Antisemitism & Islamophobia

[Peter van der Gea]

I said it was an interesting point. Where is that sentence says that I totally agree and I researched it and its exactly 25 percent and that only Muslims are fundamentalists

You bought her stats into the discussion. If you are not questioning that stat or double checking who she is, you have no right to be posting that.

I dont care and I dont know how to measure it. I just know they are a problem.

As for "knowing" they are a problem, how so?

 

[Stacks]

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/hollywood-divide-over-israel-melissa-barrera-1235804452/amp/

It's ironic that people claim calling Hollywood pro-Israel is anti-semitic yet all the people mentioned as fired in this article were fired for pro-Palestinian views. I don't see any of the vile pro-genocide pro-Israel actors (Schumer, Silverman) being fired or dropped from their roles.

But oh well, I'm still told to believe there isn't a bias in Western media.

Its not just Hollywood

 

[Kaos]

I said it was an interesting point. Where is that sentence says that I totally agree and I researched it and its exactly 25 percent and that only Muslims are fundamentalists

I mean you've stumbled on a thread on Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, carried out a hit and run post of a fraudulent hack like Brigitte Gabriel making a baseless claim about Muslims, with the only semblance of an elaboration from your end being a dog-whistle-esque 'this is interesting'. You've also failed to answer most the questions directed at you here and have resorted to being extremely defensive when being called out for it.

If you're sincere about discussing this could I suggest posting this in one of the various religion threads on this forum and offer more of a discourse than posting videos without any real context as to the point you're making.

 

[UpWithRivers]

You bought her stats into the discussion. If you are not questioning that stat or double checking who she is, you have no right to be posting that.


As for "knowing" they are a problem, how so?

I have every right. Its not an echo chamber. My point was this is interesting lets debate it. I was hoping someone would be intelligent enough to say. Well the person saying this is not a nice person because x, y, z. And on her point I disagree with it because x, y, z.

As for knowing fundamentalists are a problem I have no words. If you can't see Isis, Hamas and others problems then I don't know what to say

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I have every right. Its not an echo chamber. My point was this is interesting lets debate it. I was hoping someone would be intelligent enough to say. Well the person saying this is not a nice person because x, y, z. And on her point I disagree with it because x, y, z.

As for knowing fundamentalists are a problem I have no words. If you can't see Isis, Hamas and others problems then I don't know what to say

Posting inflammatory, unsubstantiated crap is not starting a debate.

Double check your sources, ensure you are not going to get ripped because of stupid stats like 25% of Muslims are fundamentalists.

Did you seriously not hear that stat and instantly question the validity?

As for fundamentalists, may I introduce you to the Proud Boys, the Hindutva movement and any of the genocides in Africa?

Plus the nazis, national front, communists and and any other secular movement of their type?

 

[UpWithRivers]

I mean you've stumbled on a thread on Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, carried out a hit and run post of a fraudulent hack like Brigitte Gabriel making a baseless claim about Muslims, with the only semblance of an elaboration from your end being a dog-whistle-esque 'this is interesting'. You've also failed to answer most the questions directed at you here and have resorted to being extremely defensive when being called out for it.

If you're sincere about discussing this could I suggest posting this in one of the various religion threads on this forum and offer more of a discourse than posting videos without any real context as to the point you're making.

What are you on about. There are 3 points here.

1) The person Brigette Gabriel is a nutter. This I have agreed and apologized for. Done?
2) 25 percent - I have already said I dont care about this figure. Its meaningless in the wide debate. I apologize for this too. But since everyone has their knickers in a twist and cares about it so much why dont you try and disprove it? From my side Ill agree its wrong. Ill do whatever you want. I dont care. Done.
3) The actual debate/problem that we should be discussing - Fundamentalism in the Muslim communities and why more is not being done. This is the key point here but no one wants to address it. Just going on about points one and two over and over again

 

[Kaos]

What are you on about. There are 3 points here.

1) The person Brigette Gabriel is a nutter. This I have agreed and apologized for. Done?
2) 25 percent - I have already said I dont care about this figure. Its meaningless in the wide debate. I apologize for this too. But since everyone has their knickers in a twist and cares about it so much why dont you try and disprove it? From my side Ill agree its wrong. Ill do whatever you want. I dont care. Done.
3) The actual debate/problem that we should be discussing - Fundamentalism in the Muslim communities and why more is not being done. This is the key point here but no one wants to address it. Just going on about points one and two over and over again

I've already quizzed you on point 3. What do you feel the average Muslim should do to tackle fundamentalism? The fact you've raised this topic suggests you must have ideas of your own?

 

[UpWithRivers]

Posting inflammatory, unsubstantiated crap is not starting a debate.

Double check your sources, ensure you are not going to get ripped because of stupid stats like 25% of Muslims are fundamentalists.

Did you seriously not hear that stat and instantly question the validity?

