[sebsheep]

You’re confused because your attempt at a strawman argument exposes you, not me. I never wrote that Zonana’s performance v Spurs proved or disproved anything.

By everyone’s account, even those of his diehard supporters, Onana has not performed anywhere near what was expected. Starting with preseason he looked a shambles but it was early days. He has struggled all season, particularly in the CL, and he was struggling before the Spurs match, when his performance was on par with his performances most of the season so far.

I actually defended Onana here from the accusation that the Richarlison goal was all Onana’s. My accusation here is that Onana should have done better on the Betancur goal. Beyond that, I have been in arguing that if given another season to settle into the demands of playing for United and if given better coaching that Onana could become a decent keeper.

As for the transformation argument, you really don’t want to open that can of worms. Suffice it to say that the notion that Onana could have ever transformed our attack was mind bogglingly moronic in the first place.

Quite the opposite of what you claim I claimed.

Just wondering what you mean by this

Onana will pull himself together as a average keeper we can rely on to perform the basic tasks of stopping weak shots, but until then we’ll just have muddle along dropping stupid points as we did v Spurs

Are you suggesting that your (very much incorrect) belief that we dropped points vs Spurs because of Onana means you think we should keep him? Your post is talking about replacing him and you brought up the Spurs game as evidence of him being a problem. It's not some wild strawman.

The transform bit was a joke aimed at your long running weird criticism of him.

 

[Raoul]

How can your defence have any confidence in this guy? They’re probably a bag of nerves thinking just about any shot can go in.

As one might predict, it doesn't have much confidence as evidence by the fact that we are minus 5 underwater on goal diff.

 

[AndySmith1990]

As one might predict, it doesn't have much confidence as evidence by the fact that we are minus 5 underwater on goal diff.

The appalling attacking players are just as much to blame for the negative GD

 

[Raoul]

The appalling attacking players are just as much to blame for the negative GD

True

 

[Oranges038]

The appalling attacking players are just as much to blame for the negative GD

In terms of goals difference.

22/23 after 21 games - GF - 36 / GA - 28 - +8
23/24 after 21 games - GF - 24 / GA - 29 - -5

A 13 goals swing and the majority of the difference is coming from the goals for column.

G/A after 21 games
23/24 - 29
22/23 - 28
21/22 - 30
20/21 - 27
19/20 - 25
18/19 - 32

People can blame Onana for how ever many goals conceded and say they are his fault or he should have done better, but the reality of the situation is that overall the defence isn't really much worse this season than it was last season or any of the previous 3 or 4.

 

[PSV]

Goals conceded after 21 games:
32 goals - 2018/19
31 goals - 2001/02
30 goals - 2021/22
29 goals - 2023/24
28 goals - 2012/13
---
14 goals - 2003/04
13 goals - 2004/05
13 goals - 2006/07
11 goals - 2007/08
10 goals - 2008/09

Goals scored after 21 games:
54 goals - 2012/13
52 goals - 2011/12
52 goals - 1999/00
51 goals - 2001/02
49 goals - 1997/98
---
32 goals - 2019/20
32 goals - 2016/17
27 goals - 2015/16
25 goals - 1992/93
24 goals - 2023/24

We're having a mare at both ends. It's crazy how big a gap there is.

SAF never really found a season where both ends were equally brilliant, but ten Hag has managed to find a season where both ends are equally awful.

But as you can see we've only conceded one goal more than the season we won the title (12/13) and we've only scored one less goal than another season where we won the title (92/93) so anything is possible!

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I still stand by the fact that he looks like a the fat kid that gets stuck in goal because he can’t play outfield.

I’ve never seen a goalkeeper make a goal look so big his positioning is always wrong and his slow fat kid dives to shots happen far too regular.

 

[Kostov]

He hasnt been consistantly shit though, this anti-Onana agenda thats mainly being pushed by DDG fans is ridiculous

He has consistently been the worst performer in the back line and that is by a mile.

