[el3mel]

He played in a midfield 2 in both games. If anything, his role was more attacking vs Swansea because he played in front of a back 5.

In reality, he played quite well in both games but the team won this one so there's less inclination to find someone to blame.

He didn't play well against Huddersfield at all. His performance improved in the second half but that doesn't say much. He was supposed in thus game to drive our attack forward and failed miserably.

His forward passes from deep position has improved against Swansea. Maybe Jose gave him some harsh criticism due to his play style against Huddersfield and ordered him to pass more forward and stop back passing ?

 

[MadMike]

Some people seem incapable of a moderate or balanced opinion on a player, or the performances of a player. They are either amazing or shite. They also seem to have difficulty processing the fact that footballers go in and out of form, they can have good games and bad games.

Herrera was POTY last season and even if that was a bit generous on him, he was undoubtedly one of our best and most consistent performers alongside Ibra and Valencia. Top assist man with 11 assists too. But he starts this season slowly with a couple of bad games against Liverpool and Huddersfield and suddenly he's shit and Bilbao is his level and so on. Never mind the fact that when he was at Bilbao he schooled our midfield and that's why we signed him.

He's obviously not the next Inesta or the next Busquets but undoubtedly he's a good player and very much at the right level at United. Maybe not as a key player but certainly as a very reliable squad player. Much better than most of the squad-level CMs that I can remember us having in the last 20 years or so. When we had any CMs that was.

Anyhow, he was very good tonight and I'm sure over the following weeks he'll recapture the form of last season.

 

[POF]

He didn't play well against Huddersfield at all. His performance improved in the second half but that doesn't say much. He was supposed in thus game to drive our attack forward and failed miserably.

His forward passes from deep position has improved against Swansea. Maybe Jose gave him some harsh criticism due to his play style against Huddersfield and ordered him to pass more forward and stop back passing ?

He wasn't great against Huddersfield but wasn't great against Swansea either. He did some very good things in the Huddersfield game. He won a penalty that wasn't given, had a header saved (the only other attempt on target in the 2nd half I believe), he teed up a great chance for Matic and he played a through ball to Rashford which was really similar to the one for the first goal today. The difference in that game is that Rashford delayed the pass and Mkhitaryan was offside rather than the first time ball for Lingard's goal today.

When you're 2-0 down in a game, good play that doesn't lead to a goal is forgotten or glossed over. When you're 2-0 up and waste a chance, nobody cares.

 

[el3mel]

He wasn't great against Huddersfield but wasn't great against Swansea either. He did some very good things in the Huddersfield game. He won a penalty that wasn't given, had a header saved (the only other attempt on target in the 2nd half I believe), he teed up a great chance for Matic and he played a through ball to Rashford which was really similar to the one for the first goal today. The difference in that game is that Rashford delayed the pass and Mkhitaryan was offside rather than the first time ball for Lingard's goal today.

When you're 2-0 down in a game, good play that doesn't lead to a goal is forgotten or glossed over. When you're 2-0 up and waste a chance, nobody cares.

All these aren't enough for the midfielder supposed to be the attacking one and carry the ball forward imo. He should have done more going forward in this game.

 

[iam_kramer]

I think it's pretty tough to single anyone out in the Huddersfield game, the set up was poor, selection was poor and I find it hard to believe that any of our midfielders would have come out of that game with an 8/10 playing in Ander's place. He was poor though, as were if I remember correctly, all our players.

Against Swansea he played better for sure, as did the team as a whole, but we still didn't play that well, did we? I'm not sure we created chance after chance, and there wasn't much fluency in our attack. We capitalised on an error for the first goal and we kept the defence tighter than against Huddersfield.

 

[ivaldo]

All these aren't enough for the midfielder supposed to be the attacking one and carry the ball forward imo. He should have done more going forward in this game.

And we get to the crux of it. Criticising a player for not preforming well when he isn't playing in his natural position is stupid, it isn't his fault we have an injury crisis. It would be like calling Matic an average player when he inevitably struggles playing as a #10.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some people seem incapable of a moderate or balanced opinion on a player, or the performances of a player. They are either amazing or shite. They also seem to have difficulty processing the fact that footballers go in and out of form, they can have good games and bad games.

Herrera was POTY last season and even if that was a bit generous on him, he was undoubtedly one of our best and most consistent performers alongside Ibra and Valencia. Top assist man with 11 assists too. But he starts this season slowly with a couple of bad games against Liverpool and Huddersfield and suddenly he's shit and Bilbao is his level and so on. Never mind the fact that when he was at Bilbao he schooled our midfield and that's why we signed him.

He's obviously not the next Inesta or the next Busquets but undoubtedly he's a good player and very much at the right level at United. Maybe not as a key player but certainly as a very reliable squad player. Much better than most of the squad-level CMs that I can remember us having in the last 20 years or so. When we had any CMs that was.

Anyhow, he was very good tonight and I'm sure over the following weeks he'll recapture the form of last season.

This is all true. It’s just a pity it’s taken him so long to start showing last season’s form. One of the most disappointing (and damaging) things to happen this season.

