Ander Herrera Revisited

Ekeke

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People have become too hung up on his poty award. For context we finished 6th place that season, and if not for Zlatan's unfortunate injury he would have got it 100%.
In EL where we did something of note I would say Pogba, Mkhi and Rashford were miles better and more important than him.
Good player but nothing special in all his time here. He had some fantastic games, but more times he was invisible and failed to influence the games.
His shooting technique was really bad also.
We're finishing 5th place this season and it doesnt mean Rashford and AWB havent been great.
 

jackal&hyde

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Not at all. I think Fred has become a decent player, but one whose performances are being amplified because of how shit he had been before. Herrera's POTY season, especially with the shit around him, saw him regularly pull out more than we get from Fred. If he were still here I'm not sure it would be in debate, or that Fred would be getting in the side at all if everyone were fit.

I think @ivaldo said it earlier in the thread, but I cannot see how he would have done badly in our current set up. He's pretty much perfect for one of those two roles in Solskjaers side.
His inability to progress play was one of the main reasons we were so reliant on Pogba to do everything related to attack and transition; with Pogba marked or in poor form, we were dead in the water with Matic and Herrera only capable of side way passes. Fred does what Herrera does plus a lot more ball progression. This was the reason we bought him in the first place imo, an upgrade on Ander.
 

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His inability to progress play was one of the main reasons we were so reliant on Pogba to do everything related to attack and transition; with Pogba marked or in poor form, we were dead in the water with Matic and Herrera only capable of side way passes. Fred does what Herrera does plus a lot more ball progression. This was the reason we bought him in the first place imo, an upgrade on Ander.
Ander made more forward passes than any of our CMs other than Pogba last season, that includes Fred.

Without signing Bruno we missed Pogba this season too so no change there.
 

Adam-Utd

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Think this thread would look a little different if Fred didn't turn into superman
 

jackal&hyde

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Ander made more forward passes than any of our CMs other than Pogba last season, that includes Fred.

Without signing Bruno we missed Pogba this season too so no change there.
Then you can see how much better this season would have been compared to last had Fred had the benefit of having Pogba (or Bruno) for the season, like Ander did.
 

jackal&hyde

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I dont believe it is. The season before last we had the best defensive record with those players. £175 million of players would only have helped them get back to their best. Smalling did it without them or teammates of much quality at Roma.

Sheffield United and Leicester have reached those levels of defensive solidarity without all the resources we have. Its simply a case that we used all that money to get by without our reliable defensive players, instead of adding to them and being rock solid. Usually if you have a big restructure like that its paid in part by departing players. In our case it was Lukaku money... Smalling was on loan and Ander recouped us nothing.
This is something that intrigues me. How can we possibly discus those seasons defensive records while not pointing out that almost on a game by game basis DDG was superhuman. We were conceding chances and shots galore and if we had the DDG of today or any other normal goalkeeper things would have been very bleak for the team and defensive players in particular. We have had massive improvements in this department since we replaced Young with AWB and Smalling with Maguire. There is work to be done for sure, but keep in mind that except for Shaw and Lindelof none of the players from the back 4 had ever played together before; even so, the chances created against has dropped massively.
 

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On balance I think he would have been a help rather than a hindrance over the season, especially since we had an injury crisis in midfield at one point. But nothing about either his form or our form since he left makes me think it was a mistake for him to leave.
 

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He's a good, modern midfielder who can add certain qualities to the midfield but he came to United at a time when we were desperately lacking quality on the ball in the middle of the park and Herrera was shoehorned in roles he could not fully adapt. Or maybe he never really got a proper chance to adjust his natural game and become (one of) the player(s) we needed him to become since both LvG and Mourinho used him as their errand boy who would be called up whenever we had to deal with mishaps due to injuries and bad planning.

What we got in Herrera was a midfielder who could excel in pressing tactics and in fighting for those all-important second balls in the attacking half (the ones that allow a team to stay high up the pitch). He also showed on several occasions that when the team could keep the ball and string two or three passes together in the final third, he could come from the second line of attack, occupy the right half-space and either shoot, create momentum for a first-time cross by passing to the overlapping FB or cross the ball to the far post. The two best managers in the world right now, although their philosophies about what constitutes a functional midfield differ, build their midfield around players who possess these qualities. They're not the only two qualities they look for in their midfielders but they are a prerequisite nonetheless.

