Agreed Fred is nowhere Roy Keane but Herrera wasn't much better than Mark Noble either.
Ander Herrera Revisited
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Agreed Fred is nowhere Roy Keane but Herrera wasn't much better than Mark Noble either.
The stats he provides suggest McTominay is a midfield maestro who averages 100 passes in 90 minutes, which can't even be achieved by top players like Xavi or Kroos. More so, McTominay has a 7x average pass length as compared to Pogba, arguably the best long passer in our team. Yet he still doesn't think those stats are silly. Who needs Herrera when we've got McTominay?
I prefer the current McTom to Herrera. They have similar defensive contributions with McTom having developed in to a player that can add more goals, be a very good physical presence, headers and in general being a more dangerous player, something that is important to an 8.
I like Ander too, i just think he is in a similar category to Smalling, Young at full back, Lingard and a few other: decent player that we could and needed to improve upon in order to progress; McTom and Fred are better players now imo. They key word is "now"; they developed; back one or two years ago there was no question Ander was the better one.
No thats not what I said. I said if we had them plus Ander and Smalling, our most reliable defensive players last season then we'd be doing even better. And I mean as extra options - if they are playing well and in form in the team, but if they arent playing as well as Fred and Lindelof etc at least having them available as backups
They're mostly backwards though
McTominay had only played 6 games I dont think anyone is really drawing conclusions from that. Fred had played 9, still not loads
The stats you provided were literally how many forward passes players played over the entire season. Not per game, not per 90 minutes. So of course a player starting every week is going to beat someone who started 16 league games just by virtue of playing lots more games.Thats a ridiculous stacking of the deck to suggest that Matic of all people passes the ball forwards more. You'd have to almost double Ander's number just to make your stats make any sense between those two and more than double them to make the comparison with Pogba
That would be the Mark Noble that threw Herrera off the pitch when they were making a mockery of us.
I loved Ander and it kills me that young was our captain ahead of someone with that heart.
I agree that if we had Ander we would have been better of given the injuries we had this season.
Do you even know how the percentage works? It shows the proportion of the passes going forward out of the total completed passes. Yes Herrera played fewer minutes, and this had already been reflected in the smaller number of total passes.
Meanwhile, the stats I provided did not suggest Matic was much better in passing forward. In fact, he only got 48.1% of his passes going forward, who was the lowest among the 5 players.
Thing is, there is no way McTominay could have averaged 100 passes if those stats only include starts. Here's his first 6 starts in 18/19:They're mostly backwards though
McTominay had only played 6 games I dont think anyone is really drawing conclusions from that. Fred had played 9, still not loads
v West Ham 50 passes in 90 mins
v Newcastle 31 passes in 45 mins
v Southampton 64 passes in 90 mins
v Liverpool 31 passes in 90 mins
v Palace 55 passes in 90 mins
v Southampton 47 passes in 90 mins
I'm no statistic expert but the above numbers clearly don't add up to 100 passes per 90 minutes. The only way to have such a silly and ridiculous tally is to include sub appearances where he makes plenty of passes in a few minutes.
I have no intention in bringing McTominay into this topic, I just want to use this as an example to show that there is a huge sampling bias in your stats. This also applies to Herrera, to a lesser extent though as he plays more games, but still those stats are hardly valid for comparison.
No you showed how many forward passes were played as your source with jorginho way on top
That's because of your agenda and you skip the 5th column of my table in #131. The links only serve as a reference to my numbers and they are never my main point.
In the cold light of the recently finished season then, with Matic-Bruno-Pogba having been well bedded in as by far the first choice, what are thoughts on Herrera now?
What does our current midfield have to do with him as a player ? Our current midfield is great, but Herrera was also a great player for us imo and we got everything we asked for from him in his period here.
He played 547 minutes for PSG, but he won the league. Hard to know what he would have done for us this season because he was always available for us far more than that and with Pogba out he'd have got a lot more gametime. Next season should be more revealing
Wish he was still here.
Herrera could of played at #6 behind Pogba and Bruno easily.
Herrera could of played at #6 behind Pogba and Bruno easily.
He'd have been the perfect squad depth player.
Got the club, capable passer, could tackle, passionate and always up for defending his teammates.
People saying it's worked out with Fred are a bit confused. Fred was bought for £50m and we've had half a good season out of him with his associated wages in two years. The current manager also doesn't seem to fancy him but wanted Herrera to stay.
If we'd done our work with Ander, he'd have stayed on normal wages, lower than Mata's who's barely played, and we could have spent that money on Maguire a year earlier.