 

[POF]

All these aren't enough for the midfielder supposed to be the attacking one and carry the ball forward imo. He should have done more going forward in this game.

So 4 key plays that could have led to goals from central midfield in a 4-2-3-1 system isn't enough? Was there another player (including the 4 forwards in advance of him) who was more threatening?

The simple fact is that the biggest difference between the Huddersfield and Swansea games was the 2 defensive howlers that left United chasing the game - something they haven't had to do all season.

 

[roonster09]

This is all true. It’s just a pity it’s taken him so long to start showing last season’s form. One of the most disappointing (and damaging) things to happen this season.

His first season he was good, only second season was disappointing. Van Gaal used to drop him for no reasons, maybe he didn't follow his instructions correctly but he used to play well in his first season.

 

[el3mel]

And we get to the crux of it. Criticising a player for not preforming well when he isn't playing in his natural position is stupid, it isn't his fault we have an injury crisis. It would be like calling Matic an average player when he inevitably struggles playing as a #10.

Herrera was brought here at first as a more of an attacking midfielder not a defensive, so I won't expect a world class performance but he definitely should do the minimum required in a position he played in it about 2-3 years ago.

So 4 key plays that could have led to goals from central midfield in a 4-2-3-1 system isn't enough? Was there another player (including the 4 forwards in advance of him) who was more threatening?

The simple fact is that the biggest difference between the Huddersfield and Swansea games was the 2 defensive howlers that left United chasing the game - something they haven't had to do all season.

IMO yes he should have done more. The isolation OS our attacking line was due to our midfield unable to get the ball forward and help the attack, as I explained in other threads, if your midfield can't bring the ball forward, the midfielder will drop deeper to get the ball himself resulting in isolation on the 3 attackers and we'll be dependent on some moments of brilliance ( as lukaku's desperate run in our only goal ). The midfield was the main source of problem in such game, as neither Matic nor Herrera could do the attacking job frequently during the 90 minutes.

Yesterday Herrera was definitely looking to play more forward than keeping it safe and back passing.

 

[Butty19]

He seems to play better when he’s given more responsibility. When he’s played along side Matic it’s like he doesn’t seem to quite know what to do or where to be, whether to push on or hang back. Last night he was the main man in midfield and was able to control and dictate play, something he can’t do when Matic is playing.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Much better when creative impetus is not on him. He, in my opinion, should share the holding role, whilst Pogba and Fellaini share the box to box role.

 

[ivaldo]

Herrera was brought here at first as a more of an attacking midfielder not a defensive, so I won't expect a world class performance but he definitely should do the minimum required in a position he played in it about 2-3 years ago.

In a system and a playing style that was in complete contrast to what we have played under since his arrival. Bilbao harried teams relentlessly and turned the ball over high up the pitch, then released it quickly. He was excellent in this role for them but what he is being asked to do in a more advanced position here is nothing like that. The skill set is entirely different which is why he has naturally moved further back where his abilities are better matched.

 

[el3mel]

In a system and a playing style that was in complete contrast to what we have played under since his arrival. Bilbao harried teams relentlessly and turned the ball over high up the pitch, then released it quickly. He was excellent in this role for them but what he is being asked to do in a more advanced position here is nothing like that. The skill set is entirely different which is why he has naturally moved further back where his abilities are better matched.

Even though I agree that Bilbao player a different system than ours, since he was an attacking player before he should definitely have the basics of how to get the ball forward and providing the front players with balls, even if not a world class level but the minimum required. He was very good going forward during LVG first season as well. Since last season he seems to became the opposite player than what he was, very good at being the deep midfielder, intercepting the balls and letting the rest of the team countering, or doing through balls from deep position but anytime he tries to go more forward he looks lost.

 

[ivaldo]

Even though I agree that Bilbao player a different system than ours, since he was an attacking player before he should definitely have the basics of how to get the ball forward and providing the front players with balls, even if not a world class level but the minimum required. He was very good going forward during LVG first season as well. Since last season he seems to became the opposite player than what he was, very good at being the deep midfielder, intercepting the balls and letting the rest of the team countering, or doing through balls from deep position but anytime he tries to go more forward he looks lost.

I’ll disagree there. When presented with an opportunity to play a throughball he rarely disappoints but ask him to dictate play in the middle of the park and be a genuine playmaker? He has never played that role.

 

[el3mel]

I’ll disagree there. When presented with an opportunity to play a throughball he rarely disappoints but ask him to dictate play in the middle of the park and be a genuine playmaker? He has never played that role.

He can do nice through balls from deep position of the midfield if we're having a counter and he has just intercepted the ball , but if he goes more forward and was asked to create the chance, he won't succeed. He was better in this area during LVG first season than now imo, when he was going forward well, shooting and assisting. Now he's more like a deep lying midfielder.

Anyway, I don't think we're disagreeing much about him better to be used as a deep midfielder, a backup to Matic, than being used in Pogba's or Fellaini's position.

 

[ivaldo]

He can do nice through balls from deep position of the midfield if we're having a counter and he has just intercepted the ball , but if he goes more forward and was asked to create the chance, he won't succeed. He was better in this area during LVG first season than now imo, when he was going forward well, shooting and assisting. Now he's more like a deep lying midfielder.

