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2023-24 Performances


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Borninthe80ts

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Form doesn't exist in this case. Antony isn't some out of form star that needs some confidence.
I agree he has been really poor but for me if you invest the amount you did in him I’m going to try and get some sort of return. I’m not saying it’s fair but the only way he can get better is by playing.
 

Borys

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If only! Have you not been watching us this season?!
If that's the case, why wouldn't we send him on loan? If we're 3-0 up and still go for Antony in 88', in which circumstances are we planning to play Amad?
Not to mention Antony was the guy who lost the ball what led to 3rd Wolves goal last week, so him being better defensively is kind of a moot point.

I agree he has been really poor but for me if you invest the amount you did in him I’m going to try and get some sort of return. I’m not saying it’s fair but the only way he can get better is by playing.
That is exactly the problem, seems like we're focusing on making Antony play better (against easy / beaten opposition) rather than the team in general.
 

Pogue Mahone

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If that's the case, why wouldn't we send him on loan? If we're 3-0 up and still go for Antony in 88', in which circumstances are we planning to play Amad?
Not to mention Antony was the guy who lost the ball what led to 3rd Wolves goal last week, so him being better defensively is kind of a moot point.
When we need a goal?
 

Lash

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I think this will turn out not to be true soon, but one can wish.
It already happened against forest?
If that's the case, why wouldn't we send him on loan? If we're 3-0 up and still go for Antony in 88', in which circumstances are we planning to play Amad?
Not to mention Antony was the guy who lost the ball what led to 3rd Wolves goal last week, so him being better defensively is kind of a moot point.


That is exactly the problem, seems like we're focusing on making Antony play better (against easy / beaten opposition) rather than the team in general.
Not really, because in all the other games Antony has played, he has been. Amad has not been available all season and wasn't even in our first team when he got injured. He's not all of a sudden going to be dropped into the first team because he's now fit.
 

Borys

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It already happened against forest?

Not really, because in all the other games Antony has played, he has been. Amad has not been available all season and wasn't even in our first team when he got injured. He's not all of a sudden going to be dropped into the first team because he's now fit.
Sure thing, I am just asking why in that case wasn't he sent on loan. Garnacho is our first choice RW, Antony is second, we play one game per week and fight for our life for the rest of the season. We have enough cover for RW, why not send Amad on loan if you're not planning to play him anyway? It's a wasted season at this point surely.
 

lex talionis

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In this instance him calling you out as talking nonsense does constitute an argument as your original point was completely made up.
So now we know for a fact that the reports of the transfer agreement including add ons is “completely made up”? It only takes a few seconds to check it out for yourself.

Amigos, football for those whose earn their living off of it is above all a business. There’s no escaping this reality. For us it’s not a business, but in the end we are customers and clubs are businesses that sell us a product. They sell, we buy. Clubs have a duty to squeeze profits or at least minimize losses. ETH’s primary job is to secure wins, but he is part of the management team that has to decide how to allocate resources which are not infinite. We fans question those financial de visions all the time when it comes to transfer activity and at times wages. The club was hammered, and I think rightly so, for spending 70m on Antony and 375k/week on De Gea’s wages. But the spending doesn’t stop there. Managers are keenly aware of the financial implications of playing players who have add ons in the transfer contracts and it would be daft to believe that they aren’t aware.

The claim that Amad is shit in training may well be true, but there’s nothing that we see in the character of the player in the pitch in competitive matches to suggest that that’s likely, in contrast to Sancho, about whom when reports came out about his poor training no one surprised. In the end we can only speculate as to why ETH refuses to give Amad any minutes while Antony continue to be an embarrassment and put us at risk as he did v Wolves, but clinging to the “shit in training” theory is lazy.
 

Lash

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Sure thing, I am just asking why in that case wasn't he sent on loan. Garnacho is our first choice RW, Antony is second, we play one game per week and fight for our life for the rest of the season. We have enough cover for RW, why not send Amad on loan if you're not planning to play him anyway? It's a wasted season at this point surely.
It's up to make himself second choice or back up striker (Forson being picked ahead of him is a red flag for me). There's no point sending him on loan to the championship again, where we know he can perform, he needs to prove himself here.
 

AltiUn

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So now we know for a fact that the reports of the transfer agreement including add ons is “completely made up”? It only takes a few seconds to check it out for yourself.

