Antony dos Santos (Out)

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I think how absolutely shit he's been this season is overshadowing that he wasnt anywhere near as bad last season. We looked a far better side with him for a long spell last season and casemiro aside he was man of the match in cup final around the same time he got that great goal vs barca. He has undoubtedly fallen off a cliff though and its a very long way back. I feel he needed to build on last season and we might have had something, but he does look just terrible now unfortunately.
 
El Zoido said:
All great stuff, but I’ll never ever be convinced we should have put him on £200k a week. Hindsight or not. I thought it was the wrong decision at the time, and definitely think it’s the wrong decision now. Am actually amazed at the amount of people defending this. For me it was absolutely endemic of our post-Fergie transfer business.
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Fair enough, I disagree. 200k isn’t an astronomical wage for a United forward. It would have put him at the bottom of our senior forwards, behind Martial, Rashford and Sancho. The only problem here is that he’s not very good. If he were, there’s no way United paying a Brazilian international forward whom they just spent 86m on 200k week is excessive. In fact, it’s a deal we’d probably be renegotiating to increase within two years. IF he was any good, which we likely thought he would be.

At the figures everyone says we should have paid for him and too him, we’d have never bought him in the first place if that was how we valued him. We simply don’t buy 30m forwards on 60k p/w for our first team, because they aren’t good enough.
 
It's Saudi or a cheap loan to Germany, Netherlands or France probably (ala VDB and Sancho). No big club will want him until he's at least proven he can actually play football again, and even then I think his level (akin with the other two) is probably a regular Europa League outfit who aren't paying big money. We can point the fingers at Woodward, Glazers et al but this is on ETH 100% and should form part of the reason we look for a new manager in the summer.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
I’m not sure why you’re so confrontational all the time lad, relax. Some guy passive aggressively using emojis on an internet forum over my excitement about a new signing, congrats.

Anyway back to Antony. . .
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. . .
Plant0x84 said:
I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage with you - serious, joking or otherwise - when all you want constantly is an argument. You’re going on ignore, it will make my Caf experience much less aggro.
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Thank god.
 
SER19 said:
I think how absolutely shit he's been this season is overshadowing that he wasnt anywhere near as bad last season. We looked a far better side with him for a long spell last season and casemiro aside he was man of the match in cup final around the same time he got that great goal vs barca. He has undoubtedly fallen off a cliff though and its a very long way back. I feel he needed to build on last season and we might have had something, but he does look just terrible now unfortunately.
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sometimes new signings do that. Have a solid/OK first season, leading people to think that they'll only improve the following year, then performances tank and they flop.

Alternatively, there are players who look out of their depth at the start but 2-3 years in they eventually hit their stride.

Antony looks to fall into the former. He's never really stood out, has been a very average performer and has never given anyone a glimmer that he has that special something.

Sad, as we blew way too much on chasing him, we should have looked elsewhere rather than insisting we'll buy him.
 
SER19 said:
I think how absolutely shit he's been this season is overshadowing that he wasnt anywhere near as bad last season. We looked a far better side with him for a long spell last season and casemiro aside he was man of the match in cup final around the same time he got that great goal vs barca. He has undoubtedly fallen off a cliff though and its a very long way back. I feel he needed to build on last season and we might have had something, but he does look just terrible now unfortunately.
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Yep.

People call him unlikeable, but I really wanted him to succeed after reading the essay he wrote about his upbringing.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/p...d-cup-soccer-premier-league-manchester-united
 
Your first season is a free hit, then teams know your game and can start to figure you out by 2nd season. It seems he was figured out a lot quicker. Some say last season he was okay, he really wasn't, his assist numbers were poor. He came in like a whirlwind but after those initial games, teams realized he wasn't the quickest, he wasn't the strongest and all he wants to do is cut inside and shoot. As a Utd fan you hope he can turn it around, I just don't see it with him, he hasn't got outstanding part of his game that is just waiting to be unleashed. He may pop up with the odd decent performance here and there, but I think he's destined to end up in a league like Portugal.
 
I think people take it too far with Antony. He has been in really really poor form, but he is not a poor footballer. He definitely has it in him to add something useful to the team. We even saw it in bursts last year, and we saw how we struggled to keep a good shape when he wasn’t on the pitch

He is not a transition player, that style suits the likes of Rashford. Antony would actually be effective in a system that focuses on build up play, and one where he has a proper attacking right back behind him. I just hate how we have so many players who quite clearly need to play a specific style of play, but yet we shoehorn them all into one big disjointed mess.