Anyway, I don't think we're disagreeing much about him better to be used as a deep midfielder, a backup to Matic, than being used in Pogba's or Fellaini's position.

Nor me. The criticism for his performances just seem unfair to me, when we all know he isn’t the type of player to be able to come in and do Pogbas job. We aren’t playing him to his strengths and unsurprisingly he isn’t putting in performances anything like last seasons. That doesn’t make him ‘average’ as so many have suggested.

 

[el3mel]

Nor me. The criticism for his performances just seem unfair to me, when we all know he isn’t the type of player to be able to come in and do Pogbas job. We aren’t playing him to his strengths and unsurprisingly he isn’t putting in performances anything like last seasons. That doesn’t make him ‘average’ as so many have suggested.

Yeah I agree that calling him "average" overall is very wrong thought. He should be criticized only on the games he's not performing in, not judging him overall based on these performances. He's still a very good player to use in right position and with certain instructions.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

He will man mark Eriksen. If you stop him there is a good chance you stop Kane. If he plays like he did against Chelsea we win the game.

 

[Stacks]

Even though I agree that Bilbao player a different system than ours, since he was an attacking player before he should definitely have the basics of how to get the ball forward and providing the front players with balls, even if not a world class level but the minimum required. He was very good going forward during LVG first season as well. Since last season he seems to became the opposite player than what he was, very good at being the deep midfielder, intercepting the balls and letting the rest of the team countering, or doing through balls from deep position but anytime he tries to go more forward he looks lost.

Well he has spent the whole year as a lynchpin, which requires a tactical, positional and attitude change so maybe its hard to just switch back. Your body gets its "muscle memory" or whatever and the runs, or thought process you have been doing for 12 months is suddenly no longer necessary. Just an idea. If Tony V played RW now he'd probably be awful. In fact I think he is.

 

[Stacks]

Nor me. The criticism for his performances just seem unfair to me, when we all know he isn’t the type of player to be able to come in and do Pogbas job. We aren’t playing him to his strengths and unsurprisingly he isn’t putting in performances anything like last seasons. That doesn’t make him ‘average’ as so many have suggested.

That's just hyperbole. What clubs fans would call this average?
EPL data
assists 6 = 1st in squad
passes 1947 = 2nd in squad
tackles 81 = 1st in squad
interceptions 78 = 1st in squad
touches 2440 = 2nd in squad.

So he is clearly above average in some things. Problem is that only attacking things count.

 

[TwoSheds]

Played well yesterday. Be interesting to see if that remains the case if Matic comes back in against Spuds.

 

[Kapardin]

That's just hyperbole. What clubs fans would call this average?
EPL data
assists 6 = 1st in squad
passes 1947 = 2nd in squad
tackles 81 = 1st in squad
interceptions 78 = 1st in squad
touches 2440 = 2nd in squad.

So he is clearly above average in some things. Problem is that only attacking things count.

Well, he had the most assists in a squad that scored less than Bournemouth and came 6th. 3 of those assists came in 2 games (Chelsea and Spurs) when he put in exceptional performances that are rarely repeated again, so not really much of a spread either.

Don't deny he tackled and intercepted well, but the prime reason he has the lion's share of that is because Pogba didn't do much in the way of defensive duties (though he improved on that as the season went on) and Carrick was too immobile last season, so he was basically everywhere. Like the typical average squad player, putting in a workhorse performance.

Matic shields the defense better, so that makes him a better DM than Herrera. And Herrera does not do much offensively. Overall, he's a very average player whose passion is earning him way more plaudits with fans. I rate him about as much as Henderson last season, who was solidly unspectacular with the odd good performance for Liverpool.

All this is due to lack of a proper midfield these past few years. Wait till we buy a genuine world class midfielder to complement Matic and Pogba, and more people will understand the difference.

 

[Stacks]

Well, he had the most assists in a squad that scored less than Bournemouth and came 6th. 3 of those assists came in 2 games (Chelsea and Spurs) when he put in exceptional performances that are rarely repeated again, so not really much of a spread either.

Don't deny he tackled and intercepted well, but the prime reason he has the lion's share of that is because Pogba didn't do much in the way of defensive duties (though he improved on that as the season went on) and Carrick was too immobile last season, so he was basically everywhere. Like the typical average squad player, putting in a workhorse performance.
Is Kante average then?
Last season Herrera won more MoTm than Pogba and Zlatan as well as the player of the season which is of course is typical of average players. You know, outperforming certified stars.
Matic shields the defense better, so that makes him a better DM than Herrera. And Herrera does not do much offensively. Overall, he's a very average player whose passion is earning him way more plaudits with fans. I rate him about as much as Henderson last season, who was solidly unspectacular with the odd good performance for Liverpool.

All this is due to lack of a proper midfield these past few years. Wait till we buy a genuine world class midfielder to complement Matic and Pogba, and more people will understand the difference.