Got the club, capable passer, could tackle, passionate and always up for defending his teammates.
People saying it's worked out with Fred are a bit confused. Fred was bought for £50m and we've had half a good season out of him with his associated wages in two years. The current manager also doesn't seem to fancy him but wanted Herrera to stay.
If we'd done our work with Ander, he'd have stayed on normal wages, lower than Mata's who's barely played, and we could have spent that money on Maguire a year earlier.
Totally forgot he existed.
Agreed.
I miss the Ander from LVG's first season. He had 8 goals and 5 assists from 31 games, despite playing mainly as an #8. It sounds crazy now since midfield is arguably our strongest area with more pressing problems elsewhere, but getting a top quality central midfielder was a game changer back then. As the years went by he became a quality #6, but never captured the same heights for me.
I was so desperate for CMs back then, that I was even stoked about getting Schneiderlin. Remember him playing a friendly and scoring the only goal, and looking the best player on the pitch apart from Darmian. Funny how things work out.
I was so desperate for CMs back then, that I was even stoked about getting Schneiderlin. Remember him playing a friendly and scoring the only goal, and looking the best player on the pitch apart from Darmian. Funny how things work out.
I’m still pretty gutted he left, was a class player with a great attitude who really would have fit in well with the current squad dynamic. Just another thing that Mourinho got wrong, awful manager.
I still miss him. Would be a great rotation option and can play anywhere in the midfield to a decent level. He suits our faster-paced attacking compared to our slow boring buildup play we had with LVG and Mourinho. He linked up well with our attackers especially Mata who's slow AF. With our current front 3 making runs I think he'd pick out some great passes. Not as fancy/flashy as Pogba, but I think he's just as effective with the killer pass in the final 3rd to create scoring chances. Presses better than any of our midfielders too.
Pogba is the 6. Herrera's competition is with Fred for the bench spot
Had the worst habit of passing the ball back to the guy who passed it to him straight away. Sometimes numerous times in a row. Can't really describe it well but I've never seen someone do it like he did.
When he snapped out of it he was actually a good passer.
Fine player who did well here, can't particularly say I miss him.
When he snapped out of it he was actually a good passer.
Fine player who did well here, can't particularly say I miss him.
Really like Ander but I thought I'd miss him more than I did.
He'd be a squad player at best today, competing with Fred and Mctominay as the next in line to replace Matic.
We're not missing him one bit.
We're not missing him one bit.
Probably missed Fellaini more tbh and I was a big Herrera fan.
We would have benefited from his energy and quality during the recent period where our form dipped and we were running on steam.
I do believe an in-form Fred is the better player.
I liked Ander, he 'got' what our club was all about, wish him all the best.
I do believe an in-form Fred is the better player.
I liked Ander, he 'got' what our club was all about, wish him all the best.
I think so too. He would have provided great value this season. Instead it was Matic until he broke down (and even after). But I'd rather have a specialist DM than Ander at this stage.
Great squad player, but never at the highest level. Always loved his passion and ability for the big games. Fred and Mctominay replaces that though to a degree.
What sort of work would that have been?
There were multiple reports that he turned down £200k per week and wanted £300k plus. No idea of the veracity of all those report but i think it's safe to assume he wasn't staying for around £100k per week.
He was VanGalised, Louis didn't really give him a run in the team until he stopped playing risky passes and shooting. He snapped out of it a bit under Mourinho but it was always part of his game after that. Him Valencia and Lingard down the right was a sight.
This is exactly why I never warmed up to him completely, it was a big pet peeve of mine during his time with the club. I think I had him as my lowest-rated player in the season where he was voted POTY. Still, he had games and periods where he seemed one of the best midfielders in the league but he lacked consistency and usually reverted to his old habits quickly.
Much like Ighalo, Herrera gets props for simply knowing how to sensibly and professionally play his position. But I don’t miss him one bit.
No he couldn’t, not consistantly anyways. He had one good game there vs Hazard which has warped peoples perception of him. He would’ve never been a consistant performer in that position and the emergeance of Fred and McT has renedered him utterly forgettable no matter how likable he was.
He was a 6 for pretty much the entire 2016/2017 when he won United's POTY.
And De Gea was the best keeper in the world the year after.
It was a shame that he left us, I’d have had more respect for him if he’d gone because he wanted to play more and win more, but he just went for the big pay packet at PSG and is just a squad member, rarely getting a game.....bet he is doing a fair bit of soul searching these days - thinking WTF did I leave for......
Certainly would take him over Pereira.