Obviously you don’t change the tactics for one player; but that’s the type of player he was, and still is, but that doesn’t make him a horrible footballer like he keeps being labeled. I’d give him the benefit of the doubt for next season and then reassess our options depending on how he goes.
 
Redivy said:
that doesn’t make him a horrible footballer like he keeps being labeled.
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He is a very limited footballer. He has a preference on how to play and that makes him very predictable and ineffective because it becomes easy to defend against.
With Garnacho bossing the right I would try him on the left, especially when Hojlund and McT are on and ask him to keep getting to the byline and pinging the crosses in.
 
poleglass red said:
Your first season is a free hit, then teams know your game and can start to figure you out by 2nd season. It seems he was figured out a lot quicker. Some say last season he was okay, he really wasn't, his assist numbers were poor. He came in like a whirlwind but after those initial games, teams realized he wasn't the quickest, he wasn't the strongest and all he wants to do is cut inside and shoot. As a Utd fan you hope he can turn it around, I just don't see it with him, he hasn't got outstanding part of his game that is just waiting to be unleashed. He may pop up with the odd decent performance here and there, but I think he's destined to end up in a league like Portugal.
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I agree on all the wage and transfer fee stuff that’s been mentioned in this thread but I disagree regarding his level being that of a Portuguese league level player. Look at when he has his best performances last year, it was when our team was able to play higher up the pitch and in fact his best moments were always when we were building up in the opposition half. I think his weaknesses have become exposed by using going back to counter attack football, which does not suit him all.

Theres no excuse for him losing so much confidence and refusing to take on his man, but I would like to think his time away from the team this year had a part to play.
 
Redivy said:
I agree on all the wage and transfer fee stuff that’s been mentioned in this thread but I disagree regarding his level being that of a Portuguese league level player. Look at when he has his best performances last year, it was when our team was able to play higher up the pitch and in fact his best moments were always when we were building up in the opposition half. I think his weaknesses have become exposed by using going back to counter attack football, which does not suit him all.

Theres no excuse for him losing so much confidence and refusing to take on his man, but I would like to think his time away from the team this year had a part to play.
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The point is that he can't take on his man when he has no right foot. I could defend against him and I'm shit - just show him on his right and watch him pass it backwards. He is limited in what he can do by his own inherent inability, and yes that does make him a poor footballer at this level.
 
Patchbeard said:
It's mind boggling that Antony was our first ever player to score in their first 3 Premier League games.

He has 1 goal in 42 games since!
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It's ridiculous, and that goal was against Newport! Let that sink in, and he celebrated as if he scored the world cup winner. How many assists in his last 42 games. It's astonishing.
 
Gee Male said:
The point is that he can't take on his man when he has no right foot. I could defend against him and I'm shit - just show him on his right and watch him pass it backwards. He is limited in what he can do by his own inherent inability, and yes that does make him a poor footballer at this level.
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According to ETH, he is so fast on the first 10 yards that no fullback will be able to stop him. He is quick on the first steps, but if he is that quick, why hasn't he be able to use it to his advantage? Robben was also terribly one footed and preferred to go inside, but he could still surprise his fullback by going on the outside from time to time.
 
SER19 said:
I think how absolutely shit he's been this season is overshadowing that he wasnt anywhere near as bad last season. We looked a far better side with him for a long spell last season and casemiro aside he was man of the match in cup final around the same time he got that great goal vs barca. He has undoubtedly fallen off a cliff though and its a very long way back. I feel he needed to build on last season and we might have had something, but he does look just terrible now unfortunately.
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I saw last season differently. I thought he did okay at times but his productivity and general play wasn't high and for the price we paid he needed to improve drastically for him not to have been a flop.

I think if he was signed for £20m we'd have said he's a decent squad player last summer but we need another option for that position.

He's obviously been worse but I don't think individually he's miles away from where he was last season, just the team has regressed too.

Some of the positives on the team to me were more to do with his profile (left footed, generally safe in possession, stays in his position and defensively good for a winger) rather than anything meaningful.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
Yep.