Like who? I thought Pogba was world class and Matic is top class. So why do we need yet another world class CM? I don't think anyone in the league has that many. I don't see who you think that is world class, we will be able to poach. forget Verratti for a start. Maybe TC23?

 

[Kapardin]

Like who? I thought Pogba was world class and Matic is top class. So why do we need yet another world class CM? I don't think anyone in the league has that many. I don't see who you think that is world class, we will be able to poach. forget Verratti for a start. Maybe TC23?

No need to get upset. If you think Herrera is good enough, I have no issues with that.

We can certainly do better than Herrera in the market, if not outright world class, for sure. Don't ask me who, Jose will be the one who knows.

Last season Herrera won more MoTm than Pogba and Zlatan as well as the player of the season which is of course is typical of average players. You know, outperforming certified stars.

Course he did. Like I said, lack of a proper DM upped his tackles and interception stats, which made him necessary and hence his defensive work earned him MOTM. Now we know we can do better.

POTY was voted by fans, who naturally like him. Think Valencia got the players' vote. In any case, MOTM/POTY was for a team that came 6th in a below average league season bar the EL and LC wins, so hardly matters.

 

[ivaldo]

Like who? I thought Pogba was world class and Matic is top class. So why do we need yet another world class CM? I don't think anyone in the league has that many. I don't see who you think that is world class, we will be able to poach. forget Verratti for a start. Maybe TC23?

The poster you replied is the type I was talking about it.

he downplays Herreras defensive contribution because apparently Pogba is a lazy shit yet doesn’t use the same logic when Herrera tops our assists. Surely if Herrera is running around like a maniac he wouldn’t have time to lay on any goals? That would be the free loader Pogbas domain, right? It seems the over the top detractors can’t even be bothered to remain consistent any more.

Somehow, a player that topped our assists charts, was the best ball winner in the league, won the most MOTM awards and was our player of the season while attracting attention from Barca is ‘average’. Logic.

 

[Stacks]

No need to get upset. If you think Herrera is good enough, I have no issues with that.
I'm not upset. I thought I was being cheeky. Guess I failed.
We can certainly do better than Herrera in the market, if not outright world class, for sure. Don't ask me who, Jose will be the one who knows.



Course he did. Like I said, lack of a proper DM upped his tackles and interception stats, which made him necessary and hence his defensive work earned him MOTM. Now we know we can do better.

POTY was voted by fans, who naturally like him. Think Valencia got the players' vote. In any case, MOTM/POTY was for a team that came 6th in a below average league season bar the EL and LC wins, so hardly matters.

I am inclined to agree with the rest, although being the best player always matters. If Spurs finished 6th, Kane's exploits don't suddenly become null and void.
What kind of CM would you like though? do we need another deep lying one, a box to box, a destroyer, a skilful one?
I'm thinking a Xavi type but due to my recent lack of footballing knowledge, I have no idea who is of required quality and who is feasible.

 

[Stacks]

The poster you replied is the type I was talking about it.

he downplays Herreras defensive contribution because apparently Pogba is a lazy shit yet doesn’t use the same logic when Herrera tops our assists. Surely if Herrera is running around like a maniac he wouldn’t have time to lay on any goals? That would be the free loader Pogbas domain, right? It seems the over the top detractors can’t even be bothered to remain consistent any more.

Somehow, a player that topped our assists charts, was the best ball winner in the league, won the most MOTM awards and was our player of the season while attracting attention from Barca is ‘average’. Logic.

You got me there and I never use smileys

 

[Kapardin]

The poster you replied is the type I was talking about it.

he downplays Herreras defensive contribution because apparently Pogba is a lazy shit yet doesn’t use the same logic when Herrera tops our assists. Surely if Herrera is running around like a maniac he wouldn’t have time to lay on any goals? That would be the free loader Pogbas domain, right? It seems the over the top detractors can’t even be bothered to remain consistent any more.

I downplayed his defensive contribution? I said he was necessary last season. I downplay it in the light of the fact that our current DM is far better than Herrera in shielding the defense. What was necessary last season, is not adequate this season.

If Herrera was adequate as DM, what was the need to purchase Matic? Could have bought some back-up instead. Obviously, if we need to make a step up, we needed an upgrade.

His defensive contribution last season was bloated by the fact that it was him alone or bust. That makes him a dependable workhorse. Not a bad player, but not a worldie either.

Pogba was our best chance creator last season. Would have got goals and assists in double figures if his teammates had finished chances, and he himself had not hit the crossbar so many times.

Somehow, a player that topped our assists charts, was the best ball winner in the league, won the most MOTM awards and was our player of the season while attracting attention from Barca is ‘average’. Logic.

Barca also bought Andre Gomes and have Valverde as manager. Just because they are interested in Herrera does not make him anything more than Henderson (his level last season) or Cleverley (his level this season).

We don't need ball-winners only. We need a CM who drives forward and constantly aids the attack. Herrera does not influence the attack sufficiently or control the midfield enough in his current position. We have been dire this season whenever he's started.

He is capable of the odd exceptional performance, but follows it up with 10 average ones. Which makes him an average player like so many.