Does this make Herrera a world-class footballer? No, it doesn't. His positional discipline, when asked to screen the defence, is lacking. He's strong but he can't run with the ball through the lines. He knew how to use his first touch to open up an angle for a pass but he was never the player who could dictate play from deep and organize our plays. He shined when he had attackers attacking spaces as passing options.

What marked LvG's midfield plans was the overreliance on an ageing Carrick, the merry-go-round with Blind's position and the debacles with Morgan and Bastian. Herrera started in his "natural" position but our build-up issues (slower than a snail's pace) always forced him deeper, in spaces where his best qualities were less effective. He never shirked away from responsibility. Toward the end od 14/15, he was called up to screen the defence (after Carrick was injured) and help the team finish in the top-four. He never complained. At some point in 15/16, when all LvG's choices in the #10 role had failed, Herrera was utilized there too. And in the short time he played there (before he got injured), he tried his best and the team looked to gain momentum too.

Then in comes Mourinho who doesn't give a toss about pressing and favours positional discipline over everything else in the midfield. Still, Herrera manages to become a viable option and he is even trusted with "special assignments" like marking Hazard all over the pitch.

I believe this is why he was so popular among the fans. We could have used a player with more quality on the ball and organizing skills, especially with rigid managers like LvG and Mourinho, but it's not his fault that two managers spent millions on players and failed to find solutions to our midfield problems. With McT on the rise, it was probably a good idea not to offer Herrera the contract he wanted. But that doesn't make him a bad or an average footballer. He's just not a player who will carry the whole team on his shoulders. I still believe that if he had signed for Liverpool instead for United and Klopp had the opportunity to use him in his tactics, Herrera's time in England would have been perceived in a much more positive way.
 
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Inter Yer Nan

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Herrera was one of my favorite players for years. He was not a world class player and I can’t help but think he wasn’t utilized properly. Having said that, Fred is a better player than him, so we aren’t missing him greatly but I do wish we’d have tied him down to an extension earlier because he’d definitely be a useful player and person to have around.
 

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Then you can see how much better this season would have been compared to last had Fred had the benefit of having Pogba (or Bruno) for the season, like Ander did.
He had Pogba last season. Under the same circumstances Ander was better
 

hmchan

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Ander made more forward passes than any of our CMs other than Pogba last season, that includes Fred.

Without signing Bruno we missed Pogba this season too so no change there.
Playing timeTotal forward passesTotal completed passesForward pass %Through ballsAccurate long balls
Pogba​
3011​
1136​
1713​
66.3​
15​
165​
Matic​
2441​
768​
1596​
48.1​
3​
109​
Herrera​
1404​
457​
860​
53.1​
3​
33​
Fred​
1045​
358​
664​
53.9​
3​
60​
McTominay​
861​
187​
374​
50.0​
1​
17​

Sources:
Playing time - Soccerway
Forward passes - https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2018_2019/ranking/jugadores/pases_adelante_buenos/
Completed passes - https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2018_2019/ranking/jugadores/pases_buenos/
Through balls & long balls - Premier League

As you can see, Herrera was just comparable to last season's Fred in terms of making forward passes (Fred has improved to 58.6% this season). He also made much fewer long balls and the same number of through balls as compared to last season's Fred, despite playing 359 minutes more. All these evidence points to the fact that Fred is much better in terms of ball progression.
 

Ekeke

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Playing timeTotal forward passesTotal completed passesForward pass %Through ballsAccurate long balls
Pogba​
3011​
1136​
1713​
66.3​
15​
165​
Matic​
2441​
768​
1596​
48.1​
3​
109​
Herrera​
1404​
457​
860​
53.1​
3​
33​
Fred​
1045​
358​
664​
53.9​
3​
60​
McTominay​
861​
187​
374​
50.0​
1​
17​

Sources:
Playing time - Soccerway
Forward passes - https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2018_2019/ranking/jugadores/pases_adelante_buenos/
Completed passes - https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2018_2019/ranking/jugadores/pases_buenos/
Through balls & long balls - Premier League

As you can see, Herrera was just comparable to last season's Fred in terms of making forward passes (Fred has improved to 58.6% this season). He also made much fewer long balls and the same number of through balls as compared to last season's Fred, despite playing 359 minutes more. All these evidence points to the fact that Fred is much better in terms of ball progression.
Pass

Been through this like 5 times already

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ander-herrera-to-psg-gone.445997/page-51#post-23953817

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ander-herrera-2018-19-performances.440078/page-49#post-24041223

Also my mistake, I keep remembering it as 2nd behind Pogba for forward passes. Ander made the most forward passes not 2nd.
 