How would I do that? No one here has proved its an incorrect stat?

 

[UpWithRivers]

I've already quizzed you on point 3. What do you feel the average Muslim should do to tackle fundamentalism? The fact you've raised this topic suggests you must have ideas of your own?

And I've already responded. The same as what should be done about racism, fascism, homophobia or any other extremist views. And I wasn't talking only about the the average Muslim. I was talking about the Muslim based countries. Celebrities etc. There should be a massive push to be pro gay. Pro women's rights. They should have pressured Hamas. Protest in the streets. Do I have to spell everything out.
If someone said there is a problem with Racists in the UK and more should be done about it then no one would bat an eyelid. Say more should be done against Muslim fundamentalists and its all gone bat sht

 

[Peter van der Gea]

How would I do that? No one here has proved its an incorrect stat?

What? It's not up to us to prove a negative, the burden of proof is on you, it's your stat

 

[UpWithRivers]

What? It's not up to us to prove a negative, the burden of proof is on you, it's your stat

Its not my stat

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Its not my stat

You bought it into the discussion

 

[Kaos]

And I've already responded. The same as what should be done about racism, fascism, homophobia or any other extremist views. And I wasn't talking only about the the average Muslim. I was talking about the Muslim based countries. Celebrities etc. There should be a massive push to be pro gay. Pro women's rights. They should have pressured Hamas. Protest in the streets. Do I have to spell everything out.

First of all, I'd suggest dropping the attitude. You're not doing yourself any favours with the condescending and defensive tone you've adopted from the onset.

To answer your actual point, perhaps your crosshairs should be aimed at the UK, US and others' foreign policy. Saudi Arabia which adopts the most fundamentalist take on the faith happens to be a close ally to the UK and US. They weren't willing to reign them in on their brutal campaign in Yemen (and indeed provided them weaponry), nor when they brutally murdered US based journalists, so I doubt they'd have the appetite to tell them how to run their society.

 

[owlo]

I'd love to know some real and regionally appropriate stats about Islam.

Are Muslims becoming more or less religious?
Are Muslims becoming more or less extremist?
Is there causation between the two?
How concerned are most Muslims about Islamic extremism?
Are the Islamic cultural regional differences so large that they are almost disconnected?


For example what's striking about the Muslims on here/in the UK, is how tolerant they seem of other religions and aghast at the idea that everybody should be Muslim and follow their individual beliefs. I'd wager a fiver that the vast majority are against honour killings, and feel an individual should have a right whether to leave Islam or not, and generally find themselves compatible with liberal values. Whereas in SE Asia (for example) support for these things is nearly 100%.

 

[Raoul]

What are you on about. There are 3 points here.

1) The person Brigette Gabriel is a nutter. This I have agreed and apologized for. Done?
2) 25 percent - I have already said I dont care about this figure. Its meaningless in the wide debate. I apologize for this too. But since everyone has their knickers in a twist and cares about it so much why dont you try and disprove it? From my side Ill agree its wrong. Ill do whatever you want. I dont care. Done.
3) The actual debate/problem that we should be discussing - Fundamentalism in the Muslim communities and why more is not being done. This is the key point here but no one wants to address it. Just going on about points one and two over and over again

The trouble with Gabriel is she is a bit of a provocateur who has made a career off winding up Fox News viewers about islam. Her critique is a perverse version of a more mainstream narrative that has been discussed more moderately over the past two decades by the likes of Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris as part of the new atheists movement, as well as by Ayan Hirsi Ali and several others - much of which can be found in the religion thread.

 

[UpWithRivers]

First of all, I'd suggest dropping the attitude. You're not doing yourself any favours with the condescending and defensive tone you've adopted from the onset.

To answer your actual point, perhaps your crosshairs should be aimed at the UK, US and others' foreign policy. Saudi Arabia which adopts the most fundamentalist take on the faith happens to be a close ally to the UK and US. They weren't willing to reign them in on their brutal campaign in Yemen (and indeed provided them weaponry), nor when they brutally murdered US based journalists, so I doubt they'd have the appetite to tell them how to run their society.

Attitude? Hows that attitude? I never accused anyone of being stupid. Or hating Muslims. Or anything of the sort. Like has been directed at me. I am just debating a point. Show me the attitude?
I totally agree with the point about the US, UK foreign policy. I protested the Iraq War. But that's whataboutism. I was talking about issues in the Muslim communities.

 

[UpWithRivers]

You bought it into the discussion

So. Doesn't mean I own it.

 

[Kaos]

Attitude? Hows that attitude? I never accused anyone of being stupid. Or hating Muslims. Or anything of the sort. Like has been directed at me. I am just debating a point. Show me the attitude?
I totally agree with the point about the US, UK foreign policy. I protested the Iraq War. But that's whataboutism. I'm was talking about issues in the Muslim communities.

