All-Time European xi vs. All-Time South American xi

Chesterlestreet

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D.Santos Santamaría Figueroa N. Santos
Falcao Varela
Garrincha Pelé Zagallo
Ronaldo
Good one for my money. If "functional" is the key term, you really have to go for something like this.

Could replace Djalma with Cafu to spread it out more historically - but then again I buy the rationale behind fielding both Djalma and Nilton.

One thing strikes me, though: You could probably make Messi work in that formation. Replace Garrincha with him. You lose some sheer, unpredictable genius - but Messi still offers much of the same, and adds an even greater goal threat plus some extra playmaking ability. And that could actually come in handy. Pelé and Messi should work fine - enough - together. Provided Pelé doesn't piss him off with remarks about how Neymar is actually better - or similar Pelé style words of "wisdom".

 
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surf

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SA:

Cafu plus 6 Brazilians/Argies
Garrincha Di Stefano Messi
Pele

Not sure about playing Maradona with a bunch of other star names. His career was based on being the lone star and the main man all the time.
 

Theon

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SOUTH AMERICAN XI



This would be my team - it looks absolutely devastating up front and whilst it's extremely offensive Redondo/Falcao were well rounded enough to bring balance to the midfield. Those centre backs need minimal assistance anyway and I think the team would be so dominant that the whole side would push up and win the ball high up the pitch.

Looking at it now it would be a dream to watch that team play, its stacked with technical ability from defence right through to the attack and would be equally capable of taking the piss and keeping the ball as it would be attacking at pace or playing on the counter.

The only real debate for me is Nilton Santos vs Roberto Carlos. I've plumped for the latter as I'm clearer on what he brings to the team and IMO there hasn't been a wingback who offers the same amount of width and offensive influence - which is important given Pele's free role and capacity to come central.

EUROPEAN XI



This is a much harder process and there are three or four different ways you could go with a European XI. After thinking it through I've gone for this - completely imperious in defence and midfield, whilst giving centre stage to Europe's greatest ever in Johan Cruyff. I think its probably the best fit possible for Ronaldo as well, in terms of both formation and teammates.

I dont have a problem partnering Beckenbauer with Baresi as the latter was well rounded enough to partner any centre back. In any event, its impossible to improve upon cover for the centre backs than an axis of Maldini/Rijkaard/Thuram, with all three excellent centre backs in their own right.

It certainly wouldnt be as flashy as the South American XI but its hard to imagine that team conceding a goal, and with the technical ability crammed into the front three it's a side liable to score against any opposition - particularly with Matthaus/Neeskens well placed to influence the game offensively given the defensive security throughout the team.
 

Annahnomoss

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EUROPEAN XI



This is a much harder process and there are three or four different ways you could go with a European XI. After thinking it through I've gone for this - completely imperious in defence and midfield, whilst giving centre stage to Europe's greatest ever in Johan Cruyff. I think its probably the best fit possible for Ronaldo as well, in terms of both formation and teammates.

I dont have a problem partnering Beckenbauer with Baresi as the latter was well rounded enough to partner any centre back. In any event, its impossible to improve upon cover for the centre backs than an axis of Maldini/Rijkaard/Thuram, with all three excellent centre backs in their own right.

It certainly wouldnt be as flashy as the South American XI but its hard to imagine that team conceding a goal, and with the technical ability crammed into the front three it's a side liable to score against any opposition - particularly with Matthaus/Neeskens well placed to influence the game offensively given the defensive security throughout the team.
Was going to make one myself but that pretty much nails it. The competitive edge for the European XI has to be that midfield trio so for me they should have the team built around them. The entire midfield and defense stands out as quite a lot stronger defensively too. Not as flashy and probably not quite as good as the South American one but it pushes it damn close.
 

WhoDaGOAT

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I'm just going to post players from my lifetime. I'm a 90's kid. There are a few players who are unlucky to miss out.

Batistuta, Cafu, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ayala and Giberto Silva for South America.

Iniesta, Busquets, Irwin, Keane and Seedorf for Europe.

Iniesta instead of Zidane would give Europe more balance, but Zidane is Zizou.



 

harms

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I'm just going to post players from my lifetime. I'm a 90's kid. There are a few players who are unlucky to miss out.