Amigos, football for those whose earn their living off of it is above all a business. There’s no escaping this reality. For us it’s not a business, but in the end we are customers and clubs are businesses that sell us a product. They sell, we buy. Clubs have a duty to squeeze profits or at least minimize losses. ETH’s primary job is to secure wins, but he is part of the management team that has to decide how to allocate resources which are not infinite. We fans question those financial de visions all the time when it comes to transfer activity and at times wages. The club was hammered, and I think rightly so, for spending 70m on Antony and 375k/week on De Gea’s wages. But the spending doesn’t stop there. Managers are keenly aware of the financial implications of playing players who have add ons in the transfer contracts and it would be daft to believe that they aren’t aware.

The claim that Amad is shit in training may well be true, but there’s nothing that we see in the character of the player in the pitch in competitive matches to suggest that that’s likely, in contrast to Sancho, about whom when reports came out about his poor training no one surprised. In the end we can only speculate as to why ETH refuses to give Amad any minutes while Antony continue to be an embarrassment and put us at risk as he did v Wolves, but clinging to the “shit in training” theory is lazy.
Er no, what's made up is you saying that's why he's being left out of the team, literally 0 evidence of that, pure speculation. But I think you knew that already and don't like being called out for presenting a hypothetical as unquestionable fact.
 

Mingus

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It's up to make himself second choice or back up striker (Forson being picked ahead of him is a red flag for me). There's no point sending him on loan to the championship again, where we know he can perform, he needs to prove himself here.
Forson hasn't signed a contract and EtH obviously rates him enough to want to keep him if possible. This is in marked contrast to Hansen-Aarøen who he didn't play.

I would imagine that Amad will get a game soon but he'll be introduced against the right opposition for his own sake.

Keeping Antony or not will probably be the call of the new DoF and I doubt if EtH regards him as a hill to die on. Probably trying to preserve his value in the meantime.
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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It already happened against forest?

Not really, because in all the other games Antony has played, he has been. Amad has not been available all season and wasn't even in our first team when he got injured. He's not all of a sudden going to be dropped into the first team because he's now fit.
I mean he fecking should be if the choice is between him and Antony. This isn't some complicated decision to make
 

Lash

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Forson hasn't signed a contract and EtH obviously rates him enough to want to keep him if possible. This is in marked contrast to Hansen-Aarøen who he didn't play.

I would imagine that Amad will get a game soon but he'll be introduced against the right opposition for his own sake.

Keeping Antony or not will probably be the call of the new DoF and I doubt if EtH regards him as a hill to die on. Probably trying to preserve his value in the meantime.
Ten Hag specifically mentioned Amad's name when talking about the back up CF position, so he's definitely in his thinking there. I don't really like this free pass Amad is getting because of Antony. Ten Hag wants to win football matches more than protect Antony's value, if Amad was really as good as people are claiming, he'd be pushing out Antony pretty easily.
I mean he fecking should be if the choice is between him and Antony. This isn't some complicated decision to make
It isn't the choice now though is it. Our front 3 is Rashford, Hojlund and Garnacho. It's completely on Amad to find how he gets in the team with that in mind.
 

lex talionis

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Er no, what's made up is you saying that's why he's being left out of the team, literally 0 evidence of that, pure speculation. But I think you knew that already and don't like being called out for presenting a hypothetical as unquestionable fact.
Yes, all of us here can do nothing more than engage in pure speculation as to why, for example, ETH prefers Antony and refuses to give Amad a proper chance. Your brilliant point is well taken, which I'm sure extends to all the other speculation that goes on here 24/7.

According to media reports, which I have not been able to verify since I do not have access to the actual contract:

United have completed a deal worth an initial €21 million (£19 million), with a potential €20 million (£18 million) in add-ons, a significant transfer for an 18-year-old with just a handful of appearances in Serie A.

18m in add-ons is highly unusual, but not unheard of. Would you be willing to speculate as to what the nature of the add-ons entail?
 

AltiUn

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Would you be willing to speculate as to what the nature of the add-ons entail?
Judging by your original comment "Can't play from January onwards in 2024 for fear of triggering clauses".
None of us has access to the transfer agreement but it seems pretty obvious that the add ons play a huge role in ETH keeping Amad on the bench.
Like, how have you even arrived at this conclusion? Do you not see how stupid that sounds?
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Ten Hag specifically mentioned Amad's name when talking about the back up CF position, so he's definitely in his thinking there. I don't really like this free pass Amad is getting because of Antony. Ten Hag wants to win football matches more than protect Antony's value, if Amad was really as good as people are claiming, he'd be pushing out Antony pretty easily.

