As Rugby refuses to take the knee, is it time the Premier League stopped too?

[duffer]

There is a reasonable argument for stopping "taking the knee" but the OP has missed it totally in my mind.

When QPR stopped doing it, their Director of Football (Les Ferdinand, who played in the 80s/90s and 00s so probably knows a thing or two about racism in football) said that continuing to do has turned what was an important message into a token gesture with no real follow through. I see his point but it's not for me to tell anyone they shouldn't do it.

 

[Judas]

I did a little experiment with one of the matches towards the back end of last year when Sky were doing their interstitial screen and found that between the kneeling, timer adverts, hoarding adverts, interstitial adverts, tarp adverts etc. that there was a reference to BLM or adjacent messaging more than four times a minute on average.

Good, what's the problem with that.

Such a shame you weren't being ironic with your bizarre intense post.

 

[Uniquim]

Did he get the abuse because he made a mistake or because he’s black? DeGea got a fair amount too and he’s white. I haven’t read the tweets as I don’t do ‘social media’ but if Tuanzebe is targeted purely for his colour, that is not right. In fact, any sportsman that makes a mistake should not be abused as none of them are perfect. OK to be frustrated if their error has cost a game, but abuse is unnecessary and counter productive.

Seems to happen after he makes a mistake, but the comments are not that he 'played like shit', it's stuff like this:

Spoiler

N-word and ape/gorilla emojis. It's bang out of order.

 

[Raoul]

I agree, I mean racism is annoying sure, but I'm sick and tired of having to wait another 10 seconds while these snowflake footballing millionairs take a knee. It's virtue signalling gone wild!

I've done my own research and some white people are poor so racism doesnt exist anyway.

Am I doing this right? Just asking questions..

PS
I wanted to include cultural Marxism into the post, but couldn't find an angle.

 

[WeePat]

Ironically the OP is a great example of the knee taking working. You're in here asking questions [the wrong questions, but still questions] and facilitating an online conversation.

 

[Adisa]

Not doing more than taking the knee is similar to clapping for the NHS rather than actually paying the staff properly and giving them what they need to perform their jobs

You're making one big mistake. Clapping for the NHS is being propagated by the Tory government who are actually in a position to solve the NHS crisis. That makes the gesture empty.
Taking a knee is being driven by players who have no authority or capacity to solve the problem or do more than they are currently doing. They are doing what they feel they can.
Two totally different positions.

 

[Grinner]

There is a reasonable argument for stopping "taking the knee" but the OP has missed it totally in my mind.

When QPR stopped doing it, their Director of Football (Les Ferdinand, who played in the 80s/90s and 00s so probably knows a thing or two about racism in football) said that continuing to do has turned what was an important message into a token gesture with no real follow through. I see his point but it's not for me to tell anyone they shouldn't do it.

I'm sure a lot of players are thinking 'right, on to the knee.....count to ten....wicked, right that's racism sorted, on with the game'

I think it's time for more action but have no idea what that might be.

 

[Cheimoon]

Get your point, just feel there are lots of issues in life that are prevalent in football including a lot of phobias but we don't take a knee for those, anyway back on subject.

The aim of the knee is surely to stop racism indirectly, not to just to make people talk, for those thinking this will affect impressionable kids, I'd wager it wouldn't as much as their parents opinion, I stated earlier but I think there are more serious ways of prevention such as walking off, donating to charities that directly fight this sort of thing, it's all a bit passive for me,

I'm not opposing it just question it's effectiveness.

Who's saying they don't also do that though? Not necessarily every single individual and organization, but some or many of them. Also, even if they didn't, that would still not be a reason against taking a knee, given the little time and effort that it requires.

I mean, I totally agree that, if all the FA, clubs, and footballers are doing against racism is taking a knee, then that's a little lame. But it's still better than doing nothing. I really don't get the argument (maybe rather from the OP) that, if you don't do more, then don't take a knee either. What's gained by that?

 

[FrankDrebin]

Advert :Racism is bad
Guy : this is making me uncomfortable

 

[Bubz27]

Imagine being bothered by anti-racism messages so much that you spend an entire football match looking at advertising boards to see how often they have an anti-racism message on them.

Have more of a problem with that than say, the Adidas adverts in the very same boards.