OK, you think he is world class. Let us wait and see what happens by season's end. If he is that good, he should leapfrog Fellaini and become indispensible with Pogba and Matic in midfield.

 

[ivaldo]

I downplayed his defensive contribution? I said he was necessary last season. I downplay it in the light of the fact that our current DM is far better than Herrera in shielding the defense. What was necessary last season, is not adequate this season.

If Herrera was adequate as DM, what was the need to purchase Matic? Could have bought some back-up instead. Obviously, if we need to make a step up, we needed an upgrade.

His defensive contribution last season was bloated by the fact that it was him alone or bust. That makes him a dependable workhorse. Not a bad player, but not a worldie either.

Pogba was our best chance creator last season. Would have got goals and assists in double figures if his teammates had finished chances, and he himself had not hit the crossbar so many times.



Barca also bought Andre Gomes and have Valverde as manager. Just because they are interested in Herrera does not make him anything more than Henderson (his level last season) or Cleverley (his level this season).

We don't need ball-winners only. We need a CM who drives forward and constantly aids the attack. Herrera does not influence the attack sufficiently or control the midfield enough in his current position. We have been dire this season whenever he's started.

He is capable of the odd exceptional performance, but follows it up with 10 average ones. Which makes him an average player like so many.

OK, you think he is world class. Let us wait and see what happens by season's end. If he is that good, he should leapfrog Fellaini and become indispensible with Pogba and Matic in midfield.

Yes you downplay it. Finding lame reasons and then not using that logic in the reverse or even bother to observe this season shows that. Tell me, if Pogba is such a lazy shit why was a) Herrera still able to top the assist chart despite his massive workload and b) Matic hasn’t matched Herreras numbers this season despite playing in a midfield two?

It all makes sense now, if your scale jumps from ‘average’ to ‘world class’ with nothing in between, no wonder you’re struggling here. And comparing him to Cleverley and Henderson?

On that basis should we shit on any player linked to us because we signed Lindelof? I see that logic is following through again.

Chelsea won the league last season with just a ball winner in midfield, and he wasn’t able to win the ball back as often as Herrera had.

Herrera is a superb ball winner with decent ability on the ball. Just because he played DM last season doesn’t make him a DM, despite him getting our player of the year award in it. Every man and his dog can see that but your continual comparison to Matic proves you cannot differentiate between the two.

Mourinho wants a proper DM and the signing of Matic was a great one I fully support. We have no need for a player like Herrera in a midfield two with Matic in there, in a midfield three however it’s a different prospect entirely. In between that he’s a very capable back up to the DM position. Judging his performances in a Pogba-lite position and using it as a basis for his overall ability is ignorant.

 

[Kapardin]

Yes you downplay it. Finding lame reasons and then not using that logic in the reverse or even bother to observe this season shows that. Tell me, if Pogba is such a lazy shit why was a) Herrera still able to top the assist chart despite his massive workload and b) Matic hasn’t matched Herreras numbers this season despite playing in a midfield two?

It all makes sense now, if your scale jumps from ‘average’ to ‘world class’ with nothing in between, no wonder you’re struggling here. And comparing him to Cleverley and Henderson?

If he was not Spanish, nobody would baulk at that comparison. Its' not just me though.

I have already told you, 1) Pogba was our best creator and his teammates missed many chances he laid on a platter, and he also hit the crossbar -- should have got assists and goals in double figures, 2) Herrera was top in the assists chart for a 6th placed team, which is nothing to get excited about.

Yet you keep repeating the same thing. He got 3 assists in 2 games where he put in a couple of exceptional performances. Rest of the season, he was a busy tackler and interceptor thanks to an immobile Carrick, which elevated his importance.

On that basis should we shit on any player linked to us because we signed Lindelof? I see that logic is following through again.

No, my point is that even big clubs scout average players, so bringing up Barcelona's interest in him is not relevant to assessing his skills. It doesn't mean Barcelona only sign average players, does it? Let us not skate the issue.

Chelsea won the league last season with just a ball winner in midfield, and he wasn’t able to win the ball back as often as Herrera had.

Yep, I never said Kante was great shakes either. Just suits Conte's system to a tee.

Herrera is a superb ball winner with decent ability on the ball. Just because he played DM last season doesn’t make him a DM, despite him getting our player of the year award in it. Every man and his dog can see that but your continual comparison to Matic proves you cannot differentiate between the two.

He is not a DM. Fine. Then there is no point in only praising his ball winning abilities as we got an actual DM as well for that. In which case, he should be an AM, who helps out in attack. His goal/assist output is not good enough for an AM either.

Which makes him a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, average player.

Mourinho wants a proper DM and the signing of Matic was a great one I fully support. We have no need for a player like Herrera in a midfield two with Matic in there, in a midfield three however it’s a different prospect entirely. In between that he’s a very capable back up to the DM position. Judging his performances in a Pogba-lite position and using it as a basis for his overall ability is ignorant.

In a midfield three, I would go for someone who scores 10 goals and some assists in addition to Pogba and Matic. Or, someone on the level of Kroos and Modric who don't even need to score consistently to influence an attack. Not someone who keeps getting in the way of Matic and who makes our midfield look dire whenever he comes on. Fellaini has done better than Herrera so far, and I think even Fellaini is average.