Batistuta, Cafu, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Ayala and Giberto Silva for South America.

Iniesta, Busquets, Irwin, Keane and Seedorf for Europe.

Iniesta instead of Zidane would give Europe more balance, but Zidane is Zizou.



Suarez over Ronaldo when you've seen the latter play? :eek:
 

WhoDaGOAT

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Suarez over Ronaldo when you've seen the latter play? :eek:
Suárez is an incredible box striker. He's done it at every level from Groningen and the national team right up to his current day exports at Barcelona.

Ronaldo is a better individual player in a few areas, but Suárez makes up for that in other areas. He's very cute in the way he goes about his business.

Horrible man but a brilliant player. He'd work harder for the team. Let's not forget that we have three attacking lunatics in Alves, Carlos and Ronaldinho in my side. I was just going for balance.
 

Ecstatic

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Suárez is an incredible box striker. He's done it at every level from Groningen and the national team right up to his current day exports at Barcelona.

Ronaldo is a better individual player in a few areas, but Suárez makes up for that in other areas. He's very cute in the way he goes about his business.

Horrible man but a brilliant player. He'd work harder for the team. Let's not forget that we have three attacking lunatics in Alves, Carlos and Ronaldinho in my side. I was just going for balance.
The following video is interesting because you see the impact of Ronaldo in 90 minutes.

 

WhoDaGOAT

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The following video is interesting because you see the impact of Ronaldo in 90 minutes.

The Ronaldo of PSV and Barcelona is unplayable.

I loved his comeback on the world stage in 2002. He wasn't the same player but utilised his talents to remain effective, despite having important attributes reduced.
 

Ecstatic

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Career peak of Ronaldo - imho - 1st year with Inter Milan. Sure, he was unplayable in the previous seasons.

What is shameful is that he played with Inter all the games in his 1st season and was never substituted ou given a resting period.

Not to mention he had a special treatment and a team very reliant on him (limited collective game).

More than 55 games his 1st year in a tough league: he has not been preserved. Then, the WC 1998.
 

Cait Sith

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Can't deal with South America's attacking talent. I can't even imagine how a hypothetical Di Stefano, Maradona, Pelé and Messi attack would look like on the pitch. Arguably 4 of the the top 5 players of all time. The current "MSN" Barca trio would be like Toys R Us compared to that.
 

Brwned

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Good one for my money. If "functional" is the key term, you really have to go for something like this.

Could replace Djalma with Cafu to spread it out more historically - but then again I buy the rationale behind fielding both Djalma and Nilton.

One thing strikes me, though: You could probably make Messi work in that formation. Replace Garrincha with him. You lose some sheer, unpredictable genius - but Messi still offers much of the same, and adds an even greater goal threat plus some extra playmaking ability. And that could actually come in handy. Pelé and Messi should work fine - enough - together. Provided Pelé doesn't piss him off with remarks about how Neymar is actually better - or similar Pelé style words of "wisdom".

Yeah I'd agree with that. Instinctively I think Pelé and Messi are the only two of the big four that can play with one another - they weren't selfless players, but they were/are adaptable. On the face of it that's a strange thing to say given Pelé and Messi are the two (essentially) one-club men while Maradona and di Stéfano played in different countries, but Brazil in '58 and '70 were miles apart in the same way Barcelona in '09 and '16 are miles apart, as were the two star men's role in it. Whereas Maradona and di Stéfano were essentially always central figures at their peak, both in terms of stature and position.

That may be somewhat unfair given Pelé and Messi peaked early, and thus played a pivotal role as newcomers in the team and had to find their feet in a less central role to begin with. Maradona moved around in his early years in the same way, but the difference is he never excelled there - in '82 for Argentina and in the two seasons following for Barcelona he played upfront and struggled to some degree. He only came into his own when he was the focal point of the team. It's slightly different for di Stéfano as he did succeed with River as a forward and excelled later in a deeper role for Madrid, and his completeness means he's clearly adaptable, but his legacy is built on his performances as the hub of the team in midfield. He was the general. Pelé and Messi weren't/aren't of the same nature.