It isn't the choice now though is it. Our front 3 is Rashford, Hojlund and Garnacho. It's completely on Amad to find how he gets in the team with that in mind.
I'm speaking more of that 4th forward spot. Right now that's between Antony and Amad (and Forson maybe for some reason), and if it's between those options Amad is the best choice considering his potential and ability.

Obviously our front 3 is settled for the rest of the year no doubt.
 

Andersons Dietician

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My guess is ETH believes and has probably seen that Antony is better than he has shown here at United and is trying to play him into some sort of form. Because it does seem strange that Amid hasn't even really had a run out, a few minutes here or there but then saying that it would seem Garnacho is now the fave option for the RW and Antony is the one getting a few minutes here and there.

Maybe Antony is great in training or maybe Amid isn’t that good of a fit in a team working on transitional play. Might be terrible at getting his head around the job asked of him in our pressing system. Whatever it is I hope he gets a good few chances before the end of the season as out of our forward options he seems the one most likely to find that killer pass.
 

lex talionis

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Judging by your original comment "Can't play from January onwards in 2024 for fear of triggering clauses".

Like, how have you even arrived at this conclusion? Do you not see how stupid that sounds?
Hysteria and hyperbole a common tactic on internet forums when one can't bear to address the facts directly. I am amused.

The facts are the following:
  • Amad was a very highly regarded youth prospect in Serie A
  • The contract that sent Amad to United includes a clause that adds on potentially another 18m payable to Atalanta should certain conditions be met.
What could these conditions possibly be? They can include a Balon d'Or trophy, but it's unlikely that such a clause was inserted in that contract. They are typically performance-related metrics such as appearances and goals scored. Typically, almost universally, the add ons are related to the performance of the player and almost always focus primarily on player appearances and not performances such as goals scored, assists or even xG. Put another way, the point of add ons is to provide a hedge for the buying club that if a player doesn't quite work out and his appearances are minimal that the financial hit to the buying club is lessened to some degree, as opposed to a full 37m straight up transfer fee that otherwise would have been paid to Atalanta in this case had Amad made numerous appearances for United. The appearance based clause in clause in Amad's contract is, if media reports are to be believed, roughly equal to the base transfer fee. This is not new news.

With this knowledge, your follow up question would undoubtedly be how could anyone be sure that financial considerations would in any way impact the manager's decision to play or not play any player? What I would urge you to do is to take the diapers off and understand that football is a business for the people who put on the show to entertain us. Yes of course ETH puts on the best XI he has available to him, but financial considerations are taken into account every day as to who is in the squad in the first place. We take a pass on some players because someone within the club deems the overpriced and we keep some players because we can't sell them, at least not a price that the club is willing to accept. And then we keep other players to "protect their value", which is a daft concept but there is some logic to it. United are a publicly traded company, yes with a new management team in town without question, but it is not a club that can spend whatever it wishes. And of course we have the vultures at the top of the company pyramid. The club has to align expenditures to some degree with revenue and if we have players like Amad who will cost the club another say 50k/appearance even if the substitution takes place in stoppage time, that cost is not going to be ignored club management.

This takes us back to why we're not seeing Amad play even though he's now fully fit and Antony continues to flop? The real answer is that none of know what goes through ETH's mind when he subs on Antony but not Amad, but what we objectively know as fact is that Antony has been in horrific form all season (and to be honest, much of last season as well) and that on the few occasions we've seen Amad he's looked quite decent and by all accounts was brilliant last season for Sunderland. Antony was ETH's buy and Amad was not, so everyone here understands that ETH will always want to see his buy succeed. No problem with that at all. But with Antony having become an international joke and a "symbol of everything that is wrong at Old Trafford" (in the same report: "It’s been claimed that the same department valued Anthony Elanga as more productive than Antony. With ten Hag desperate for a new right winger, the Premier League club paid the sum, three times what their own recruitment department believed Antony was worth.) and Amad not even getting a few minutes against a League Two side, we're well past the point of mere ETH homerism with his buy. It is at this point ludicrous that Antony continues to get minutes that he has done nothing to deserve while a highly regarded young player who has shown more in few appearances than Antony ever has in his multiple appearances, rots on the bench. If it's not the add ons clause in Amad's contact that at least makes one wonder, then what is it?
 