You just said the issue was in 'Muslim-based' countries of which I gave you an example of, its not whataboutism. Now you're talking about 'Muslim communities'. Which is it?

 

[fergieisold]

I assume all other terms such as transphobic, homophobic etc. are ridiculous too, yeah?

It depends on the context. I've seen transphobic used to describe someone who disagrees that trans women should be able to compete in male sports for example.

If a Muslim were a victim of a hatecrime on the basis of their faith or perceived 'Muslimness', what would you call that?

A racially aggravated public order offence. The term islamophobia is used often in response to peoples aversion to specific aspects of Islam that are quite unsavoury and usually rational. For this reason it's used in the wrong context in my opinion.

 

[The United]

I'd love to know some real and regionally appropriate stats about Islam.

Are Muslims becoming more or less religious?
Are Muslims becoming more or less extremist?
Is there causation between the two?
How concerned are most Muslims about Islamic extremism?
Are the Islamic cultural regional differences so large that they are almost disconnected?


For example what's striking about the Muslims on here/in the UK, is how tolerant they seem of other religions and aghast at the idea that everybody should be Muslim and follow their individual beliefs. I'd wager a fiver that the vast majority are against honour killings, and feel an individual should have a right whether to leave Islam or not, and generally find themselves compatible with liberal values. Whereas in SE Asia (for example) support for these things is nearly 100%.

Support for what?

 

[SilentWitness]

I said it was an interesting point. Where is that sentence says that I totally agree and I researched it and its exactly 25 percent and that only Muslims are fundamentalists

I find it interesting that you expect others to find the info for you about all the theories presented and don't look yourself and then are prepared to say that people should hear points and then debate against it. This is why people don't believe you are acting in good faith.

It depends on the context. I've seen transphobic used to describe someone who disagrees that trans women should be able to compete in male sports for example.



A racially aggravated public order offence. The term islamophobia is used often in response to peoples aversion to specific aspects of Islam that are quite unsavoury and usually rational. For this reason it's used in the wrong context in my opinion.

So the term isn't ridiculous then. You just think how it is applied is sometimes ridiculous. They're all valid terms and all very real.

 

[hobbers]

@UpWithRivers do you think that Islam has more fundamentalists than other religions?

It probably does, given that fundamentalist aspects have a bigger range of behaviours and beliefs.

Which goes back to the unique problems Islam has always had with modernisation, not having central governance, and also being the final word of god.

 

[UpWithRivers]

You just said the issue was in 'Muslim-based' countries of which I gave you an example of, its not whataboutism. Now you're talking about 'Muslim communities'. Which is it?

Muslim based countries. Muslim communities. Whatever you want to call it.

I find it interesting that you expect others to find the info for you about all the theories presented and don't look yourself and then are prepared to say that people should hear points and then debate against it. This is why people don't believe you are acting in good faith.

So the term isn't ridiculous then. You just think how it is applied is sometimes ridiculous. They're all valid terms and all very real.

I don't expect people to do jack sht. I already said the 25 percent is not an issue for me in the context of the wider debate. I only suggested if you are tripping balls over it then disproving it might get you some sleep. But no one will

 

[Kaos]

Muslim based countries. Muslim communities. Whatever you want to call it.

And I mentioned one and what the underlying issue is. You dismissed it as whataboutism.

I'm still keen to hear your ideas though.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Sam Harris made an excellent point about the combustibility of Islamic world in discussion with Yuval Noah Harari. It is in the last 5 min. of overall great debate.

 

[Frosty]

This thread took a turn.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

It probably does, given that fundamentalist aspects have a bigger range of behaviours and beliefs.

Which goes back to the unique problems Islam has always had with modernisation, not having central governance, and also being the final word of god.

Dunno mate. Look at the damage that the Christian Churches have done over the centuries.

Then look at the churches now, evangelicals, Jehovahs, there are loads of fundamentalists in every religion.

It's just most aren't in the middle of the carnage of the Middle East

 

[hasanejaz88]

It's sarcasm based on the posts above.

He was trying to mock @UpWithRivers. It is a sarcastic post.

What if I wasn't being sarcastic and seriously thought this? Would it bring about an active debate like we have here with the guy who believed 25% of Muslims are fundamentalists and a 'problem' or would there be zero tolerance and result in a permaban?

This illustrates the difference in mentality people have towards Muslims/Islam, and the type of rhetoric people deem acceptable, compared to antisemitism, which had to deal with the same (but with ofcourse horrible consequences in the past)

 

[Frosty]

What if I wasn't being sarcastic and seriously thought this? Would it bring about an active debate like we have here with the guy who believed 25% of Muslims are fundamentalists and a 'problem' or would there be zero tolerance and result in a permaban?