If we're bringing in Messi I'd bring in Cafú too - without Garrincha stuck on the wing he'd have loads of space to gallop into, and for me he was the better player overall. It's his impeccable partnership with Garrincha that justified his place to begin with, but I do agree you can squeeze Messi in there. Shame there's no room for di Stéfano in there though. Probably my favourite player overall. Pelé, Messi and Maradona are incredible individuals but the totality of di Stéfano's influence was just absurd.
 

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The following video is interesting because you see the impact of Ronaldo in 90 minutes.

:lol: how did UEFA let them play on that joke of a pitch for a decisive semi-final? Incredible that Ronaldo had the balance and composure to round the keeper on a pitch like that given he almost slipped as he went to celebrate!
 

stevoc

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Interesting picks for the keeper of the Euro XI so far, most going with Yashin. I never imagined so many Redcafe members to be in the age group to have seen him play on a regular basis to rate him so highly, considering he retired at the end of the 60's.

To be honest while his name always pops up in discussions about who the best keeper of all time is given his record during his career. I don't remember him him being universally regarded as the best ever.
 

Ecstatic

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:lol: how did UEFA let them play on that joke of a pitch for a decisive semi-final? Incredible that Ronaldo had the balance and composure to round the keeper on a pitch like that given he almost slipped as he went to celebrate!
Well seen mate. Catastrophic pitch and icy wind. This game sums up the 1997/98 season: an offensive strategy that mainly relied on Ronaldo.

Look at the top scorers in Serie A in 1997/98:

Top scorers Inter Milan
Serie A

Zamorano: 1 goal
 
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Ecstatic

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Interesting picks for the keeper of the Euro XI so far, most going with Yashin. I never imagined so many Redcafe members to be in the age group to have seen him play on a regular basis to rate him so highly, considering he retired at the end of the 60's.

To be honest while his name always pops up in discussions about who the best keeper of all time is given his record during his career. I don't remember him him being universally regarded as the best ever.
@stevoc

Humm, why do you think he is overrated?
 

stevoc

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@stevoc

Humm, why do you think he is overrated?
I'm not suggesting he is overrated at all, i don't know if he is or not because i never actually seen the guy play outside of a few highlights. And i imagine neither have most other people under the age of 60 either.

As i said in all the discussions and all time lists i've read over the years i can't recall anyone ever having him as their No1. Most likely because most people never actually seen him play, so it surprises me so many are picking him for their Euro XI's in here.
 

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Interesting picks for the keeper of the Euro XI so far, most going with Yashin. I never imagined so many Redcafe members to be in the age group to have seen him play on a regular basis to rate him so highly, considering he retired at the end of the 60's.

To be honest while his name always pops up in discussions about who the best keeper of all time is given his record during his career. I don't remember him him being universally regarded as the best ever.
I'd distinguish between best and greatest here. Buffon, Schmeichel, Kahn and co. were much better keepers than Yashin. What sets Yashin is apart is that he was just lightyears ahead of his peers at that time and is undoubtedly the most influential keeper of the televised era. It's the one position that's seen the most improvement since the 50s, without question, and Yashin played an absolutely pivotal role in that.

He didn't invent the sweeper keeper but he is the one who popularised it, and he's credited with establishing the role of the keeper as a defensive organiser too. From a technical standpoint there really was clear daylight between him and the rest and along with his leadership qualities he played a huge part in shaping the role of the modern goalkeeper.

It's fair to say that there's nothing modern keepers are doing that he wasn't doing half a century ago, whereas it's undoubtedly true that the great keepers before him weren't doing some of the things he was. The best keepers of today do everything better than he did - and anyone arguing otherwise is mad - but they don't really do anything new. That's his legacy.

Well seen mate. Catastrophic pitch and icy wind. This game sums up the 1997/98 season: an offensive strategy that mainly relied on Ronaldo.

Look at the top scorers in Serie A in 1997/98:

Top scorers Inter Milan
Serie A

Zamorano: 1 goal
Yeah no doubt he was a one man attack at his peak, and his all-round influence went up a notch at Inter.
 
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YASHIN

VOGTS. BECKENBAUER. SCIREA. MALDINI

MATTHEUS. PLATINI XAVI

BEST. PUSKAS. CRUYFF

(Tough to leave Baresi and Muller out.... )
-------------------------------------------------------------

MARADONA. RONALDO. MESSI

RIVELINO. TOSTAO. GARRINCHA

SANTOS. PASSARELLA. CAFU. CARLOS ALBERTO

CHILAVERT

(No Pelé.... shock, horror!)