MattofManchester

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Once again, I feel like there is a shaded view of a player that fans like to see to suit the image that they want to project of a player.
Does anybody actually know that Herrera left because we wouldn't meet a huge wage demand? Or is everyone suddenly shaming a player because they've read news reports stating as much, and believe them, yet claim everything else the papers report are rubbish.

From what he said, Herrera's issue didn't seem to be financial. The previous year, Herrera stated that he was hoping to stay at the club as he loves the club. The next year, he talks about United and him not being on the same page. That could mean anything. From playing time to wages to just generally the state of the club. It's not safe to assume.
We also signed Fred, who literally strikes me as a player that we signed to do the exact same thing that Herrera was signed to do. The difference being that Fred, playing worse, was persisted with by Solskjaer. Herrera, did excellently when Solskjaer came in, then picked up the injury, and after the contract issue, didn't play again. Fred played himself into improvement. Was Herrera ever played consistently enough to improve, in a consistent role?

He's gone, and it's all done and dusted, but I think that he did have an effective impact in a squad that was utterly dire. At one point, we had Paddy McNair and Tyler Blackett starting ffs. He's a good player, but he's a supportive player. He can't carry the team on his shoulders, and I've found that this is what many fans expect of every single signing these days. If this was the case under Fergie, I imagine the current fan mentality would deem the likes of Park, Fletcher and Brown as "average" players.
 

hmchan

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Pass

Been through this like 5 times already

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ander-herrera-to-psg-gone.445997/page-51#post-23953817

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ander-herrera-2018-19-performances.440078/page-49#post-24041223

Also my mistake, I keep remembering it as 2nd behind Pogba for forward passes. Ander made the most forward passes not 2nd.
So you've been through this 5 times and still haven't identified the problem? The stats you provided had a huge sampling bias as they only included his first 15 games of the season, in which he only played the full 90 minutes in 6 of them. Then you selected "per 90 metrics" so that his performance in several minutes could be scaled up to an unbelievable level. For example he made 4 passes in his 5-minute appearance against Everton on 28 October 2018, it'd be counted as making 72 passes in 90 minutes. That's why so many numbers in your chart looked so silly and McTominay had unreal stats in so many areas. It clearly favored players with fewer playing time especially those who didn't play the full 90 minutes.
 

Dr Foo

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He was a great servant and engine, decent footballer. POTY aside, Mourinho and LVG misused or neglected him at times. Herrera was integral to Ole's great start, unlocking Pogba to do the damage. We fell apart towards the end of last season when he got injured. While it's definitely a blessing in disguise that his departure has enabled McT and Fred to develop so capably, he still would have added depth to our midfield now. Whether he is worth the supposed wage demands is another matter, or whatever other behind the scene factors we are not aware of.
 

Ekeke

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So you've been through this 5 times and still haven't identified the problem? The stats you provided had a huge sampling bias as they only included his first 15 games of the season, in which he only played the full 90 minutes in 6 of them. Then you selected "per 90 metrics" so that his performance in several minutes could be scaled up to an unbelievable level. For example he made 4 passes in his 5-minute appearance against Everton on 28 October 2018, it'd be counted as making 72 passes in 90 minutes. That's why so many numbers in your chart looked so silly and McTominay had unreal stats in so many areas. It clearly favored players with fewer playing time especially those who didn't play the full 90 minutes.
The "problem" is your agenda.

The stats are from 15 of his 16 starts in the league. It misses 1 start after.

If we put that 1 start to the side, its missing 6 sub appearances which average 51 minutes each and sub appearances are generally a bad marker. The match you're talking about is a sub appearance, those arent counted. Only starts. You identified yourself why looking at starts and per 90 mins are a much better idea, well done. Thats what it is.