 

[lex talionis]

Just wondering what you mean by this



Are you suggesting that your (very much incorrect) belief that we dropped points vs Spurs because of Onana means you think we should keep him? Your post is talking about replacing him and you brought up the Spurs game as evidence of him being a problem. It's not some wild strawman.

The transform bit was a joke aimed at your long running weird criticism of him.

Quite a lot of incoherent rambling, mate.

My view is quite clear. With another season or two of training Onana actually can develop into a decent keeper. Never elite, but decent enough to perform the basic tasks of stopping shots one would expect of a midtable keeper and excellent distribution -- which you've conveniently ignored me repeatedly acknowledging.

Think about the idiocy of what you've just written:

Are you suggesting that your (very much incorrect) belief that we dropped points vs Spurs because of Onana means you think we should keep him?

I've never suggested that BECAUSE Onana remained rooted to his line as Evans was being beaten that we should therefore keep him. In no universe does that even begin to make any sense. We have to keep Onana because we are fukked in our squad development and we can neither offload Onana, an international joke, to another club nor can we afford to bring in a proper keeper. We're stuck with him, but as I have stated repeatedly, if Onana is open to being instructed on basic techniques he could, in a season or two, develop into decent keeper.

 

[sebsheep]

Quite a lot of incoherent rambling, mate.

My view is quite clear. With another season or two of training Onana actually can develop into a decent keeper. Never elite, but decent enough to perform the basic tasks of stopping shots one would expect of a midtable keeper and excellent distribution -- which you've conveniently ignored me repeatedly acknowledging.

Think about the idiocy of what you've just written:

Are you suggesting that your (very much incorrect) belief that we dropped points vs Spurs because of Onana means you think we should keep him?

I've never suggested that BECAUSE Onana remained rooted to his line as Evans was being beaten that we should therefore keep him. In no universe does that even begin to make any sense. We have to keep Onana because we are fukked in our squad development and we can neither offload Onana, an international joke, to another club nor can we afford to bring in a proper keeper. We're stuck with him, but as I have stated repeatedly, if Onana is open to being instructed on basic techniques he could, in a season or two, develop into decent keeper.

So why are you then saying I'm wrong in my initial post?
- You want the guy replaced
- You used Spurs as an example of games we dropped points in because of Onana.
- I stated that I found it bizarre that you could watch that and believe it was proof he should be replaced.

 

[Trophy Room]

Get Maignan.

 

[Suspicious Swelling]

In terms of goals difference.

22/23 after 21 games - GF - 36 / GA - 28 - +8
23/24 after 21 games - GF - 24 / GA - 29 - -5

A 13 goals swing and the majority of the difference is coming from the goals for column.

G/A after 21 games
23/24 - 29
22/23 - 28
21/22 - 30
20/21 - 27
19/20 - 25
18/19 - 32

People can blame Onana for how ever many goals conceded and say they are his fault or he should have done better, but the reality of the situation is that overall the defence isn't really much worse this season than it was last season or any of the previous 3 or 4.

That is actually a mad stat. So in the last 6 seasons we have conceded on average at least one goal every game. I knew we have been crap for a while but that really is terrible, it's amazing we have managed to get top 4 or win any trophies at all in that period

 

[Oranges038]

That is actually a mad stat. So in the last 6 seasons we have conceded on average at least one goal every game. I knew we have been crap for a while but that really is terrible, it's amazing we have managed to get top 4 or win any trophies at all in that period

As I posted before, nearly the only time average goals conceded dropped below 1 in all that time was when Henderson got his run in the team.

 

[Zed is not dead]

I think there’s a simple truth to Onana at the moment.
He may not be at fault for every goal we concede BUT:
- he has very questionable technique
- hasn’t been good enough so far

We should expect much much more from him

 

[MadDogg]

Thing is, most of the goals he concedes are either goals he should be saving ( poor positioning/slow reactions/that weird one where he sat down before he tried to dive) or are goals he has directly made a mistake for.

So you think we should have easily the least amount of goals conceded in the league this season? Because that's what we would have if 'most' of the goals should be getting saved. Which obviously isn't the case considering the mess of the team and the injuries we've had in the defence. Even as it is we've got the 6th least goals conceded, albeit significantly behind the top 2 or 3.