Really struggling to look at these XI's and make a case to say "it's clear that xxxxx would win".... think S.America might edge it (might)
 

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Suárez is an incredible box striker. He's done it at every level from Groningen and the national team right up to his current day exports at Barcelona.

Ronaldo is a better individual player in a few areas, but Suárez makes up for that in other areas. He's very cute in the way he goes about his business.

Horrible man but a brilliant player. He'd work harder for the team. Let's not forget that we have three attacking lunatics in Alves, Carlos and Ronaldinho in my side. I was just going for balance.
Ronaldo is leaps and bounds better than Suarez.
 

fontaine

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Yeah no doubt he was a one man attack at his peak, and his all-round influence went up a notch at Inter.
Imagine Ronaldo playing with Messi. Peak Ronaldo basically was wasted in mediocre teams. In National Team we saw the damage he could do.

Those are the two players I've seen that are heads and shoulders above the rest, Messi even more so because he had a longer spell.
 

Libano

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Schmeichel
Lahm Cannavaro Stam Maldini
Busquets
Robben Xavi Zidane Henry
G.Muller

Alternates: Platini, Neuer, Baresi, Desailly, Laudrup, Cruyff, Scirea, Matthaus, C.Ronaldo, Bergkamp, Pirlo, Zlatan
 

Chesterlestreet

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He only came into his own when he was the focal point of the team. It's slightly different for di Stéfano as he did succeed with River as a forward and excelled later in a deeper role for Madrid, and his completeness means he's clearly adaptable, but his legacy is built on his performances as the hub of the team in midfield. He was the general. Pelé and Messi weren't/aren't of the same nature.
Yes, that's the problem as I see it. Pelé works well with playmakers (not really being one himself in the traditional sense), but not so well with actual generals. If it weren't for this, you could theoretically field Di Stefano and have Pelé lead the line with some freedom to drop down, etc., in a false nine-ish role of sorts. But I don't fancy it much for the reason mentioned. Di Stefano isn't just a string puller, he's a very active, hands-on, conspicuous player who'd want to grab hold of the match in a way which would – I think – interfere with Pelé's natural game.

And if you hypothetically instruct Pelé to operate in a more limited manner, as a pure striker, if you will – you lose an essential part of what he was all about in his best, more mature incarnation.

So, no – doesn't really work. If you'd had a less phenomenal option than Ronaldo up front, you could have gone for it anyway, of course, as it'd still be a set-up that'd produce plenty - but with options like him, well, there it is. The Pelé-Ronaldo combo strikes me as more deadly than the alternative - with much less risk of having too many cooks mess up the flow.
 

fontaine

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Who will be the one running with the ball all the time? :)
Are you crazy? Imagina Ronaldo running at those Messi perfect through balls. He'd score 2 goals a game.
 
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Suárez is an incredible box striker. He's done it at every level from Groningen and the national team right up to his current day exports at Barcelona.

Ronaldo is a better individual player in a few areas, but Suárez makes up for that in other areas. He's very cute in the way he goes about his business.

Horrible man but a brilliant player. He'd work harder for the team. Let's not forget that we have three attacking lunatics in Alves, Carlos and Ronaldinho in my side. I was just going for balance.
You can say that again..... just ask Ivanovic and Chiellini
 

Moby

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Are you crazy? Imagina Ronaldo running at those Messi perfect through balls. He'd score 2 goals a game.
Yea that would be brilliant but not exactly the role that either are made their name for. You reduced Messi to a playmaker and Ronaldo to someone who'd be constantly making runs behind the defenders when both at their best would take the ball and run at defenders.
 

WhoDaGOAT

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Ronaldo is leaps and bounds better than Suarez.
A better dribbler and easier on the eye, definitely. But Suárez is complete in every way. Both rank among the greatest strikers of the modern age.
 

