracket?
No. You are basing it all on goals, but there are players all over Europe who score loads of goals each year and are not in the elite level best in the world bracket. Kevin Phillips scored 30 goals in the Premier League once and was never one of the best players in the world. Rashford is just a good - potentially very good - player who is not world class and has never been. There is nothing wrong with being very good and not elite. Ronaldo in 06/07 was just world class/elite and just about the most complete winger/wide forwards of a generation. All he added the next season was a dogged ruthlessness for scoring goals, but even so he still scored plenty in the 06/07 season too. You are overrating Rashford and underrating Ronaldo.
 

AltiUn

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He was Atletico starting keeper and brought in for a club keeper record fee, and basically made no.1 from day one (bar a few months of bedding in competing with Lindegaard), nor a youngster who we developed. And after the fax thing he was more than happy to stay for years and won multiple PoTY for us, hardly comparable to CR who agitated for a move to Spain as early as 2006, and every summer thereafter until he left.

We also beat Madrid to Pogba’s signing, but that doesn’t fit the narrative of poor old Utd being Madrid’s feeder club and retirement house.

At the end of the day, the fact is there is one single player we sold them unwillingly in the last 3 decades, for a world record fee.
Pogba was from our academy so we were always going to have the advantage there. Garnacho's from Madrid and by all accounts grew up a Madrid fan, it'd be odd to ignore these factors when considering his future. The likelihood of him ending up good enough for Madrid to want him is remarkably low anyway. The De Gea situation wasn't similar in terms of forcing a move, but he was obviously very happy to go there.
 

Rojofiam

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Person who makes laughable argument laughs at others. Comedy gold right here.
I accept that it wasn't a better season, maybe I was wrong, but I stand by that it's closer than you think.

Claiming Rashford wasn't top class last season is bullshit, though.
 

amolbhatia50k

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No. You are basing it all on goals, but there are players all over Europe who score loads of goals each year and are not in the elite level best in the world bracket. Kevin Phillips scored 30 goals in the Premier League once and was never one of the best players in the world. Rashford is just a good - potentially very good - player who is not world class and has never been. There is nothing wrong with being very good and not elite. Ronaldo in 06/07 was just world class/elite and just about the most complete winger/wide forwards of a generation. All he added the next season was a dogged ruthlessness for scoring goals, but even so he still scored plenty in the 06/07 season too. You are overrating Rashford and underrating Ronaldo.
The last decade or so has seen this absurd obsession with stats. As if all 30 goal seasons are equals whether it be from Maradona or Rashford.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I accept that it wasn't a better season, maybe I was wrong, but I stand by that it's closer than you think.

Claiming Rashford wasn't top class last season is bullshit, though.
He wasn’t top class. Top class is Salah, KDB, VVD and many more top players having their good seasons. Rashfords very best is several notches below.

The gap between Rashford and 06/07 Ronaldo is humongous. Rashford was all about the goals with his general play being his usual average level. Ronaldo was either the best or second best player in the world , capable of beating defenders for fun and contributing plenty to the overall football. It’s like comparing Salah and Rashford - something that would be laughed at by any other than the odd United who overrated Rashford.
 

MadDogg

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I accept that it wasn't a better season, maybe I was wrong, but I stand by that it's closer than you think.

Claiming Rashford wasn't top class last season is bullshit, though.
It's not though.

Rashford basically had a 'Lukaku' season. Scored a lot of goals, but his general play was average (at best) for about two thirds of the season. Now obviously it's great that he scored so many goals, but as the whole package he certainly wasn't one of the best attacking players in the world. There's a reason that many people felt Casemiro and Martinez were both arguably better, although it was close between the three of them.

Rashford was better in 19/20 than he was last season, despite not scoring as many.
 

tomaldinho1

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If Garnacho develops to a point where he becomes an appealing transfer target for Madrid then I’ll be a happy man.
Exactly this. Is he a generational talent that could not be replaced? No. So there's really no issue as long as the club isn't naive and let's him run down his deal (and even then is it that bad if he's giving 100% for us and doing well?).
 

Doracle

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It's not though.

Rashford basically had a 'Lukaku' season. Scored a lot of goals, but his general play was average (at best) for about two thirds of the season. Now obviously it's great that he scored so many goals, but as the whole package he certainly wasn't one of the best attacking players in the world. There's a reason that many people felt Casemiro and Martinez were both arguably better, although it was close between the three of them.