Lash

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Hysteria and hyperbole a common tactic on internet forums when one can't bear to address the facts directly. I am amused.

The facts are the following:
  • Amad was a very highly regarded youth prospect in Serie A
  • The contract that sent Amad to United includes a clause that adds on potentially another 18m payable to Atalanta should certain conditions be met.
What could these conditions possibly be? They can include a Balon d'Or trophy, but it's unlikely that such a clause was inserted in that contract. They are typically performance-related metrics such as appearances and goals scored. Typically, almost universally, the add ons are related to the performance of the player and almost always focus primarily on player appearances and not performances such as goals scored, assists or even xG. Put another way, the point of add ons is to provide a hedge for the buying club that if a player doesn't quite work out and his appearances are minimal that the financial hit to the buying club is lessened to some degree, as opposed to a full 37m straight up transfer fee that otherwise would have been paid to Atalanta in this case had Amad made numerous appearances for United. The appearance based clause in clause in Amad's contract is, if media reports are to be believed, roughly equal to the base transfer fee. This is not new news.

With this knowledge, your follow up question would undoubtedly be how could anyone be sure that financial considerations would in any way impact the manager's decision to play or not play any player? What I would urge you to do is to take the diapers off and understand that football is a business for the people who put on the show to entertain us. Yes of course ETH puts on the best XI he has available to him, but financial considerations are taken into account every day as to who is in the squad in the first place. We take a pass on some players because someone within the club deems the overpriced and we keep some players because we can't sell them, at least not a price that the club is willing to accept. And then we keep other players to "protect their value", which is a daft concept but there is some logic to it. United are a publicly traded company, yes with a new management team in town without question, but it is not a club that can spend whatever it wishes. And of course we have the vultures at the top of the company pyramid. The club has to align expenditures to some degree with revenue and if we have players like Amad who will cost the club another say 50k/appearance even if the substitution takes place in stoppage time, that cost is not going to be ignored club management.

This takes us back to why we're not seeing Amad play even though he's now fully fit and Antony continues to flop? The real answer is that none of know what goes through ETH's mind when he subs on Antony but not Amad, but what we objectively know as fact is that Antony has been in horrific form all season (and to be honest, much of last season as well) and that on the few occasions we've seen Amad he's looked quite decent and by all accounts was brilliant last season for Sunderland. Antony was ETH's buy and Amad was not, so everyone here understands that ETH will always want to see his buy succeed. No problem with that at all. But with Antony having become an international joke and a "symbol of everything that is wrong at Old Trafford" (in the same report: "It’s been claimed that the same department valued Anthony Elanga as more productive than Antony. With ten Hag desperate for a new right winger, the Premier League club paid the sum, three times what their own recruitment department believed Antony was worth.) and Amad not even getting a few minutes against a League Two side, we're well past the point of mere ETH homerism with his buy. It is at this point ludicrous that Antony continues to get minutes that he has done nothing to deserve while a highly regarded young player who has shown more in few appearances than Antony ever has in his multiple appearances, rots on the bench. If it's not the add ons clause in Amad's contact that at least makes one wonder, then what is it?
This whole post could just be this sentence and then you'd realise it's specious reasoning.
 

uwotm8

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It is unfortunate that he was not fit early season with the fixture load. The opportunity to develop in weekly matches with other players ahead of him is not really there.
Still a madness that Antony is getting cameo minutes ahead of him.

Maybe that is Erik's own sunk cost fallacy at play; trying to justify his transfer.
 

lex talionis

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This whole post could just be this sentence and then you'd realise it's specious reasoning.
The "whole post" is meant to remind the poster that at the bottom of it all from a club's perspective the club is a business that has to be run with an eye on its finances. It boggles the mind that the club has been run so badly that it now has to worry about small change like appearance fees payable to another club, but that's the reality of where are. That we are in a financial mess is indisputable. What is disputable is the reason why club management refuse to make even late substitutions for a player whose transfer agreement between United and Atalanta contains such a clause. Maybe we're all wrong and Antony actually has been brilliant all season whereas in his few appearances Amad hasn't come close to Antony's briliance.