There absolutely have been goals that we've conceded that have been outright mistakes from him. Particularly in the CL, but also a few in the league. There have also been goals that we've conceded that you would hope the keeper would save, or at least have a higher percentage of saves in those scenarios. But you, and many others, are going massively overboard with claiming that 'most' are like that. You're holding him to unrealistic expectations that are way ahead of what other keepers are doing. You don't even realise you are doing it, but you are.

90% of the goals he concedes are due to his poor positioning, being rooted to his line, and not being able to dive. you can tell when he's cocked up, because he knows it himself, he just sits on his arse and pulls his socks up, when they don't need pulling up.

90%?

So we should have only conceded 3 goals in the league so far this season?

 

[Matt Varnish]

So you think we should have easily the least amount of goals conceded in the league this season? Because that's what we would have if 'most' of the goals should be getting saved. Which obviously isn't the case considering the mess of the team and the injuries we've had in the defence. Even as it is we've got the 6th least goals conceded, albeit significantly behind the top 2 or 3.

There absolutely have been goals that we've conceded that have been outright mistakes from him. Particularly in the CL, but also a few in the league. There have also been goals that we've conceded that you would hope the keeper would save, or at least have a higher percentage of saves in those scenarios. But you, and many others, are going massively overboard with claiming that 'most' are like that. You're holding him to unrealistic expectations that are way ahead of what other keepers are doing. You don't even realise you are doing it, but you are.


90%?

So we should have only conceded 3 goals in the league so far this season?

Ah sarcasm going straight over your head.
Did you read the post I was replying to? No you just dived straight in.

Virtually every % in this thread is made up, so I was only doing the same, but you missed that bit.

 

[MadDogg]

Ah sarcasm going straight over your head.
Did you read the post I was replying to? No you just dived straight in.

Virtually every % in this thread is made up, so I was only doing the same, but you missed that bit.

His 90% is a lot more accurate than yours. Off the top of my head I'd say it's more like 80%, but I question even that since it would mean we've conceded the same amount as City (despite playing a game more). Do you really think it'd be accurate to say that we should have conceded the same as City despite the incredible defensive injury list and the mess our team has been in?

 

[Snow]

That is actually a mad stat. So in the last 6 seasons we have conceded on average at least one goal every game. I knew we have been crap for a while but that really is terrible, it's amazing we have managed to get top 4 or win any trophies at all in that period

Speaks to the mentality of the players. We kept a lot of clean sheets last season, most in the league in fact, but had a few too many games where the players didn't show up. 23 goals conceded in 5 games. 20 goals conceded in the other 33.

 

[RuudTom83]

Will he be back for the FA Cup next weekend?

Haha if true then you couldn’t make it up! poor Bayindir

 

[Tony247]

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[Matt Varnish]

His 90% is a lot more accurate than yours. Off the top of my head I'd say it's more like 80%, but I question even that since it would mean we've conceded the same amount as City (despite playing a game more). Do you really think it'd be accurate to say that we should have conceded the same as City despite the incredible defensive injury list and the mess our team has been in?

I was just taking the piss out of percentages, most are made up on the spot, plus they have alternative percentage, people make them say what they want others to believe.
I go by what I see.
I see him making saves that every keeper would be expected to, that is offset by him being totally static when some effort is required, even Schmiechel says that his diving is poor, for a guy who is built the way he is, he's very timid in goal, he should be commanding his area, forwards should be worried about going against them.
The more worrying thing is, he's exactly the same for Cameroon, two of the goals for Senegal, were stoppable, the one goal was passed into then net, and another was from 18yds, he should be stopping those.

It's like the people on here rubbishing De Gea last season for being leaky.
Yet in Ohno's case they say it's the defences fault.
It's virtually the same defence that was in front of De Gea!

 

[Plant0x84]

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What the hell did I just watch?!

 

[MadDogg]

I was just taking the piss out of percentages, most are made up on the spot, plus they have alternative percentage, people make them say what they want others to believe.