Rashford was better in 19/20 than he was last season, despite not scoring as many.
Come on now. Can you imagine 06 Ronaldo if you gave him Antony and Weghorst as his attacking colleagues? There’s no way he’d have got his head down like Rashford did last season. He’d have been a nightmare to manage. Conversely, how much better would Rashford be with Saha, Rooney and Scholes supplying him?

I’m not saying that Rashford is as good as 06 Ronaldo. I don’t think he is. However, he’s also been badly let down by the club’s failure to build a title challenging team around him. Had we done so, he’d be viewed in a much different light by our fans.

He was also quite clearly our best player last season. The only reason that’s not accepted on here is because 2/3rds of the forum had wanted him sold beforehand. It’s a lot easier to say that the two new signings were our best players, and Rashford just happened to be there, rather than people accepting that they got it badly wrong.
 

Woziak

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Considering how rare release clauses are in the prem (have we even ever had one in a players contract?) it's not 50/50 ffs
We’ve never ever had one and still might never have one, but Latin players are built different, so no we should at least be aware that it might exist and hopefully does not !
 

criticalanalysis

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It's just a feeling I have based on how often he gets himself in dangerous positions, how he never seems to get injured and his inevitable switch back to LW. Also, Hojlund is a very unselfish player who doesn't always look for goal, which is why I can't see him reaching the 30 goal mark anytime soon as he's currently playing alongside wingers who like to cut in and shoot.
That's fine, I'm not saying you're wrong but it's just not something I think would happen as it would take a ridiculous massive leap of improvement on Garnacho's end along with a lot of other factors.

He would basically have to become Ronaldo mark 2 but he wouldn't be playing in a dominating team with players like Scholes, Carrick, Tevez, Ronaldo, Nani etc.

As for Hojlund, that's true of his unselfishness but if Garnacho is scoring more goals than him, then I'd worry about our team big time.
 

Gabriel Djemba-Bebe

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That's fine, I'm not saying you're wrong but it's just not something I think would happen as it would take a ridiculous massive leap of improvement on Garnacho's end along with a lot of other factors.

He would basically have to become Ronaldo mark 2 but he wouldn't be playing in a dominating team with players like Scholes, Carrick, Tevez, Ronaldo, Nani etc.

As for Hojlund, that's true of his unselfishness but if Garnacho is scoring more goals than him, then I'd worry about our team big time.
He would hardly have to be as good as 2008 Ronaldo. Baring in mind I did say 30 goals in all comps, not 30 PL goals. If Rashford could do it when playing LW for most of last season, why can't Garnacho kick on in a year or two and do the same?
 

bond19821982

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If Garnacho develops to a point where he becomes an appealing transfer target for Madrid then I’ll be a happy man.
Exactly - get me one of PL /CL and 41 goals a season I am willing to drive him to Madrid.
 

criticalanalysis

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He would hardly have to be as good as 2008 Ronaldo. Baring in mind I did say 30 goals in all comps, not 30 PL goals. If Rashford could do it when playing LW for most of last season, why can't Garnacho kick on in a year or two and do the same?
I'm implying he would have to become a much superior individual football player than he is now, capable of getting a goal from anywhere. Powerful dribbling penetration, powerful runs, aerially strong (height and movement), incredible variety of finishing and mindset of an out and out forward.

Rashford for all his inconsistencies is athletically and stylistically closer to Ronaldo i.e the type of player, who I think can get that kind of output. Apart from Salah i.e one of the best forwards of the last 10 years, much more experienced and physically gifted compared to Garnacho, who else has scored 30 goals (all comps) as a diminutive wide player plying his trade in the Premier League?

I'd imagine that list is very small and basically assumes he will become an elite world class player or will have a one-off season like Rashford. Even with Rashford, he showed incredible productivity in his 19-20 season etc and has regular double digit goal contributions.

I'm very happy to be proven wrong and I'd share your enthusiasm but it's a big leap imo. If you said 30 goal + assist contributions then yeah, that's more realistic but still a big ask.
 

Gabriel Djemba-Bebe

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I'm implying he would have to become a much superior individual football player than he is now, capable of getting a goal from anywhere. Powerful dribbling penetration, powerful runs, aerially strong (height and movement), incredible variety of finishing and mindset of an out and out forward.

Rashford for all his inconsistencies is athletically and stylistically closer to Ronaldo i.e the type of player, who I think can get that kind of output. Apart from Salah i.e one of the best forwards of the last 10 years, much more experienced and physically gifted compared to Garnacho, who else has scored 30 goals (all comps) as a diminutive wide player plying his trade in the Premier League?