But if you say he is a back-up to Matic, then I completely agree with that. He is an average player who is a back-up to a better player.

Every man and his dog, you say. But there are sizeable number of people on this forum and on other sites who feel the same way I do. Certainly, Herrera has a passionate fan following due to his attitude (which is top-notch and very professional), but there are many who view him as average and no more than that, like me.

I am not very happy to consistently rate our players as average. I want our players to be the best obviously. So don't think my saying Herrera is average means I am delighting in his dire performances. If any of these guys - Lindelof, Herrera, etc make me eat my words, I will only be happy because it means we will be in a good position. But I doubt it.

 

[roonster09]

There are only 2 type of midfielders, if not a DM then must be AM

 

[Kapardin]

There are only 2 type of midfielders, if not a DM then must be AM

Or a B2B who does both while actually taking control of the midfield?

No, Herrera is not exceptional at that either. I suggested AM there because he seemed like he could become a decent goal scorer in his first season, but that seems long gone.

 

[parkthebuslads]

Herrera needs to be playing, he has always taken a little time to get back up to speed.

He isn't a great player but imo an in form Herrera would still be making my team.

 

[ivaldo]

There are only 2 type of midfielders, if not a DM then must be AM

I know, right?

If he was not Spanish, nobody would baulk at that comparison. Its' not just me though.

I have already told you, 1) Pogba was our best creator and his teammates missed many chances he laid on a platter, and he also hit the crossbar -- should have got assists and goals in double figures, 2) Herrera was top in the assists chart for a 6th placed team, which is nothing to get excited about.

Yet you keep repeating the same thing. He got 3 assists in 2 games where he put in a couple of exceptional performances. Rest of the season, he was a busy tackler and interceptor thanks to an immobile Carrick, which elevated his importance.



No, my point is that even big clubs scout average players, so bringing up Barcelona's interest in him is not relevant to assessing his skills. It doesn't mean Barcelona only sign average players, does it? Let us not skate the issue.



Yep, I never said Kante was great shakes either. Just suits Conte's system to a tee.



He is not a DM. Fine. Then there is no point in only praising his ball winning abilities as we got an actual DM as well for that. In which case, he should be an AM, who helps out in attack. His goal/assist output is not good enough for an AM either.

Which makes him a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, average player.



In a midfield three, I would go for someone who scores 10 goals and some assists in addition to Pogba and Matic. Or, someone on the level of Kroos and Modric who don't even need to score consistently to influence an attack. Not someone who keeps getting in the way of Matic and who makes our midfield look dire whenever he comes on. Fellaini has done better than Herrera so far, and I think even Fellaini is average.

But if you say he is a back-up to Matic, then I completely agree with that. He is an average player who is a back-up to a better player.

Every man and his dog, you say. But there are sizeable number of people on this forum and on other sites who feel the same way I do. Certainly, Herrera has a passionate fan following due to his attitude (which is top-notch and very professional), but there are many who view him as average and no more than that, like me.

I am not very happy to consistently rate our players as average. I want our players to be the best obviously. So don't think my saying Herrera is average means I am delighting in his dire performances. If any of these guys - Lindelof, Herrera, etc make me eat my words, I will only be happy because it means we will be in a good position. But I doubt it.

It’s got naff all to do with being Spanish, it’s that despite his performances and his statistics proving he is anything but, you continue to make the comparison to devalue him.

Oh wait so now it’s Carricks immobility and not Pogba being a lazy bastard that is the reason why his ability to win the ball has been so high? Or is it because you can’t offer a reason why Matic hasn’t been able to emulate those numbers?

So there’s just the two positions in midfield now is there? I assume in the title winning Chelsea side of last year Kante was the attacking midfielder? Or was it Matic? The former couldn’t possibly be simple a ball winner though could he...

Yeah I do keep repeating the same things because there shouldn’t really be any disputing them. While conversely you’re pulling any excuse or reason you possibly can from thin air to justify your ill though opinion of him. You can’t even decide who’s fault it is that Herrera picked up so many interceptions and tackles.

The man won our player of the year award despite playing in the same team as the most expensive midfielder ever, a striker who has won it all and the worlds best keeper. And yet he is average, makes perfect sense.

Yes every man and his dog can see he is not a DM, even you’ve now begrudgingly admitted it. Where’s the argument?

Certainly wasn’t ‘average’ against Swansea, and lo and behold he wasn’t playing in Pogbas position. Don’t let that correlation get in the way though.

 

[Kapardin]

I know, right?

It’s got naff all to do with being Spanish, it’s that despite his performances and his statistics proving he is anything but, you continue to make the comparison to devalue him.

On the contrary, I am valuing him exactly as he should be valued. Bit part player.

Oh wait so now it’s Carricks immobility and not Pogba being a lazy bastard that is the reason why his ability to win the ball has been so high?

Didn't I say Pogba does not have defensive duties while Carrick was not good enough? Then when the discussion moved to Carrick, I mentioned him alone.