RooneyLegend

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A better dribbler and easier on the eye, definitely. But Suárez is complete in every way. Both rank among the greatest strikers of the modern age.
There's virtually nothing Suarez does better than Ronaldo, nothing.
 

stevoc

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I'd distinguish between best and greatest here. Buffon, Schmeichel, Kahn and co. were much better keepers than Yashin. What sets Yashin is apart is that he was just lightyears ahead of his peers at that time and is undoubtedly the most influential keeper of the televised era. It's the one position that's seen the most improvement since the 50s, without question, and Yashin played an absolutely pivotal role in that.

He didn't invent the sweeper keeper but he is the one who popularised it, and he's credited with establishing the role of the keeper as a defensive organiser too. From a technical standpoint there really was clear daylight between him and the rest and along with his leadership qualities he played a huge part in shaping the role of the modern goalkeeper.

It's fair to say that there's nothing modern keepers are doing that he wasn't doing half a century ago, whereas it's undoubtedly true that the great keepers before him weren't doing some of the things he was. The best keepers of today do everything better than he did - and anyone arguing otherwise is mad - but they don't really do anything new. That's his legacy.
Thats a great summarisation of Yashin's qualities and his effect on Goalkeeping. And i agree from what little i've seen it struck me how modern he seemed to be in his style of play. I also agree to an extent that the likes of Schmeichel, Buffon etc. are better keepers well at least i think they are. I couldn't say for certain that they are though as Yashin was just way before my time and i never got to watch him regularly.

To me best and greatest are pretty much the same thing. If picking an all time XI i would want the best regardless of whether they were revolutionary or not.

All that aside though it still surprises me so many are opting for him ahead of Kahn, Schmeichel etc. having most likely never seen him play. But it's all subjective i guess.
 

stevoc

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There's virtually nothing Suarez does better than Ronaldo, nothing.
He's better at biting people and thats about it.

These threads always throw up odd comparisons, Ronaldo or Suarez hard one that.
 

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The South American attack conundrum is a bit tricky, I think it's useful if we can express what we they they all were best at in terms of roles and qualities and make sure of as less overlap as possible. I'll try to list the qualities in the order of their impact on said player's greatness as all these could basically do everything.

Lionel Messi : RW/CF. Dribbler, Finisher, Playmaker.
Diego Maradona : AM. Playmaker, Dribbler.
Pelé : SS/ST. Finisher, Dribbler.
Alfredo Di Stefano : CM/AM/ST. Finisher, Playmaker, Defender
Ronaldo : ST. Dribbler, Finisher.
Zico : AM. Playmaker, Finisher.
Garrincha : RW. Dribbler.

So that's the spread as far as I can say. The top three there all bring three different key assets to the team as their primary qualities, so all of them will play. Needless to say, positionally there's zero overlap and you'd have Messi (RW), Maradona (AM), Pelé (ST). It's a direct competition between Pelé and Fenomeno as they bring much to the same, so Ronaldo drops out. Now comes the trickiest one in the mix : Di Stefano. The only way he can be a part of the team is if we play a 5 pronged attack, and even then, both him and Maradona would have to play the left inside forward role, as both played on the left side of the pitch. There's actually no way whatsoever to include Di Stefano unless you replace one of Diego or Pelé, which isn't happening. So that would be another exclusion. There's no space for Zico either, and Garrincha can feature given we go with the 5 up front tactic. So first attempt could be:

Pelé
Rivelino - Maradona - Messi

OR

Neymar - Pelé - Garrincha
Maradona - Messi
I'll go with the second. I went for Neymar as he's the best South American LWF of all time, as well as his telepathic chemistry with Leo. He wouldn't interfere in the playmaking aspect unlike Rivelino or Ronaldinho would and would be a fantastic outlet on that flank.

Coming to midfield, and I wouldn't count Di Stefano as a midfielder, his best was clearly as a CF no matter how complete he was. Leaves us with some decent decisions to make. Given we are going with a 3-2-5, we need strong midfielders who can sit deep and dictate play, we cannot include the likes of Didi or Gerson as they would foray forward a lot and that is counter productive. There's little room for the Uruguayan Varela as well, in this formation. It comes down to three names for me : Fernando Redondo, Paulo Roberto Falcão and Jose Leandro Andrade for those roles. If this was a 2-3-5, Andrade would be the first name on the team sheet. But in this case, I'll prefer the Argentine and the Brazilian.