People call him unlikeable, but I really wanted him to succeed after reading the essay he wrote about his upbringing.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/p...d-cup-soccer-premier-league-manchester-united
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This is great. I've been watching clips of him and while one-footedness is an issue, it is one that has been overcome by some top players. Robben for example never developed an excellent right foot, but it can be improved. The issue for antony, in my opinion, is that he is fast, but over shorter distances, so strength becomes so much more important. He's never going to dribble like Robben, or Bale, but could be very effective as he's a good passer, with decent footwork- the glaring problem for me is that he is so easily outmuscled by almost every premier league player. When you're relying on short little bursts around people, them stepping in front of you cannot be a reason for you to be nullified, but it really is. Almost every player that leans into him, beats him for strength and he does look like a boy against men in this regard.
 
Patchbeard said:
It's mind boggling that Antony was our first ever player to score in their first 3 Premier League games.

He has 1 goal in 42 games since!
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It took English football 3 games to figure him out.

He has nothing in his locker but cutting in on his left for a shot or passing the ball backwards.
 
It's not just a case of being one footed, its about balance. You can be very left footed and still go inside and outside the fullback.

It's hard to put into words but Antony just hasn't got the balance or flexibility to work to his right side.

He's not just one footed. He's one sided.
 
Rossa said:
According to ETH, he is so fast on the first 10 yards that no fullback will be able to stop him. He is quick on the first steps, but if he is that quick, why hasn't he be able to use it to his advantage? Robben was also terribly one footed and preferred to go inside, but he could still surprise his fullback by going on the outside from time to time.
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Not sure which Antony he’s been watching. He isn’t quick over the first few years at all - medium pace.
 
Zero chance we sell him next year. It won't make sense from an FFP stand point. Selling him, we would have £51.6m due instead of £27.6m if he stayed. We need to get at least £24m from a club willing to take on his wage. Can't see that happening.
 
Redivy said:
I agree on all the wage and transfer fee stuff that’s been mentioned in this thread but I disagree regarding his level being that of a Portuguese league level player. Look at when he has his best performances last year, it was when our team was able to play higher up the pitch and in fact his best moments were always when we were building up in the opposition half. I think his weaknesses have become exposed by using going back to counter attack football, which does not suit him all.

Theres no excuse for him losing so much confidence and refusing to take on his man, but I would like to think his time away from the team this year had a part to play.
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He doesn't do anything in the opposition half though, he either cuts inside and ballons it high and wide or plays it backwards. His assist numbers last season were poor. Even this season with a recognized number 9, he's no intention of getting to the byline and whipping in a cross or playing through balls consistently. His time away has nothing to do with his refusal to take a man on though, he simply doesn't have the pace to beat full backs in the PL on a regular basis, hence his insistence in playing easy balls back. We weren't a possession based team last season, we were basically set up to hit Rashford on the counter, his goals hid the fact we didn't have a centre forward.
 
Lost count of the number of times he's had space in front of him (sometimes after beating his man, other times after receiving the ball there) and still decided to let the FB or whoever catch up with him. Having no right foot is one thing, but he should at least be getting ahead of defenders so they risk fouling him, or just keep momentum and play a progressive ball or lay off. Don't think I've ever seen a player at any level repeatedly slow the game down from that position.

He offers absolutely nothing as an attacking threat.
 
Rozay said:
Fair enough, I disagree. 200k isn’t an astronomical wage for a United forward. It would have put him at the bottom of our senior forwards, behind Martial, Rashford and Sancho. The only problem here is that he’s not very good. If he were, there’s no way United paying a Brazilian international forward whom they just spent 86m on 200k week is excessive. In fact, it’s a deal we’d probably be renegotiating to increase within two years. IF he was any good, which we likely thought he would be.

At the figures everyone says we should have paid for him and too him, we’d have never bought him in the first place if that was how we valued him. We simply don’t buy 30m forwards on 60k p/w for our first team, because they aren’t good enough.
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200k is ridiculous amount of wages. We only gave Hojlund 85k. Even if Antony is good, we shouldn’t overpaying our players with high wages either the same goes with other players including Rashford. Mane was around 100k, while it took Salah 5 full seasons scoring 19+ league goals every season to finally getting more than 200k. On contrary, we gave players high wages easily without letting them earning it properly by proving their worth on consistent basis, this is the big main problem.
 
The transfer fee has killed him really, very few players will ever live up to that price tag and its yet another example of setting your limit and walking away if it's not the right deal.

Should of walked away from Maguire, Antony, Mount to name a few.
 