It doesn't look silly at all. Ander often played a pass on the floor into a front player dropping back to get involved. He didnt play many defense splitting passes but those arent the only forward passes. He also played from deep so had players further up the pitch than him. When he got forward it tended to be a run from deep for a pass into the final third to him, thats where his goals came from.
 

Ekeke

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We all know Fred did not adapt until this season. There is even more to come from him imo.
This season where we happen to have invested a load of money on defensive players that Ander didnt get to play with?

How convenient that we compare that with Ander last season but not Fred Vs Ander from last season where they both played with the same players.
 

edcunited1878

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I dont believe it is. The season before last we had the best defensive record with those players. £175 million of players would only have helped them get back to their best. Smalling did it without them or teammates of much quality at Roma.

Sheffield United and Leicester have reached those levels of defensive solidarity without all the resources we have. Its simply a case that we used all that money to get by without our reliable defensive players, instead of adding to them and being rock solid. Usually if you have a big restructure like that its paid in part by departing players. In our case it was Lukaku money... Smalling was on loan and Ander recouped us nothing.
The season before was due more towards Mourinho being smart with what he had at his disposal to generate results, i.e. the talent wasn't good enough. The RB situation was always a glaring hole and Maguire was a United target a full year before he eventually signed. Herrera was a passive solution. By that I mean he was good defensively, but he didn't contribute much going forward or when United had good possession.

Leicester's "defensive solidarity" isn't even that significant compared to United. Again, only 2 less goals conceded and they have the much better defensive midfielder in N'didi and the more consistent leftback in Chilwell. So it's a push between United and Leicester. And Leicester have stopped scoring goals compared to the first half of the season, which has seen them slow down quite a bit in terms of picking up full results/points.

United don't need to sell players to fund other sales. Lukaku wanted to leave, yet United still targeted Maguire and AWB throughout the months before the summer transfer window. Then Bruno was signed for 40+ million pounds, yet nobody was sold. United can afford the larger transfer fees whether it's a larger initial payment with smaller payments, or traditional payments paid on a reoccurring payment schedule. Where United are smart is the wages, which saw some relief from Sanchez and Young, maybe Smalling but I don't know his loan terms off the top of my head. Ander didn't deserve the wages he was looking for and at that point of his career, he wasn't going to be a bang on starter for those wages. He was a squad player.
 

shamans

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The "problem" is your agenda.

The stats are from 15 of his 16 starts in the league. It misses 1 start after.

If we put that 1 start to the side, its missing 6 sub appearances which average 51 minutes each and sub appearances are generally a bad marker. The match you're talking about is a sub appearance, those arent counted. Only starts. You identified yourself why looking at starts and per 90 mins are a much better idea, well done. Thats what it is.

It doesn't look silly at all. Ander often played a pass on the floor into a front player dropping back to get involved. He didnt play many defense splitting passes but those arent the only forward passes. He also played from deep so had players further up the pitch than him. When he got forward it tended to be a run from deep for a pass into the final third to him, thats where his goals came from.
You don't need stats to know he's not a better forward passer than Pogba or Fred.
 

Ekeke

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The season before was due more towards Mourinho being smart with what he had at his disposal to generate results, i.e. the talent wasn't good enough. The RB situation was always a glaring hole and Maguire was a United target a full year before he eventually signed. Herrera was a passive solution. By that I mean he was good defensively, but he didn't contribute much going forward or when United had good possession.

Leicester's "defensive solidarity" isn't even that significant compared to United. Again, only 2 less goals conceded and they have the much better defensive midfielder in N'didi and the more consistent leftback in Chilwell. So it's a push between United and Leicester. And Leicester have stopped scoring goals compared to the first half of the season, which has seen them slow down quite a bit in terms of picking up full results/points.