Please read what I said properly. Herrera was a ball-winner because he had to do most of the defensive work last season. This season, Matic is more competent than Carrick and Pogba as usual does not need to shoulder that burden as much. So Herrera is not needed as much, as compared to Fellaini for instance.

Or is it because you can’t offer a reason why Matic hasn’t been able to emulate those numbers?

Chelsea is a different team, and I do not care how Matic was with them.

Season's not over, and in any case, there is no need for stats to see that Matic is streets above Herrera in that position. Denying that would be denying the obvious. Are you seriously implying Herrera can be better than Matic...

Furthermore, if we have improved this season, there would be lesser number of tackles and interceptions made. So many factors go into stats. Basic eyesight is enough to rate Matic over Herrera.

So there’s just the two positions in midfield now is there? I assume in the title winning Chelsea side of last year Kante was the attacking midfielder? Or was it Matic? The former couldn’t possibly be simple a ball winner though could he...

Eh? Kante didn't need to do creative work in that Chelsea team. As I mentioned before, our system needs more than a "simple ball winner" to coast to the title.

I'd like to know if Herrera is an effective B2B. Answer is, he is not. He is not Modric or Kroos that he can take games by the scruff of the neck without racking up amazing assist/goal stats. It doesn't even bear thinking about. Hence, I cited two midfield positions based on his attacking output in his first season and his defensive output when he is playing in that role.

The idea is, He is not an AM like Pogba who is clearly a superb chance creator. He is not a good enough DM like Matic. His passing range is limited.

Bang average then.

Yeah I do keep repeating the same things because there shouldn’t really be any disputing them. While conversely you’re pulling any excuse or reason you possibly can from thin air to justify your ill though opinion of him. You can’t even decide who’s fault it is that Herrera picked up so many interceptions and tackles.

Nah, there are many who disagree with your opinion, because they simply do not rate Herrera as high as you do. Have you seen the analysis done on him by people on twitter? You are either purposely or inadvertently missing what I said, but there is no two ways about it.

The man won our player of the year award despite playing in the same team as the most expensive midfielder ever, a striker who has won it all and the worlds best keeper. And yet he is average, makes perfect sense.

I repeat, he was voted as POTY by fans. In a season we came 6th. Not hard to see that he is highly overrated by fans.

The most expensive midfielder was our best chance creator, and I repeat, had our other teammates not missed the chances Pogba laid to them on a plate, he would have ended up with 15-20 assists. Add the crossbar finishing to that.

Yes every man and his dog can see he is not a DM, even you’ve now begrudgingly admitted it. Where’s the argument?

Yep, he is not a good DM, he is not a good AM, he should not even be considered for the B2B role.

Certainly wasn’t ‘average’ against Swansea, and lo and behold he wasn’t playing in Pogbas position. Don’t let that correlation get in the way though.

Yes, a weak Swansea side is the best barometer for assessing his contribution, is it?

Why stop there? He can play a blinder against a top team if he is used in the right way, as he was in the Chelsea game at OT last season. Basically, a workhorse who can put in an exceptional performance or two.

Herrera is not good enough for our team. If you feel otherwise, that is perfectly fine by me, but do not expect others to stop calling him average when they see fit.

EDIT: Leave all this. Let us see if he first leapfrogs Fellaini in the pecking order and nails a starting spot. If he does that, he certainly deserves praise. If he doesn't do this, then his limitations are obvious. I hope you agree to this.

 

[Green_Red]

I like him a lot. Bit I said when we signed Matic it was a signing that would end his United career. I wouldn't be surprised to see him move on and do really well somewhere else at the end of this year.

 

[Kapardin]

I like him a lot. Bit I said when we signed Matic it was a signing that would end his United career. I wouldn't be surprised to see him move on and do really well somewhere else at the end of this year.

My point exactly. I am not saying he wouldn't succeed elsewhere. Maybe a top team with a system that compensates for his weaknesses, like Conte's does for Kante, or more likely, a midtable club.

I have nothing against Herrera. I appreciate his professionalism and his footballing intelligence (the way he asked Mkhi to position himself for the goal against Ajax in the EL final for instance). But I do not think we should be bigging up such players as though they are world beaters if we want the club to progress to the very top. Tolerating average/mediocre players and performances has been a staple for the last few years.

 

[Alfie092]

Some people seem incapable of a moderate or balanced opinion on a player, or the performances of a player. They are either amazing or shite. They also seem to have difficulty processing the fact that footballers go in and out of form, they can have good games and bad games.

Herrera was POTY last season and even if that was a bit generous on him, he was undoubtedly one of our best and most consistent performers alongside Ibra and Valencia. Top assist man with 11 assists too. But he starts this season slowly with a couple of bad games against Liverpool and Huddersfield and suddenly he's shit and Bilbao is his level and so on. Never mind the fact that when he was at Bilbao he schooled our midfield and that's why we signed him.

He's obviously not the next Inesta or the next Busquets but undoubtedly he's a good player and very much at the right level at United. Maybe not as a key player but certainly as a very reliable squad player. Much better than most of the squad-level CMs that I can remember us having in the last 20 years or so. When we had any CMs that was.

