Problem is that all the talent is up front. Look at their midfielders and defense. Nothing like those great Argentina squads of the 90's or 00's.
Argentina NT
- Thread starter Infordin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
They aren't actually THAT bad, in Europe you could probably compare them to the likes of Slovenia, Albania or Austria which isn't even that bad. Venuzuela are better of the two but Bolivia have enormous advantage playing at home which is probably tougher than playing at a lot of better European teams.
Yeah we always have a similar issue, albeit on a much smaller scale here in SA. Rugby teams going up to Johannesburg suffer abit with their higher altitude as well.Hard to disagree when you mention Gibraltar, Andorra or San Marino
Latvia has a very decente team... if the sport is basketball
In a perfect world, Argentina players would spend a few hours in chambers to adjust themsleves to the oxigen level of Bolivia. Unfortunatelly, international football is a mess in pre-match arrangements. There's barely time to make a couple of training sessions before the matchs, since mos of the players comes from Europe and will spend 8+ hours on a bloody plane to get to any suth american country.
I never really get this arguement, because the games against those teams basically don't count, as all contenders usually beat them (and if they don't the point is even more moot). In CONMEBOL, while the competition is much tougher, there is also an enormous margin of error, as Argentina have less than 1,5 point per game and still just need a win to almost guarantee qualifying.
Look at Italy who have won all their games except against Spain, so one of them was forced into play-offs.
Or Netherlands and Sweden who can at best fight for a play-off spot, being in a group with France.
For the better teams in the zone, I think CONMEBOL qualification is generally safer considering how many missteps you can afford.
Higuian to his defense at least scores against the lesser teams. He sucks in the pressure games though. Aguero never convinces for Argentina.
A generation of serial chokers in a national shirt. Messi included
there isn't much to understand. the question was why do they stuggle so much and the answer is simply because they can't dominate that qualifiers being a "just" a good team. they just don't stand out.
for example, Italy isn't shit or in major crisis, but the Spain is just slightly better and that's all. you would probably hearing the same about Argentina if you were to place them in similar group because it's perfectly normal to be behind Spain. they would toy with Albania and Israel then (at least I think so) and the general mood would be better than now, when every game is struggle and all you get is disappointment after disappointment. winning does wonders for team spirit and my argument is that it's easier to win against european minnows.
they will qualify regardless, though, so yeah, I agree with your last sentence.
Can you include Messi in that?
Doesn't he always create multiple chances for his teammates? Perhaps he could do a little more and score a little more but the others need to do a lot more, no?
I think its the pressure that makes the rest choke.
How was the starting 11 in the last game?
He had five assits last night, 5!! he´s surrounded by monkeys.
Don't look like the deserve to be at the world cup.
Wouldn't be a travesty if they missed out.
Wouldn't be a travesty if they missed out.
Argentine :
------------------------Romero -
Mercado------- Otamendi-- Mascherano--------- Acuna
------------------Biglia----------Banega (Gago, 60e ; Perez, 66e) -
Di Maria (Rigoni, 46e)-------Messi--------Gomez
------------------------Benedetto
Pérou : Gallese - Corzo, Araujo, Rodriguez, Trauco - Pena (Cartagena, 53e), Tapia (Aquino, 79e), Yotun - Farfan (Polo, 70e), Guerrero, Flores. Sél. : Gareca
------------------------Romero -
Mercado------- Otamendi-- Mascherano--------- Acuna
------------------Biglia----------Banega (Gago, 60e ; Perez, 66e) -
Di Maria (Rigoni, 46e)-------Messi--------Gomez
------------------------Benedetto
Pérou : Gallese - Corzo, Araujo, Rodriguez, Trauco - Pena (Cartagena, 53e), Tapia (Aquino, 79e), Yotun - Farfan (Polo, 70e), Guerrero, Flores. Sél. : Gareca
Not so many players evolving in Europe.
Deflected cross, through ball for benedetto *2, through ball for papu, low cross for rigoni(that was an incredible defensive effort by the defender). He also missed the biggest/easiest chance in the game. Overall, it's the same problem as always: he's anonymous for most of the game, pulls off 4-6 individual moments of magic for his teammates, misses the chances that come to him. He's Messi, the entire team is built around him, most managers play the guys he wants in the way he wants. If it doesn't work, maybe it's time to stop catering so much to him and start asking him to adapt to what the managers believe is the best way to get the best out of everyone....especially because both with Batista and Sabella, argentina were better when they went with their team instead of the one Messi wanted...
He's not bad for argentina, by any means, but he's also clearly not quite good enough to be the center of the universe for them. The fact that a team with Di Maria, Pastore, Aguero, Higuain, Mascherano, Banega, Biglia can be as dire as they've been without him in these qualifiers is beyong ridiculous
It has nothing to do with him, no player can carry a team if his teammates are shit. You need a certain of level of performances from those around you (in order for you to play even better). Everything is linked, he isn't playing as well as at Barca because his teammates aren't performing the same. Pele had a fantastic team, Maradona had a fantastic team, Zidane same.