United don't need to sell players to fund other sales. Lukaku wanted to leave, yet United still targeted Maguire and AWB throughout the months before the summer transfer window. Then Bruno was signed for 40+ million pounds, yet nobody was sold. United can afford the larger transfer fees whether it's a larger initial payment with smaller payments, or traditional payments paid on a reoccurring payment schedule. Where United are smart is the wages, which saw some relief from Sanchez and Young, maybe Smalling but I don't know his loan terms off the top of my head. Ander didn't deserve the wages he was looking for and at that point of his career, he wasn't going to be a bang on starter for those wages. He was a squad player.
I completely disagree, we looked tactically bereft and our defense was overworked - DDG made some great saves but he and the defense werent protected by the rest of the players in front of them. Last season when he came in Ander did a better job protecting the defense by being a ball winning machine and getting in good positions to snuff out attacks than Matic had done. But despite that we still gave up a lot of chances and goals because Matic was poor, Young wasnt very good defensively and our CBs looked like they had very little confidence after Mourinho said they were all crap and we needed new ones the summer before and then proceeded to throw midfielders into 3 man defences (Ander Vs. Spurs, McTominay and then Fellaini playing as an extra CB) instead of just sending out the defenders to do a normal defensive job like the previous season where they did well.
 

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Seems the board weren't willing to offer the same amount of money P$G were and I don't blame them as much as I wouldn't have minded him staying.

I agreed with not matching the wages offered to him as offering ridiculous wages to average to below average players had gotten us in a mess in terms of wage structure.

Now in hindsight, they've proven to be quite justified with McTominay and Fred stepping up in his place.
 

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I loved him. Cracking engine. Did the dirty work well and was one of our only true fighters under the previous managers. You could tell he really loved the club and totally bought into trying everything to make us successful again. He never complained about being dropped and always played out of his skin. Top professional and we could have really used him at the start of the season.

All that said if he was going to be asking for 200k plus a week then in the long run the club actually made the correct decision. I was gutted to see him leave but hats off to whoever finally said this player isn’t worth that money to this club. I get that he’s paid a lot at PSG to sit on the bench but they probably feel he’s a really good squad option and they didn’t have to pay a transfer fee so it’s worked out ok for all concerned really. I actually wonder if Herrera regrets moving though. I don’t quite understand though after all is that this is the same club who gave new deals to mata Jones and lingard and 5 fecking years to Sanchez and Rooney. Hopefully we are learning from our mistakes.
 

edcunited1878

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I completely disagree, we looked tactically bereft and our defense was overworked - DDG made some great saves but he and the defense werent protected by the rest of the players in front of them. Last season when he came in Ander did a better job protecting the defense by being a ball winning machine and getting in good positions to snuff out attacks than Matic had done. But despite that we still gave up a lot of chances and goals because Matic was poor, Young wasnt very good defensively and our CBs looked like they had very little confidence after Mourinho said they were all crap and we needed new ones the summer before and then proceeded to throw midfielders into 3 man defences (Ander Vs. Spurs, McTominay and then Fellaini playing as an extra CB) instead of just sending out the defenders to do a normal defensive job like the previous season where they did well.
I was referencing the year United finished 2nd, assume we're referencing the same year. It was a very grafting and grinding campaign in the league. Going forward was inconsistent and seemed a bit tactically lost or unstructured.

When you isolate the central midfielders/defensive midfielders, it is a much better level when you don't have Herrera. Matic/Fred/McTominay v. Matic/Herrera/McTominay. The M/F/McT trio all balance each other out nicely, there are no clear redundancies. However, M/H/McT there are more redundancies across this trio, yet the only difference is Fred v. Herrera. Fred is the better piece to the midfield puzzle.

I loved Ander and his attitude and effort when he was at United, just like the majority of people. But putting that aside, he was one of the first people in midfield I couldn't wait to replace because his overall ability and contribution was very limiting and could be upgraded rather quickly. Then came Fred, who did need time to adjust but has already shown his value and importance. He makes all this teammates better defensively, going forward, with/without the ball, etc.

The coming and goings of players is a bit hindsight and revisionist because you're then trying to project how a player will adjust to their surroundings when you just have to see their individual input and how that can translate into individual output and team output. Herrera's best position was a destroying 6 as you said, and I agree. However, Matic while slow, has much better composure on the ball and has a better passing range than Herrera from deeper positions which allows for more space between teammates and proactive possession. Fred as an 8 is easily better than Herrera, but then his energy and robustness allows him (Fred) to win the ball and transition forward or control the tempo of play, of switch much greater than Herrera did.
 

lex talionis

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I loved him. Cracking engine. Did the dirty work well and was one of our only true fighters under the previous managers. You could tell he really loved the club and totally bought into trying everything to make us successful again. He never complained about being dropped and always played out of his skin. Top professional and we could have really used him at the start of the season.