Anyhow, he was very good tonight and I'm sure over the following weeks he'll recapture the form of last season.

Agree fully! Such a consistent performer last season. Apart from the start of last season, where if I remember correctly, he also started slowly then as well and was benched often for Fellaini but he was well up and running by September/October last year and was regularly in the team.

It's a shame that didn't happen this season when we needed him to perform most, especially once Pogba and Fellaini obtained their injuries

Herrera is one of my favourite players at United and I hope he starts to show some consistent form. I would also like Mourinho to try a midfield trio of Herrera - Matic - Pogba for a few games. I think he has only tried that once this season.

Having said that, I still believe we need another midfielder signed, not only to challenge the starting 11 players but also to add squad depth. For the past couple of years, we always seem to go through a period during a season where we have around 5-6 players injured in one go! Add to the fact during this period 1 or 2 may be out of form, even with our huge squad size we are unable to rotate and this has led us to dropping vital points. I thought maybe once Jose came in our injury curse would end but I thought wrong!

 

[ivaldo]

On the contrary, I am valuing him exactly as he should be valued. Bit part player.



Didn't I say Pogba does not have defensive duties while Carrick was not good enough? Then when the discussion moved to Carrick, I mentioned him alone.

Please read what I said properly. Herrera was a ball-winner because he had to do most of the defensive work last season. This season, Matic is more competent than Carrick and Pogba as usual does not need to shoulder that burden as much. So Herrera is not needed as much, as compared to Fellaini for instance.



Chelsea is a different team, and I do not care how Matic was with them.

Season's not over, and in any case, there is no need for stats to see that Matic is streets above Herrera in that position. Denying that would be denying the obvious. Are you seriously implying Herrera can be better than Matic...

Furthermore, if we have improved this season, there would be lesser number of tackles and interceptions made. So many factors go into stats. Basic eyesight is enough to rate Matic over Herrera.



Eh? Kante didn't need to do creative work in that Chelsea team. As I mentioned before, our system needs more than a "simple ball winner" to coast to the title.

I'd like to know if Herrera is an effective B2B. Answer is, he is not. He is not Modric or Kroos that he can take games by the scruff of the neck without racking up amazing assist/goal stats. It doesn't even bear thinking about. Hence, I cited two midfield positions based on his attacking output in his first season and his defensive output when he is playing in that role.

The idea is, He is not an AM like Pogba who is clearly a superb chance creator. He is not a good enough DM like Matic. His passing range is limited.

Bang average then.



Nah, there are many who disagree with your opinion, because they simply do not rate Herrera as high as you do. Have you seen the analysis done on him by people on twitter? You are either purposely or inadvertently missing what I said, but there is no two ways about it.



I repeat, he was voted as POTY by fans. In a season we came 6th. Not hard to see that he is highly overrated by fans.

The most expensive midfielder was our best chance creator, and I repeat, had our other teammates not missed the chances Pogba laid to them on a plate, he would have ended up with 15-20 assists. Add the crossbar finishing to that.



Yep, he is not a good DM, he is not a good AM, he should not even be considered for the B2B role.



Yes, a weak Swansea side is the best barometer for assessing his contribution, is it?

Why stop there? He can play a blinder against a top team if he is used in the right way, as he was in the Chelsea game at OT last season. Basically, a workhorse who can put in an exceptional performance or two.

Herrera is not good enough for our team. If you feel otherwise, that is perfectly fine by me, but do not expect others to stop calling him average when they see fit.

EDIT: Leave all this. Let us see if he first leapfrogs Fellaini in the pecking order and nails a starting spot. If he does that, he certainly deserves praise. If he doesn't do this, then his limitations are obvious. I hope you agree to this.

You moved the conversation to Carrick, not I nor anyone else. You wanted to discuss it being Carricks immobility for the reason as soon as you were challenged to explain the comparison to an identical situation but with Matic in Herreras place this season. At this point it just seems like you’re throwing as much shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Kroos and Modric aren’t box to box players you lemon. If you’re going to make a comparison, at least get it right.

Again your comparison makes zero sense. Matic hasn’t partnered Carrick this season so it’s redundant and Herrera didn’t in a 2 either last season. We are still playing with two in midfield and one of those two is Pogba. There’s your direct comparison, stop trying to muddy the waters because you can’t back up your point.

I repeat, despite us finishing 6th we still had the likes of Ibra, Pogba and DDG in the side. If it was no great achievement to get POTY then you’re saying those aforementioned players were shit last year, basically.

Oh the hypocrisy. You hold up the opinions of others who share your view as an example, yet want to decredit the opinions of the fans who voted for him last season? Make your mind up, either the fans opinion matters or it doesn’t.

No, and a team with Pogba and our front 4 shouldn’t need to have 2 of three central players as creative players anyway. Again, I’ve given you a perfectly fine example of an excellent ball winner who was integral in his side winning the league and you want to dismiss it.

Hasn’t stopped other players being criticised against other weak opposition, has it? The point was a perfectly simple one, there’s no surprise he performed much, much better when he wasn’t being played out of position.