I'd imagine that list is very small and basically assumes he will become an elite world class player or will have a one-off season like Rashford. Even with Rashford, he showed incredible productivity in his 19-20 season etc and has regular double digit goal contributions.

I'm very happy to be proven wrong and I'd share your enthusiasm but it's a big leap imo. If you said 30 goal + assist contributions then yeah, that's more realistic but still a big ask.
Yes, he would obviously have to be a far more superior footballer than he is now. I am banking on that as he is only 19 and is displaying the raw attributes of a player with a very high ceiling. We've already seen him make huge strides in the past few months - at the start of the season the narrative was that he was often ineffective when starting games and was better as an impact player off the bench. Whereas now he's become undroppable. I'm confident we'll see him continue to grow into a major talent.

If Sterling and Son can get close to the 30 goal a season mark (the latter playing for a rather average team) then I wouldn't rule out Garnacho doing the same in his early-mid 20s.
 

Semigoodlookin

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I’m not saying that Rashford is as good as 06 Ronaldo. I don’t think he is. However, he’s also been badly let down by the club’s failure to build a title challenging team around him. Had we done so, he’d be viewed in a much different light by our fans.
But he is not a good enough player to have a title challenging team built around him. Ronaldo in 06 was, which is why Ferguson did build - well at least the attack - around him. In fact, Rashford would arguably be a weak link in a title winning team because of his poor decision making. Rashford is not as talented as Ronaldo, and 100% does not work as hard. So, in your experiment if you put Rashford in Ronaldo's 06/07 team, he would make it worse. If you put Ronaldo with Werghost etc, he would make the team better.
 

mu4c_20le

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But he is not a good enough player to have a title challenging team built around him. Ronaldo in 06 was, which is why Ferguson did build - well at least the attack - around him. In fact, Rashford would arguably be a weak link in a title winning team because of his poor decision making. Rashford is not as talented as Ronaldo, and 100% does not work as hard. So, in your experiment if you put Rashford in Ronaldo's 06/07 team, he would make it worse. If you put Ronaldo with Werghost etc, he would make the team better.
Don't think so. Ronaldo wasn't some sort of playmaker, he was direct like Rashford. You are also ignoring the fact that we are now indirectly comparing prime SAF with ETH. Total absurdity. Ronaldo didn't just magically made the team better, he wasn't player-coach back then. Now if you put prime SAF in charge of us last season and put 06 Ronaldo in there, then the team would be significantly better, because they would be properly coached.
 

Semigoodlookin

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Don't think so. Ronaldo wasn't some sort of playmaker, he was direct like Rashford. You are also ignoring the fact that we are now indirectly comparing prime SAF with ETH. Total absurdity. Ronaldo didn't just magically made the team better, he wasn't player-coach back then. Now if you put prime SAF in charge of us last season and put 06 Ronaldo in there, then the team would be significantly better, because they would be properly coached.
You don't think a player can elevate a team to be better? So, we wouldn't be a better team now if we added prime Messi and Zidane, even with ETH? Strange way of looking at it but fair enough. And Ronaldo wasn't direct like Rashford, he was direct and much better than him. And in no post have I compared SAF to ETH, so thanks for that strawman.
 

mu4c_20le

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You don't think a player can elevate a team to be better? So, we wouldn't be a better team now if we added prime Messi and Zidane, even with ETH? Strange way of looking at it but fair enough. And Ronaldo wasn't direct like Rashford, he was direct and much better than him. And in no post have I compared SAF to ETH, so thanks for that strawman.
Yes, but not in the way you describe. Ronaldo's general play was the result of years of coaching, and it was just starting to get good. It would be strange to think he could play exactly the same way, or even better, in our team last year and without SAF's coaching.

Also, Ronaldo's style is absolutely nothing like Messi and Zidane.
 

Semigoodlookin

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Yes, but not in the way you describe. Ronaldo's general play was the result of years of coaching, and it was just starting to get good. It would be strange to think he could play exactly the same way, or even better, in our team last year and without SAF's coaching.

Also, Ronaldo's style is absolutely nothing like Messi and Zidane.
Another strawman. I did not mention Ronaldo's style as similar to Messi or Zidane. I used them as an example of how player A being better than player B can make a team better, whether incrementally or significantly. I neither confirmed or denied that coaching would play a role in enhancing that increment or significant improvement further.