Obviously i knew you were exaggerating with the 90%, but I just wanted to show how ridiculous the exaggeration was. The way people go on as if 'most' of the goals he concede are soft, which simply doesn't make sense unless you actually think we should have conceded one of the lowest, if not the lowest, amount of goals in the league despite how bad things have been. Some have definitely been soft, but people are going significantly overboard and holding him to unrealistic expectations.

It's virtually the same defence that was in front of De Gea!

That's an extremely strange thing to say. Three of our first choice defenders last season (four out of five if you include Casemiro ahead of them) have missed more than they've played this season.

Our defence was fairly clear cut for most of last season, with Dalot (first half of the season) and AWB (second half of the season) being the only position that really changed. Maguire and Lindelof alternated when we wanted to rest Varane, but it was only the last two months of the season when Martinez and Varane were both injured that players and positions started rotating a lot.

This season Shaw has barely played, Martinez has barely played, Varane has played less than Maguire and Lindelof and only slightly more than Evans. Casemiro ahead of them has missed most of the season.

Our most used players each season:

22/23
-----------Eriksen---------Casemiro-------
Shaw - Martinez - Varane - Dalot
----------------------De Gea--------------------

23/24
---------------------Amrabat------------------
Dalot - Lindelof - Maguire - AWB
--------------------Onana---------------------

In other words, not a single player that was first choice last season has been first choice (as in played most of the games) this season bar Dalot, who has largely swapped sides. That's actually an incredible change between seasons.

 

[chocolate cloud]

I hate him

 

[Sylar]

It's virtually the same defence that was in front of De Gea!

Obviously i knew you were exaggerating with the 90%, but I just wanted to show how ridiculous the exaggeration was. The way people go on as if 'most' of the goals he concede are soft, which simply doesn't make sense unless you actually think we should have conceded one of the lowest, if not the lowest, amount of goals in the league despite how bad things have been. Some have definitely been soft, but people are going significantly overboard and holding him to unrealistic expectations.


That's an extremely strange thing to say. Three of our first choice defenders last season (four out of five if you include Casemiro ahead of them) have missed more than they've played this season.

Our defence was fairly clear cut for most of last season, with Dalot (first half of the season) and AWB (second half of the season) being the only position that really changed. Maguire and Lindelof alternated when we wanted to rest Varane, but it was only the last two months of the season when Martinez and Varane were both injured that players and positions started rotating a lot.

This season Shaw has barely played, Martinez has barely played, Varane has played less than Maguire and Lindelof and only slightly more than Evans. Casemiro ahead of them has missed most of the season.

Our most used players each season:

22/23
-----------Eriksen---------Casemiro-------
Shaw - Martinez - Varane - Dalot
----------------------De Gea--------------------

23/24
---------------------Amrabat------------------
Dalot - Lindelof - Maguire - AWB
--------------------Onana---------------------

In other words, not a single player that was first choice last season has been first choice (as in played most of the games) this season bar Dalot, who has largely swapped sides. That's actually an incredible change between seasons.

Yeah agree with @MadDogg here. We were close to knowing our first 11 for the majority of last season. We had a beat three midfield of casemiro/eriksen/Bruno
We had consistency. Maybe second half of the season with Martinez back we can see a solid spine, with him and varane, casemiro and mainoo. If we do whilst it won't make the technique of onanas saves better we might see his strengths more at use.

 

[Ayoba]

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Wtf

 

[miked99]

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This is great

 

[Sunny Jim]

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[Superunknown]

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That's not an accurate video. Onana didn't drop his luggage and spill the contents all over the floor.

 

[Teja]

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The heck

 

[daba]

Guys, we’ve got a problem at keeper which we’re well beyond be able to pretend isn’t a problem. I actually happen to believe that if given another season or maybe two at most that Onana will pull himself together as a average keeper we can rely on to perform the basic tasks of stopping weak shots, but until then we’ll just have muddle along dropping stupid points as we did v Spurs. After the AFCON is over he should retire from international football and focus on his club duties and commit himself to learning the goalkeeping fundamentals. In the meantime, let’s find a young keeper who slot in 2-4 years during which time he can be developed while we phase out Onana, who quite frankly has been a laughingstock for us, symbolic of everything that’s wrong with United right now.