Lastly, in defense, the central figure is undisputed. Greatest South American defender of all time: Don Elias Figueroa. For the left back, Nilton Santos would be a shoe in. The right back is trickier. I had a tough time deciding between Javier Zanetti and Carlos Alberto, while Pupi's influence in midfield from the right back position is invaluable, it's Alberto's staunch defensive ability as well as his ability to tuck in centrally (you'd rarely need an attacking output from a RB with Garrincha on that side, he'd hate you for making him share his space), he got the nod.

Shocking lack of depth in the keepers pool, and to represent the two time World Champions, I'll include Ladislao Mazurkiewicz. My final team:



This is the best I can do while creating a 'fantasy' team. Sure there's still plenty of talking points like which one of Messi or Garrincha carries the ball on the right or whether Diego pulls the strings or Leo? But I'd let those dilemmas be a part of this, at the cost of a bit of realism and retaining the fantasy element to it.
 

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All Time European XI (one from a nation max) watching Ronaldo score a penalty.
 

Cantona'sCollar

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For the SA team, my picks for keeper were Taffarel, Dida (underrated player who isn't remembered as well as he should be never sustained his peak form for very long), Gylmar, Chilavert & Higuita. I wasn't sure who to choose, so I picked Gylmar as he was the first choice GK in Brasil's most successful era.

For full-backs, it was definitely Roberto Carlos on the left. Zanetti is excellent, but I would have him on the bench to fill in either at LB or in midfield. For the RB spot, there was Alves, Carlos Alberto & Cafu. I chose Cafu simply because he was a superior defender to Alves (who is very underrated, however, and is often dismissed as a winger playing in defence), and that will be important against Ronaldo, Best, Cruyff etc. Dani Alves is better going forward, though. I didn't choose Alberto as I have never seen him play, though many say he is better than them all. Had I played 3 at the back, he would have been on the right.

At CB, I chose Passarella & Figueroa, though I considered Godin, Lucio & Thiago Silva (who I feel is underrated by English fans because he plays in a weak league, though that also means he isn't as proven as the other players mentioned). In central midfield, I chose Dunga with Falcao over Zico, Valderrama, Socrates & Rivelino (all infinitely superior than Dunga when the team has the ball) because there are 4 forwards in the team & it needs to be balanced against Europe's midfield & attack.

As for the forwards, it was 4 out of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona & Ronaldinho. At their peaks, I believe all were more effective than Ronaldinho (no slight), though he is my favourite of the 5 so it is hard to exclude him. Garrincha, Romario & Jairzinho were all excellent, but I don't think they were on the same level as those mentioned above. Di Stefano I have not watched enough of in comparison to any of the others, & that is why I didn't pick him.

Something like this, with the full-backs providing width as Messi and Maradona go inside. Should the team play counter-attacking football (where Messi & Maradona are more likely to remain wide), the full-backs will be more in position, allowing Falcao to roam forward and provide an extra player in attack. Ronaldo and Pele left to do whatever. Ronaldinho would definitely come on as a sub. Very strong defensively (though not as solid as Europe's team), with infinitely more quality up front than any European line-up can possibly have - those 4 would score goals at will.

 

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SA XI -



The idea is to get the best out of Maradona, with 2 fast clinical strikers who can also spread the field when needed. Didi is probably the only one who would be the point of contention, but he did won a world cup playing in a midfield 2 and here he would be supported by Passarella and Falcao. Carlos and Cafu flying on the wings would provide ample width.
 

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Location
Inside right
The common 'mistake' with the S.A sides has always been to try and stuff arguably 4of the 5 best players of all time into the same side. By the same token, the common 'mistake' with Euro sides is putting any 2 sweeperish/style-based defenders together as a back two. Any combination of:

Baresi-Scirea
Baresi-Moore
Baresi-Beckenbauer
Scirea-Moore
Scirea-Beckenbauer

is making one or both players redundant and having two players either making concessions or unable, or, unwilling, to the grunt work that distracts or subtracts from their natural game. Also, all three players would expect to be the central hub, leader and decision maker in their team, which is as big a problem as Di Stefano and Maradona in any side together, imo.

I think a decision has to be made on who will lead from the back and then a proper partner, whose main or sole function as well as love of pure defending, be put next to them.