The original point was had the club built a title winning team around Rashford, he would be seen as a better player. Aside from that being obvious, my contention was at no point - even as a breakthrough 18-year old - has Rashford warranted having a title winning team built around him. Could he be a component in a title winning team? Sure, why not... he is a good player who can be very good. .

This debate - which I still cannot believe is happening - is focused on Rashford last season being as good as Ronaldo in 06/07. Rashford's season last year was the culmination of the coaching he has received. Ronaldo's was the culmination of the coaching he received. This goes without saying, but you said it anyway. Regardless, you are almost entirely ignoring talent and hard work, and the fact Ronaldo has more of both. Ronaldo was not "starting to get good" in 06/07, he was already "good". In fact, he was world class, he had been starting to "get good" in the seasons prior, although I would argue he was "good" even before United bought him. He was the second best player in the world in 06/07 and aside from participation in internationally important matches he was probably the best. All he added later was a more ruthless winning attitude and insatiable appetite for goals.

The problem is, looking at the culmination of coaching makes no sense. What are you saying, that if Rashford was given Ronaldo's coaching history he would be better, and Ronaldo given's Rashford's coaching would be worse? Well then yeah, maybe... but again it ignores any talent application the individual may or may not have.
 

mu4c_20le

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Another strawman. I did not mention Ronaldo's style as similar to Messi or Zidane. I used them as an example of how player A being better than player B can make a team better, whether incrementally or significantly. I neither confirmed or denied that coaching would play a role in enhancing that increment or significant improvement further.
Then they are terrible examples that actually worsen your case. His style could not be any more different. Messi and Zidane are natural playmakers, so it is in their game to make those around them better. I can't believe it took three exchanges for you to understand this, and you still come up with an example that actually proves my point.

The original point was had the club built a title winning team around Rashford, he would be seen as a better player. Aside from that being obvious, my contention was at no point - even as a breakthrough 18-year old - has Rashford warranted having a title winning team built around him. Could he be a component in a title winning team? Sure, why not... he is a good player who can be very good. .

This debate - which I still cannot believe is happening - is focused on Rashford last season being as good as Ronaldo in 06/07. Rashford's season last year was the culmination of the coaching he has received. Ronaldo's was the culmination of the coaching he received. This goes without saying, but you said it anyway. Regardless, you are almost entirely ignoring talent and hard work, and the fact Ronaldo has more of both. Ronaldo was not "starting to get good" in 06/07, he was already "good". In fact, he was world class, he had been starting to "get good" in the seasons prior, although I would argue he was "good" even before United bought him. He was the second best player in the world in 06/07 and aside from participation in internationally important matches he was probably the best. All he added later was a more ruthless winning attitude and insatiable appetite for goals.
In 06/07 I'd say he was at least a year away from the physical transformation that made him truly dominant. He wasn't that good for Portugal yet. In fact, the World Cup that year would be a good indication of how he'd elevate a mediocre side like ours last season.

The problem is, looking at the culmination of coaching makes no sense. What are you saying, that if Rashford was given Ronaldo's coaching history he would be better, and Ronaldo given's Rashford's coaching would be worse? Well then yeah, maybe... but again it ignores any talent application the individual may or may not have.
I actually think it doesn't make sense to expect 06 Ronaldo to play exactly the same way as he did under SAF who built the attack around him and Rooney. Either you expect players to be like AI where they bring their stats over to any team, or you think ETH can coach the team just like SAF did back then, with the fast tempo, passing triangles and patterns of play. I think it's delusion to think a 21 year old Ronaldo would make Antony and Weghorst better, at least without Fergie at the helm.
 

Invictus

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No more off-topic posts, please. Cheers!
 

Infordin

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70 minutes for Garna against Costa Rica.
Interesting that he was always marked by 3 Costa Rica players whenever he got the ball. Right now he plays a bit tensed, he just needs his first goal to loosen up IMO.
 

DJ_21

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Another player benefiting from the clubs trust in youth. He’s now getting called up to his national side. Happy to see that from our young players.
 

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I'm happy that Real Madrid are covered in the position where he plays for the foreseeable future, as I know that someday he will want to go to Real Madrid, and it would hurt just like when Cristiano left.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind him over there but I can't see it happening in the short/medium term but who knows if he's good enough he will surely caught the interest from the club.
 

Bwuk

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Poor decision to play him just back from a long haul flight from Argentina.
Thought he played in LA?

He wasn’t great today, but I thought it was stupid him coming off. Rashford was garbage, as was McTominay. Either of them should have came off. You always feel like Garnacho can make something happen.