Should have just kept Kovar instead of buying Bayindir. We’d have that young keeper ready and waiting.

 

[LDUred]

The issue is not just technique but his body type. He is over 200 pounds and that is over 20 pounds heavier than De Gea while Onana is clearly shorter. Keepers should not be that heavy. I've seen his height listed as 6 foot 3 but he doesn't look that. There's a pic of him standing next to Rashford and they are about the same height, give or take. I would say Onana is 6,1 most likely.

That is why Onana looks so flat footed - he is too muscular. As a lot of people of noted, he's poor positioninally because he doesn't adjust or get in position. The best keeper's, like De Gea in his heyday, were rarely static but on their heels. Onana has his feet planted because he's carrying too much bulk.

How many goals have we conceded where he fails to move his feet and the ball ends up dribbling into the net. Ben Davies for Spurs and Cole Palmer spring to mind. Okay, the Davies one took a slight deflection but he's absolutely static and the ball squirms in somehow.

What Onana does have in his favour are pretty good reflexes, which is why he's made some decent camera saves, but they don't cover for his losses.

I would imagine this guy does a lot of work in the gym and thinks because he's lifting more, he's better in net, but the amount of weight he's carrying is not helping him one iota.

 

[erikcred]

What Onana does have in his favour are pretty good reflexes, which is why he's made some decent camera saves, but they don't cover for his losses.

What?! His usp was the whole "amazing with his feet while not being a great shot stopper at the top level".

I would imagine this guy does a lot of work in the gym and thinks because he's lifting more, he's better in net, but the amount of weight he's carrying is not helping him one iota.

Hope not. He has access to the best sports scientists in the world.

 

[MoXoM]

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WTF?!?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

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did not see that coming!

 

[Phil Osophy]

The biggest disappointment for me isn't about the saves, but not feeling his presence during games. After years of having DDG stuck to the goal line I wanted us to have a keeper dominating the box, bravely contesting for aerial duels, covering the back of the defensive line and so on. I think Onana is almost as shy as DDG but managing the ball better.

I can't tell if he's been always like this as I didn't watch him before, but if that's the case then I don't see the point of spending around 50 M on a keeper to keep part of the same problems we had before.

I wouldn't mind the club selling him this summer seeing how unconvincing he's been, but part of me is curious to see the man a second season and hopefully in a better context than the current mess, allowing him to be more confident and raising his performance, and see if he can expand his game a bit more.

 

[LDUred]

What?! His usp was the whole "amazing with his feet while not being a great shot stopper at the top level".

Hope not. He has access to the best sports scientists in the world.

Onana has shown decent reflexes to be fair.

We've seen those stops where his reactions have been sharp, but the ball has been parried into the danger area, creating another problem.

The big issue is footwork and that's because he's just not light enough on his feet. If you look at Cole Palmer's goal and Ben Davies effort, Onana's feet go nowhere. He's static.

 

[arthurka]

I really haven't seen him make a great save.

 

[lex talionis]

Should have just kept Kovar instead of buying Bayindir. We’d have that young keeper ready and waiting.

Agreed. We botched this one.

He's lost club supporters and now he's lost supporters of his national team. There's no chance now we can find a club to sell to him even for 10m so the best move for now is to give him time off after his humiliation in the AFCON to let him get his back together and give Bayandir a chance. I actually prefer Heaton, but since I've never seen Bayindir play it would be unreasonable to not even give him one match to play in.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I dont trust Onana and i see him as a downgrade from DDG. Whenver he needs to make a save im nervous and i fully expect him to do something stupid.

De Gea wasn't perfect but he often made saves when he shouldnt have and helped us bigly. Onana has made a few good saves tbf, but too went in where you're just thinking the dreaded and caf-forbidden thought "I bet De Gea would have saved that!"