100%
As do they for him. No one should ever dare to claim its only him who creates things for Argentina.
He also has a nasty habit of missing in an Albiceleste shirt the type of chances he'd never miss in a Barca shirt.
They all should. Save for Mascherano and perhaps Di Maria. None of their current stars ever transfer their club form consistently to the national team. All your of them choke. Not even Messi over comes it. Its been that way since before Maradona's crazy spell as national coach.
And he is the monkey king. The chance he missed, he would have scored in a Barca shirt with his eyes closed, whilst smoking a cigar. He is with out excuse.
He does miss some good/great chances at Barca too. The biggest difference is that the stakes were high last night and at Barca he has many other chances to correct himself. You're not reasonable with your comment.
That is the lousiest excuse I've heard in ages. In a Barca shirt we have seen him score tough chances, in a high stakes game, whilst chances are minimal. Case in point the home leg of the semi final vs Pep's Bayern. In which he beats Neuer in a tougher situation, in spectacular clinical fashion, than the chance he missed vs the same keeper in the world cup final months earlier. Literally turning a game with few chances on its head with two clinic interventions. Its not unreasonable for me to expect players like him, Higuain, Aguero and Di Maria to name a few, to transfer their big match temperament that is on constant display at the top echelons of club football, to their national shirt. I also find it rather strange that often people want to paint him as blameless, going as far as building the myth that the likes of Maradona played in an Argentina pool of talent deeper than he is currently surrounded with. Or that its only his teammates and not him, simply failing to measure up to the standard they should be performing at.
This current generation of Argentine footballers have a severe mental block. And if they do scrape through to the world cup, Sampaoli has to find a way to instill the required mental toughness in them to over come it. For in reality their team should be just as deadly and as feared as the likes of Brazil, Spain, Germany or France. Currently they will go down like the England generation of the Beckham's and Gerrard's. A golden generation utterly unable to get it together.
Last edited:
I think the issue isn't they are shit, they are just not teammates.
That's not lousy, that's a fact. There are many times that Messi has missed big chances for Barca too, to deny it would be completely stupid. The problem with you Chief, you take anything said to an extreme (as in implying we think he is blameless). Messi isn't as good as he is for Barca from an individual POV for sure but the way you're talking about him, I mean wtf, it's like you're talking about Emile Heskey playing for England. Where is the little bit of common sense in your criticism ? I can understand the criticism because there are valid causes for it but the way you do it is fecked up IMHO. It's massive collective failure in Argentina, they're all to be blamed. Messi for not playing as well as he can and his teammates for being as shit as they are.
The 2 concepts are a bit related no ? Not being a true teammate during a match cannot impact positively your individual performance.
Exactly. Messi is a WC player, but he can't do all by himself.
Sure. I thought you referred to talent, not performance levels. He is not being asked to carry shit teammates but a non existent team devoid of a plan or tactical identity.
And who denied that he misses chances for Barca? Stop trying to conflate Messi missing chances with Messi repeatedly fluffing big chances for Argentina. Claiming he gets more chances for Barca is a rubbish excuse. The reason he has been and is still considered the best player on Earth by many is because of the amount of clutch chances he does take for Barca. The same type he and others regularly fluff for Argentina.
When you start claiming Messi is poorer for Argentina because of his team mates, its pretty obvious you are absolving him of blame. There is Nada extreme about me pointing the obvious out. That is why other people have gone as far as to claim a Maradona was surrounded by 'superior' talent.
The fact is Messi under performs for Argentina for the self same reason as his teammates. Period. They are chokers and are yet to find a manager to help them over come the mental block. And yes Koroux , Messi -Argentina compared to Messi Barca is as bad as a Heskey vs Messi comparison, compared to his true level. And that goes to for Higuain, Aguerio and a number of others. You can't have been following Argentina since 2008 and honestly believe any member of that team bar Mascherano and perhaps Di Maria have been pulling their weight. Be it as a collective or as individuals. So I don't see why any excuse should be made for any of them.
Last edited:
I wouldn't be surprised if Argentina made it to the Finals, they had a bad campaign for the 94 qualifiers, but squeezed through in the playoff against Australia, if they do the same against New Zealand this time it wouldn't surprise me at all. 2010 they squeezed into 4th place and condemned Uruguay to the playoff when they won in Montevideo in the last game.
Whether they will do anything at the Finals, if they qualify, that is another question.
Whether they will do anything at the Finals, if they qualify, that is another question.
This Argentina is not a team.
That's a tad harsh considering that they went to actual finals.
