Are we too pragmatic in the big games?

Tapori

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I am going to defend Ole.

In the Liverpool game and today's Arsenal match, we had very very very good chances to win.
Pogba and Cavani and Rashford and Martial before in the CL.
We score and take them and win and Ole is a genius.
Fine margins, but his approach is suited to the fact that we cannot move up the pitch through midfield safely, penetratingly and consistently enough and play in spurts.
 

Olecurls99

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Tapori said:
I am going to defend Ole.

In the Liverpool game and today's Arsenal match, we had very very very good chances to win.
Pogba and Cavani and Rashford and Martial before in the CL.
We score and take them and win and Ole is a genius.
Fine margins, but his approach is suited to the fact that we cannot move up the pitch through midfield safely, penetratingly and consistently enough and play in spurts.
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I agree with the idea that we don't have the 11 players necessary, not just the midfielders because everyone barring the goalkeeper needs to be slick on the ball, to beat a really good press and gradually move the ball up the pitch before scoring.
I would suggest that for that style of play we would need a Grealish to relieve lots of pressure with a dribble or a feint here and there.
My question is why do we have to set up in our half? Why not press high ourselves and camp in top opposition's halves? We've got good pressing midfielders and we've got pace at the back. We should look to do it back to other teams.
 

Berbasbullet

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We were quite attacking I thought? The final ball was just lacking.
 

YouOnlyLiveTwice

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We need to go for it a bit more next season if we strive to win the title.

Some of these games we have had good chances, but lacked the final quality pass or shot to win it.
 

Kag

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No. We just don’t have attacking players good enough to merit doing anything particularly different. Bruno and Pogba are great but the rest blow hot and cold or are otherwise middling.

People bang on about McTominay and Fred (who both have some good qualities) but by Christ they can’t pass a ball. What do you expect?
 

DWelbz19

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He must have PTSD from that 6-1, or something. Look a completely different side in big games from his first season.
 

kouroux

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Kag said:
No. We just don’t have attacking players good enough to merit doing anything particularly different. Bruno and Pogba are great but the rest blow hot and cold or are otherwise middling.

People bang on about McTominay and Fred (who both have some good qualities) but by Christ they can’t pass a ball. What do you expect?
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Very true. This plus the fact that Ole isn't the most proactive coach, it's an impossible mix
 

The_Midfielder

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We need a better CF and a RW.. we have players that prefer to hang outside the CF positions ..so we become easy to defend ..
Then we do not have a RW...
 

Shane88

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1-6 vs Spurs.
0-0 vs Chelsea.
0-1 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs City.
2-2 vs Leicester (I so no reason why they shouldn't be counted these days).
0-0 vs Liverpool.
0-0 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs Chelsea.

8 games. 3 goals. 0 wins.
 

bosnian_red

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You look at the positioning of Fred and McTominay and you get your answer. It was the same for Chelsea today though, 3 CBs, and Chilwell on the "wing", second half another fullback added in, and then a midfield of Kovacic and Kante. So hard to play through and always going to be a game of almost no chances.
 

el3mel

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The record is diabolical to the point it's becoming actually funny. We can't even score in these games anyway.
 

Adisa

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Shane88 said:
1-6 vs Spurs.
0-0 vs Chelsea.
0-1 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs City.
2-2 vs Leicester (I so no reason why they shouldn't be counted these days).
0-0 vs Liverpool.
0-0 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs Chelsea.

8 games. 3 goals. 0 wins.
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Abysmal.
 

darko

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There was more to gain for Chelsea to push for the win today and honestly there was no reason for United to be the side taking the risks. Let's be honest, City are not going to drop 10 points.
 

Sylar

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The set up isnt fully the problem. Its the quality of some of the players.
I mean that last counter, McT had three players to hit, and put it behind all three and hits a chelsea player.

I do think the 6-1 earlier in the season may affect our approach and some of the players.

The one good thing is were not terrible at the back. But Fred and McT (esp today) were so wasteful in possession. We are where we are in the table (rightfully imo) based on our squad.
 

Judas

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DWelbz19 said:
He must have PTSD from that 6-1, or something. Look a completely different side in big games from his first season.
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Yep. Feels like it doesn't it. So much fear, we never want to risk anything, always looking for a clean sheet first, and if we can nick a goal great, but sadly we've looked far from likely to do that this season. Not good enough.
 

lysglimt

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In some games we have been too careful - today it was much more important not to lose than to win.
 

El Jefe

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el3mel said:
The record is diabolical to the point it's becoming actually funny. We can't even score in these games anyway.
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It really is pathetic. There's clearly a cowardly element to our approach in these games. It's too easy to say get a better CF or RW. We are somehow the highest scorers in the league without a world class front line so being unable to score in these games is no coincidence.
 

Dan_F

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Not sure it was Ole’s fault today. We pressed very well in the first half, but clearly couldn’t do that for 90 mins. Tuchel also changed the system well at half time.

The passing from defence to midfield is just such a huge issue. It’s hard to see us going anywhere against the top teams.
 

Infra-red

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Ole, like Mourinho, is a counter attacking manager.

If you want to improve your side's quality in possession, these are not the coaches to do it.
 

Champagne Football

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We play a double pivot with 2 defensive style midfielders. Neither one can play through the lines or can score consistently.

Greenwood is having 2nd season syndrome.

Martial has given up.

Cavani missing takes away out our cutting edge in front of goal.

That leaves Bruno and Rashford as our only genuine threat. They both look tired and we rely too heavy on them. We are still one or two attacking players, or attacking Central midfielders away from being able to be more adventurous in a game like today.
 

charlenefan

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Shane88 said:
1-6 vs Spurs.
0-0 vs Chelsea.
0-1 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs City.
2-2 vs Leicester (I so no reason why they shouldn't be counted these days).
0-0 vs Liverpool.
0-0 vs Arsenal.
0-0 vs Chelsea.

8 games. 3 goals. 0 wins.
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Let's be real the 1-6 was a freak game against 10 men so if you ignore that one while the goals scored is invisible it's only 1 penalty conceded as well so ya know every cloud (I'm also ignoring Leicester as they're never included on these lists)
 

RORY65

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I'm not sure its pragmatism. Last season the big sides didn't respect us and so gave us the counter attack at which we excelled. This season they fear the counter more and because of that we're having to be slightly more proactive and we haven't got a clue.
 

tjb

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Don't think we are. I feel people who praise our midfield in these games and yet bash us for being pragmatic don't seem to realise that the reason we are so toothless in these games is because our central midfield is usually outclassed. As they are outclassed, due to fear of leaving open gaps, they drop deeper than they should, not by instruction and furthermore are relative scared of playing incisive build up passes. This forces us to either get those passes from deep in the shape of Maguire or Lindelof making those incisive passes, playing it long or driving themselves or having to combine from the flanks ( which is not effective with Daniel James as he lacks any technical skills, completely hampering our right side). This means that if Rashford isn't playing well in these games, we have no real attacking outlet, not because our attackers played poorly, but because our midfield can't do their job offensively.
 

TMDaines

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Amazing how adding a few goals to a team that is fairly solid defensively makes a massive difference in these games. Pragmatism is the only way to approach these matches in my view. That’s why Ferguson was so successful.
 
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