Plant0x84 said:
He is a very limited footballer. He has a preference on how to play and that makes him very predictable and ineffective because it becomes easy to defend against.
With Garnacho bossing the right I would try him on the left, especially when Hojlund and McT are on and ask him to keep getting to the byline and pinging the crosses in.
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Agreed. It's not rocket science. Try him on the left so he doesn't need to cut in all the time. Plus he can whip in first time crosses on the counter attack.

Seems a no brainer to try for a few games especially as rashford is standing around up front like a primadonna.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Not sure which Antony he’s been watching. He isn’t quick over the first few years at all - medium pace.
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There might be something to it though. He was rated 93-95 for acceleration on Fifa at Ajax. Not that it’s accurate but he was rated as quick. It’s his use of his speed that is the biggest issue.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Not sure which Antony he’s been watching. He isn’t quick over the first few years at all - medium pace.
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This got me as well. He didn't just say he was fast, he said no one is as fast as Antony over 10 yards, and expressed confusion that he hadn't seen that demonstrated at United
 
I've not quite given up on him yet.

Yes it's a baffling signing when you consider his stats in Holland weren't great. But the only way we can avoid it becoming the worst signing in our history is by giving him as much time as possible to turn it around.

It does feel like EtH played Forson ahead of him to get some sort of reaction from him.

In any case I don't think we has a choice as no club will offer us anywhere near the amount we paid.

I suppose he could go out on loan somewhere?
 
He gets far too much criticism. He's not great in end product but he adds value in a lot of other areas of the game. I actually trust him to keep the ball well, he's good in tight areas and he is underrated defensively.

The problem is he's expensive, and thats not really his fault.
 
If he'd cost 18p the output is still not good enough for Manchester United.

I'm sure he's ok or good in a better team, you could say that about a lot of players though. Wasn't that impressed with his World Cup performances and the Ajax games he looked like he was just keeping his head above water physically and often getting caught up, just about rolling players to get by.

In the perfect layoff passing system by a top team he could be really good around the box with disguised passes and time to shoot.
 
VP89 said:
He gets far too much criticism. He's not great in end product but he adds value in a lot of other areas of the game. I actually trust him to keep the ball well, he's good in tight areas and he is underrated defensively.

The problem is he's expensive, and thats not really his fault.
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How many goals and assists has he got so far this season?
 
He’s about as good as Bernard, that other Brazil squad winger, who played for Everton for a bit. And he’s conned United into paying him an absolute fortune.
 
FerociousCorgis said:
id be careful judging players by goals and assists this season. Not gonna be a pretty list overall for many of our players.
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1 goal and 1 assist in 27 if the stats in the Anthony thread are correct

thats a whole other level of bad for an attacking player.

so of course the criticism is deserved. no player should get a pass with stats like that
 
SER19 said:
I think how absolutely shit he's been this season is overshadowing that he wasnt anywhere near as bad last season. We looked a far better side with him for a long spell last season and casemiro aside he was man of the match in cup final around the same time he got that great goal vs barca. He has undoubtedly fallen off a cliff though and its a very long way back. I feel he needed to build on last season and we might have had something, but he does look just terrible now unfortunately.
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Even last season he didn't produce much at all though, which was the issue. He kept the ball far better/held shape in the team well/did good defensive work but he was lacking any sort of threat even when playing "well", which is an issue for a record winger signing. Essentially the anti-Garnacho, who you could watch feck up defensively tracking back and lose the ball 10 times straight but there was also the obvious glimpses of a serious threat to defenders and the opposition team and the ability to create something at any time. The latter is a player you can build on (and he has this season), the former is difficult to imagine any sort of "improvement" unless Antony had suddenly become Arjen Robben in front of goal with his left foot.
 
Reditus said:
How many goals and assists has he got so far this season?
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It's not the only way to evaluate a player, such a silly argument. He adds more value in the United shirt than Rashford on the pitch, and the latter popped up with more goals. This is why isolated stats are so flawed.
 
If his only consistency is in his workrate and defensive capabilities, then it only makes sense that he plays fullback. Surely can’t be any worse than Lindelof or Amrabat there.
 
Florida Man said:
If his only consistency is in his workrate and defensive capabilities, then it only makes sense that he plays fullback. Surely can’t be any worse than Lindelof or Amrabat there.
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Defensive capabilities as a winger. You're not really defending but more pressing and being correctly positioned. He'll not cope with 1v1s on the regular, knowing how to position himself with the rest of the defensive line, defending the box when the cross comes inside from the left, staying vigilant and guarding runs when the ball isn't close to him.

Defending as a winger is easy. You only really need to do the bare minimum.
 
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