All that said if he was going to be asking for 200k plus a week then in the long run the club actually made the correct decision. I was gutted to see him leave but hats off to whoever finally said this player isn’t worth that money to this club. I get that he’s paid a lot at PSG to sit on the bench but they probably feel he’s a really good squad option and they didn’t have to pay a transfer fee so it’s worked out ok for all concerned really. I actually wonder if Herrera regrets moving though. I don’t quite understand though after all is that this is the same club who gave new deals to mata Jones and lingard and 5 fecking years to Sanchez and Rooney. Hopefully we are learning from our mistakes.
Beautifully put.

Although I wish we didn't have to let Ander go it really was the right decision to let him go. And praise the gods Fred and Scott came through as fantastically as they have -- both of them -- this season.

Not that Ander would ever have been satisfied being a squad man for us, but imagine the destruction we could have wrought on the league this season had we had Ander instead of Andreas...and of course Bruno from the beginning of the season and Paul not in the physioroom for essentially the entire season.
 

UnitedFan93

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At the time I was upset he was leaving because he was one of our best midfielders. Looking at it now though, Fred and McTominay are both better than him and Bruno and Pogba are on another level to either or those. If he was still here he’d be well down on the list and sometimes I’d even play Matic ahead of him when we needed a pure shield and height was an issue with the opposition.
Mir looked like the wrong time, but it was actually the right time for him to go.
Agree.

He wouldn't get in our midfield now.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I liked Herrera. He provided that balance to our midfield. His energy was ridiculous, but I feel in Fred and McTominay, we have worthy replacements. Players that are more adventurous, too. Always felt Herrera was way too safe in possession.
 

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I liked Herrera. He provided that balance to our midfield. His energy was ridiculous, but I feel in Fred and McTominay, we have worthy replacements. Players that are more adventurous, too. Always felt Herrera was way too safe in possession.
I have this niggling feeling that he was stunted by LVG and he stayed in that worker bee mode under Jose. If you look at his work before he came to United and even in his first while here he was a much more rounded player getting forward and playing defence splitting passes as well as his graft. I feel he willingly gave up that side of his game for the good of the team and the fact LVG would pull him if he took risks and gave the ball away at all. It’s redundant now anyway but I loved how he just kept going and loved a dirty 50/50 we haven’t had enough players like that post Fergie. Captain material.
 

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I have this niggling feeling that he was stunted by LVG and he stayed in that worker bee mode under Jose. If you look at his work before he came to United and even in his first while here he was a much more rounded player getting forward and playing defence splitting passes as well as his graft. I feel he willingly gave up that side of his game for the good of the team and the fact LVG would pull him if he took risks and gave the ball away at all. It’s redundant now anyway but I loved how he just kept going and loved a dirty 50/50 we haven’t had enough players like that post Fergie. Captain material.
Good point actually. I remember him against us when he was at Bilbao. Granted he was playing slightly higher up, he seemed a lot more creative and willing to try things. He altered his game into more of a box to box destroyer for us, and to be fair to him, he did a very good job at it.
 

NinjaZombie

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I disagree with all those who are saying Fred is the clearly the better player.

The way people go on, you'd think Fred was Roy Keane and Herrera was Mark Noble.
 

NoPace

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He'd have been much better than Pereira or Lingard in a workmanlike 3 man midfield this year with Fred and McTominay/Matic, but 5 years was way too long unless we thought he was going to drop back and become our starting #6 for a few seasons like Gabi and others did.

I suppose we should have extended him earlier to say the end of the 2022 season (that last year would have been his age 32 season) and then we could have sold him this coming summer or next year with one year left (so for like 10M or so, not a huge figure, presumably to Spain because he'd still be a decent signing for a team 5th-8th, or Italy because they seem amenable to buying older players) to recoup the extra money we gave him, and we'd have had him in the midfield this past year and one more.
 

Ali Dia

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I disagree with all those who are saying Fred is the clearly the better player.

The way people go on, you'd think Fred was Roy Keane and Herrera was Mark Noble.
Lol! very good!