This illustrates the difference in mentality people have towards Muslims/Islam, and the type of rhetoric people deem acceptable, compared to antisemitism, which had to deal with the same (but with ofcourse horrible consequences in the past)

Well if I have been following, you could ask us to disprove your claim and if we refuse to, that means you are right?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Well if I have been following, you could ask us to disprove your claim and if we refuse to, that means you are right?

You have to have a video with stats

 

[hobbers]

Dunno mate. Look at the damage that the Christian Churches have done over the centuries.

Then look at the churches now, evangelicals, Jehovahs, there are loads of fundamentalists in every religion.

It's just most aren't in the middle of the carnage of the Middle East

I guess there's also many different ways you can define fundamentalism. And not all fundamentalism means being outwardly intolerant/violent.

Whenever anyone says Christian fundamentalism everyone's first thought is bible-thumping rednecks. Would be curious to see social attitudes and how they've evolved in devout Christian countries like Brazil, Mexico, Romania etc.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I guess there's also many different ways you can define fundamentalism. And not all fundamentalism means being outwardly intolerant/violent.

Whenever anyone says Christian fundamentalism everyone's first thought is bible-thumping rednecks. Would be curious to see social attitudes and how they've evolved in devout Christian countries like Brazil, Mexico, Romania etc.

I guess looking at abortion access and debate as probably a good indicator

 

[UpWithRivers]

What if I wasn't being sarcastic and seriously thought this? Would it bring about an active debate like we have here with the guy who believed 25% of Muslims are fundamentalists and a 'problem' or would there be zero tolerance and result in a permaban?

This illustrates the difference in mentality people have towards Muslims/Islam, and the type of rhetoric people deem acceptable, compared to antisemitism, which had to deal with the same (but with ofcourse horrible consequences in the past)

You don't even have the balls to direct your criticism at me and instead spew your hatred in unlinked posts. Prove that I stated anywhere that I believe 25 percent of Muslims are fundamentalists. I dare you. I double dare you.

 

[owlo]

Support for what?

Punishing the leaving of Islam, Islam in the family, Criminal Sharia law [corporal punishment, outlawing homosexuality etc] - For example 98% of Muslims in Malaysia say that leaving Islam is unacceptable, compared to 51% of Buddhists and 61% of Christians.

Islam [both as a culture and religion] obviously isn't monolithic in the slightest and varies greatly by region. More so than other religion/cultures would be my guess, but it's only a guess.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

@UpWithRivers are you saying you posted a stat you don't believe in?

 

[UpWithRivers]

@UpWithRivers are you saying you posted a stat you don't believe in?

I'm saying I posted a stat that I felt worth debating. But in fact the stat was not the point that was worth getting twisted about. But the wider issue of fundamentalists. No fkr knows what the real percentage is. I wish someone would just post some facts so we will all know.

 

[The United]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/china-mosques-shuttered-razed-altered-muslim-areas

China continues with their racism and genocide towards muslims. What a terrible terrible country.

Some here claimed that China is doing "charm offense" toward Muslims and the rest of the globe. They'll just be another superpower that says "good" in pubic but does sh*t behind the scenes. They are currently stirring up trouble at the border with my (home) country while publicly declaring their desire for peaceful resolutions. Funny guys.

 

[WeePat]

A racially aggravated public order offence. The term islamophobia is used often in response to peoples aversion to specific aspects of Islam that are quite unsavoury and usually rational. For this reason it's used in the wrong context in my opinion.

So you don't think there is a word people are allowed to use that accurately describes hatred and discrimination of Muslims specifically?

Islamophobia is sometimes used to shut down legitimate conversation, same as antisemitism, racism etc and we should it all call it out in the specific instances we see it but to argue that Islamophobia doesn't mean what it means is absurd.

 

[WeePat]

Well thats the difference between me and others on here. I reject bigots and facists but Im prepared to hear their points and debate against it. Thats the only way I believe you can come to an understanding. Otherwise we are just in an echo chamber refusing to listen to anything else
See the Sam Harris Video above. Just proves my point. The actual debate was worthwhile.

The problem with trying engage in good faith debates with bigots is they won't ever return the favour, so it's a fruitless battle from the start. So your way sounds fair enough in theory but less useful in practice, and I say that from experience.

I don't know where Sam Harris got his numbers from. He didn't elaborate or provide any sources. And he's not exactly a neutral voice when it comes to Islam. On the surface those numbers seem way off but who knows.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I'm saying I posted a stat that I felt worth debating. But in fact the stat was not the point that was worth getting twisted about. But the wider issue of fundamentalists. No fkr knows what the real percentage is. I wish someone would just post some facts so we will all know.

If it's a false stat, why debate it, and if you think it's true, why would you believe such a high number of any major group is fundamentalist?

You're the one saying Islam is a problem because of fundamentalists, I'm saying that's wrong.

I think fundamentalist of anything is unhealthy, but you seem only to be focusing on the Muslims