Or we can go with the handy "shit in training" excuse that gets wheeled out when we have expensive players who rot on the bench. We do know from the manager's own words that Sancho is shit in training, so I suppose it's possible Amad is shit in training as well.
 

Lash

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The "whole post" is meant to remind the poster that at the bottom of it all from a club's perspective the club is a business that has to be run with an eye on its finances. It boggles the mind that the club has been run so badly that it now has to worry about small change like appearance fees payable to another club, but that's the reality of where are. That we are in a financial mess is indisputable. What is disputable is the reason why club management refuse to make even late substitutions for a player whose transfer agreement between United and Atalanta contains such a clause. Maybe we're all wrong and Antony actually has been brilliant all season whereas in his few appearances Amad hasn't come close to Antony's briliance.

Or we can go with the handy "shit in training" excuse that gets wheeled out when we have expensive players who rot on the bench. We do know from the manager's own words that Sancho is shit in training, so I suppose it's possible Amad is shit in training as well.
You have no idea if the add-ons were appearance fees, or what the qualifying factors are. You're just assuming that's what it is to justify why he's not playing to back up your own point and then just presenting a strawman argument like your Antony point to hammer it home.

If Forson is getting on ahead of him, it's clear there's something missing from Amad's performances (in training or on the pitch) that the manager is expecting. Ten Hag is going to care about winning football matches more than some add-ons being exercised and why wouldn't we just loan him if we're so worried about add-ons being paid?
 

lex talionis

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Invisible once again. We cannot possibly have any idea whether Amad really is shit in training, but it us a handy excuse to have on hand.
 

Red Royal

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Poor guy should have played enough minutes to be selected to play for and celebrating an AFCON winners medal right now.
 

Lash

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What's Ten Hag doing brining on Mctominay ahead of him and bringing Antony on instead of him is criminal...oh wait.
 

lex talionis

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ETH nailed it bringing on McTominay in search of the match winner. There can be no complaints with not subbing on Amad.

It will be interesting to see whether Amad gets even just two late sub appearances between now and the end of the season. Very doubtful, but we shall see. Antony? Just a guess, but I’ll guess at least six appearances.
 

DWelbz19

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Amad scored twice in three games against Luton last season. Wonder if he'll get a sniff this weekend?
 

Yagami

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Amad scored twice in three games against Luton last season. Wonder if he'll get a sniff this weekend?
In the playoffs, he had night and day performances.

At home, he scored an absolutely brilliant freekick and was good in general. Away, which was the second leg decider, he was targeted by Luton fans because he was Sunderland's biggest threat (one even physically attacked him) and he lost his cool which negatively impacted his game.

This ground won't hold happy memories. If he does get on, which isn't likely, it'll be interesting. I think he'll be determined to score and the Luton fans will target him again.
 

luke511

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He's gotta start
He’s not had any appearances since this comment just over a month ago.. leaving sarcastic comments against a viewpoint you very recently had is a strange angle to take.
 

Lash

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He’s not had any appearances since this comment just over a month ago.. leaving sarcastic comments against a viewpoint you very recently had is a strange angle to take.
Yeah, we've played better since and our front 3 is pretty set. I'm not coming into a thread after a great victory - which manager selection paid off, to moan about him not starting.

I didn't have Garnacho in my mind as a RW option then.
 

Lash

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Antony is yet to prove himself as worthy of playing over Amad though.
Only thing Antony has above him is he's been available. Water will always find it's level and by the end of the season, both will have broken into the side or be earmarked to be moved on.
 

Remember the geese

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Only thing Antony has above him is he's been available. Water will always find it's level and by the end of the season, both will have broken into the side or be earmarked to be moved on.
I don't see why Amad should be moved on. Antony has had his chance and wasn't good enough. Amad should be given a chance to compete with Garnacho for the right sided spot.
 

r0663664

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I think Erik is our problem, I think he wants Rashford to rediscover his form and he wants Antony to justify that the transfer is right. If Amad sucks, then sell him. I think there will be a few takers from EPL and Championship that would take him. The way I see it, Amad is wasting his time at United because of Erik. The only time he gets to play will be an injury to those 2 whihlch is ridiculous considering how bad both of them are this season.
 

lex talionis

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Amad will not get the sniff most of us here agree that he has earned. A waste of a talent who's better than Antony, whom himself has proven the manager made a tragic mistake shoveling 70m into the furnace for him especially when the club's own scouts rated Antony as no worth no more than 25m.