I love Ander as you can see but I think Fred’s performances this year overall have been better than anything ander has produced over a season. Anders games against Chelsea stand out in my mind but Fred is my POTS and he can still improve. If he comes back and does this again next season then there will be no doubt in my mind who the better of the 2 is. Fred’s improvement has been crazy
 

roseguy64

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Once again, I feel like there is a shaded view of a player that fans like to see to suit the image that they want to project of a player.
Does anybody actually know that Herrera left because we wouldn't meet a huge wage demand? Or is everyone suddenly shaming a player because they've read news reports stating as much, and believe them, yet claim everything else the papers report are rubbish.

From what he said, Herrera's issue didn't seem to be financial. The previous year, Herrera stated that he was hoping to stay at the club as he loves the club. The next year, he talks about United and him not being on the same page. That could mean anything. From playing time to wages to just generally the state of the club. It's not safe to assume.
We also signed Fred, who literally strikes me as a player that we signed to do the exact same thing that Herrera was signed to do. The difference being that Fred, playing worse, was persisted with by Solskjaer. Herrera, did excellently when Solskjaer came in, then picked up the injury, and after the contract issue, didn't play again. Fred played himself into improvement. Was Herrera ever played consistently enough to improve, in a consistent role?

He's gone, and it's all done and dusted, but I think that he did have an effective impact in a squad that was utterly dire. At one point, we had Paddy McNair and Tyler Blackett starting ffs. He's a good player, but he's a supportive player. He can't carry the team on his shoulders, and I've found that this is what many fans expect of every single signing these days. If this was the case under Fergie, I imagine the current fan mentality would deem the likes of Park, Fletcher and Brown as "average" players.
Huh? Fred has only played consistently this season and that's because Pogba and Matic got injured.
 

Lennon7

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He was frustrating and didn’t really provide all that much in terms of a creative spark or a game changing moment, but I think he would’ve been a good player to have available since his departure. Certainly a better option than Pereira now or Fred last season.
 

Web of Bissaka

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The way people go on, you'd think Fred was Roy Keane and Herrera was Mark Noble.
:DYeah, it does sounds like that.

Odd.

I respect difference of opinions, that's always interesting, but the arguments to support that though is so bizarre. It's like we're seeing four different players.

Is Fred this season that extremely good? For me, he still play the same way, same playstyle except less costly mistakes (luck, AWB and Mag) compare to last season (I'm impressed with Fred already last season). The few differences are the team is so bad so he standout easily (after McT injured and before Bruno) and the defense is so much better and organized with AWB and Mag so less chances for Fred to defend and make those costly mistakes he tend to do.

And fans seem to talk about Herrera differently. Annoyed with his back-passes, sideways and wayward shots I assume which I can understand, and the fact that his playstyle and skills are not flashy compare to Fred's. But forgot about his many forward passes, key creativity, balances to midfield in any midfield tactical variation, off the ball movement pulling players marking him away for teammates to have more spaces, always there to support team in making those triangles possession play, key defense reliability works, the best at connecting defense to attack constantly per match, the key interceptions in high areas final third he likes to do which help us win games, a goal threat inside the box but managers like to keep him down the ladder (similar to Pogba if we think about it -- why do managers insist on putting Pogba further down nulling his high goal threats), etc.

Maybe we're just seeing football differently? But I don't feel we have those few rare traits in current squad, or one player that can do all of those. That said, we sell Herrera at the right time I feel. No point keeping him being injury-prone wanting huge wages. We don't miss him because McT stepped up, and when he's out injured, Fred stepped up... and yet even when they play before Bruno, we lost the creativity in the final third which we don't when Herrera is playing with either no Pogba or the games where Pogba played so bad.
 

el3mel

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Fred and Scott improving has nothing to do with Herrera being pretty good player for the majority of time with us. Odd logic. We should just thank God Fred and Scott stepped up and managed to take their chance by their hands and improve to keep our midfield good enough.
 

jackal&hyde

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This season where we happen to have invested a load of money on defensive players that Ander didnt get to play with?

How convenient that we compare that with Ander last season but not Fred Vs Ander from last season where they both played with the same players.
Well, you said our defensive players last season were fine and we should not have invested in new ones no? I guess my main point about them two is more on what they offer in the attacking sense, Ander at his best played with Pogba while Fred with Lingard and Pereira. I just think Fred is the superior player with more to come from him but we'l agree to disagree.