Apart from that i tend to agree with your mental block theorie. However i can't for the life of me understand why Dybala isn't even playing. Okay he likes to roam in Messi's area, but even if he were occupying different areas on the pitch, he's still is a magnificent footballer. Maybe Argentina severely lacks good fullbacks, but they've got to use most of their European attackers.
Anyway, if they can't qualify, the world doesn't end. Against a stocked Germany, France or Spain they don't have much of a chance, this way they could avoid a trashing.
Getting there whilst apart from 2014 losing to opponents beneath their pedigree talent wise. Chile besting them twice says it all.
Never gonna happen... Brazil have never lost a WC qualifier at home, you think they'd purposefully throw that away for this desperately struggling Argentina (which they crushed 3-0 only a few matchdays ago) ? Against Chile of all teams.
They'd get destroyed by the press and fans.
Are you kidding me?
If Brazil want to do their best to get Argentina knocked out they just need to not win by more than one goal. By drawing or winning by one goal they keep their record and hurt Argentina's chances. It's irrelevant that they let Chile win since an Argentina win mean Argentina qualifies.
Papu got denied by an unreal save and Rigoni by a great piece of defending, those were the two chances that should have gone in and it's not like they blatantly missed, it was just brilliant defending that stopped them. Messi missed his big chance too.
It's not like his teammates played like shit, even when they play world class forwards upfront they look clueless. The problem is the system, not the players. Argentina could field 2 elevens that would walk into Peru's team.
Well, sure in this case.
I just meant to point out that I think they wouldn't purposefully give up their unbeaten home record even if it guaranteed an Argentina elimination. If any non-losing result would guarantee it, then yeah.
Likewise an insane defensive effort by Trauco (Peru's #6) who also absurdly managed to block Rigoni's tap-in. If you watch the replays from other angles you'll see the defender manages to touch the ball away slightly at the same time Messi hits it. No excuse as I still feel he should've scored, but it's an indication of how fine the margins are in this environment. It sometimes does look like he's developped some sort of mental block when finishing for Argentina; although more rationally speaking he also just gets far fewer chances from those types of shooting positions.
The key is indeed as @antohan mentions, post-Riquelme Argentina (before and after Sabella) aren't a team, just individuals on a pitch galvanized on one end by Mascherano and on the other by Messi. Sometimes others step up, rarely is there any sort of consistency. And never too much logic.
Ok, but knocking Argentina out is just a dream come true
Didn't notice that one had been deflected too, despite all eyes being on Argentina Peru deserve a lot of credit for yesterday's result too.
Argentina are fine defensively, they're the second best defense in Conmebol after all. Even with their midfield problems they still manage to dominate most games, the problem is in the final third. The current setup simply does not work, 16 goals in 17 games is beyond a disaster especially when you have guys scoring pretty much everyweek for the top clubs in the world. Dybala and Messi both have to start and they need to learn how to play together because there's no point in leaving someone as good as Dybala on the bench.
Only in your crazy world chief, did you not read this part "because there are valid causes for it but the way you do it is fecked up IMHO. It's massive collective failure in Argentina, they're all to be blamed. Messi for not playing as well as he can and his teammates for being as shit as they are." ?? How the hell is that absolving him
?They're all at fault, there are reasons explaining why Messi is playing badly, just like there are reasons explaining why his teammates are playing badly too. How is that excusing him then ???
There ain't much difference to me tbh, if you have talent but do not use, what's the point ? Overall I got your point and I agree with you.
With Colombia choking against Paraguay I'm pretty sure Argentina will go through. Colombia and Perú face each other and as poor as Argentina has been I still think they will win against Ecuador. It will be pretty funny if they draw again (or lose) but there's no way they are left out of the World Cup.
However it is really concerning how poor they are at scoring, they're almost as poor as Venezuela but it could all just be the players not being able to handle the pressure. Many of them have played more in Europe than in Argentina, so I think they're not used to that type of pressure and environment.
However it is really concerning how poor they are at scoring, they're almost as poor as Venezuela but it could all just be the players not being able to handle the pressure. Many of them have played more in Europe than in Argentina, so I think they're not used to that type of pressure and environment.
Za? When? Where? 1994?
Messi's teammates are quite clearly not bad players. Aguero is a star, Higuain is a star, Di Maria, Mascherano, Pastore, Banega, Biglia, etc. All good to outright WC players in their own right. Yet they all turn into pumpkins for Argentina?(they actually don't) What gives?
You've said it: it's a team sport. And Argentina in its current Messi-centric iteration doesn't work. Messi isn't good enough to make it work, whether that's his fault or not doesn't matter. If they qualify for Russia they'll run it again next year, but i'd be very surprised to see them winning the WC. Messi's retirement was their cue to move on and they couldn't/wouldn't
There ain't much difference to me tbh, if you have talent but do not use, what's the point ? Overall I got your point and I agree with you.
1986 Argentina was a very good team.