 

[Solius]

I did a little experiment with one of the matches towards the back end of last year when Sky were doing their interstitial screen and found that between the kneeling, timer adverts, hoarding adverts, interstitial adverts, tarp adverts etc. that there was a reference to BLM or adjacent messaging every 12 seconds on average. That, to me, goes beyond merely making a point about a cause, to the extent of being invasive.

I think only someone who disagrees with the message would find it invasive.

 

[duffer]

I think it's time for more action but have no idea what that might be.

Well think of something. Get it sorted.

 

[SER19]

You're making one big mistake. Clapping for the NHS is being propagated by the Tory government who are actually in a position to solve the NHS crisis. That makes the gesture empty.
Taking a knee is being driven by players who have no authority or capacity to solve the problem or do more than they are currently doing. They are doing what they feel they can.
Two totally different positions.

I disagree on your second point. All of the bodies in the sport and all of the players could do plenty, if they had actionable goals. Repeatedly kneeling down every week loses its symbolic effect with time and needs to be replaced with realistic targets that can be actioned.

 

[Grinner]

You're making one big mistake. Clapping for the NHS is being propagated by the Tory government who are actually in a position to solve the NHS crisis. That makes the gesture empty.
Taking a knee is being driven by players who have no authority or capacity to solve the problem or do more than they are currently doing. They are doing what they feel they can.
Two totally different positions.

The FA could probably do a lot more to stop racism too.

 

[Adisa]

I disagree on your second point. All of the bodies in the sport and all of the players could do plenty, if they had actionable goals. Repeatedly kneeling down every week loses its symbolic effect with time and needs to be replaced with realistic targets that can be actioned.

What are the actionable goals?

 

[Grinner]

Well think of something. Get it sorted.

What have those who are at the sharp end of it proposed be done?

 

[Adisa]

The FA could probably do a lot more to stop racism too.

Isn't that on the FA and not the players. Bear in mind not every player feels strongly about the topic.

 

[Grinner]

Isn't that on the FA and not the players. Bear in mind not every player feels strongly about the topic.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

 

[NecssryEvil]

Just stopping the minor protest of kneeling and pushing to get back to normal feels like a very American thing to do. Our politicians over here count on this!

Kind of feels like some are saying: "Nothing has improved yet so let's stop anything that brings attention to it because it makes me uncomfortable". (Or, put another way - I just want to know when can we just get back to the good old days where we all just pretend it isn't a problem).

As one poster said, if it does nothing but start a conversation with someone you know about their experiences, then it is worth putting up with the 10 second kneel down before games.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Is taking the knee a little too politically loaded? Many people agree with the movement but disagree with certain elements of BLM. We can share recognition of a problem without necessarily agreeing to the same solutions (i.e. defunding the police, all the lingo like white privilege etc.). It becomes too dogmatic that way - i.e. letter of the law rather than spirit of the law. Is there not something else that can be done with less of a divisive approach?

Those who identify strongly with a left persuasion might be inclined to jump straight into the rationale of "if you have any problems with taking a knee, BLM etc. you're automatically deeply, unconsciously racist". This is fundamentally wrong. It might be true for some people but it isn't a rule.

Anyway, if the intention is to change hearts and minds, surely the gestures shouldn't be so ritualisitic and politically contentious? Otherwise it doesn't truly do much, and can even entrench people further into their ideological echo chamber.

One of the beautiful things about modern football is that most teams are ethnically diverse and we can see the bond and friendship between a squad of around 25 men from all different nationalities and backgrounds. THIS to me is more powerful than weekly gestures that either get diluted into a ritual or ones that have so many other connotations that exclude people from the main message. Surely the left actually WANT those on the right to be in accord? Why make it fecking difficult with all the extra rhetoric? Look into taking a knee; it's loaded as anything.

 

[Saffron]

Ironically the OP is a great example of the knee taking working. You're in here asking questions [the wrong questions, but still questions] and facilitating an online conversation.

It’s like the people who burn their own products from a specific brand because the brand took a stand for something. All that accomplishes is huge free exposure.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It’s like the people who burn their own products from a specific brand because the brand took a stand for something. All that accomplishes is huge free exposure.

Like those who wouldn’t shop at Sainsbury’s because of that Christmas advert.

 

[WeePat]

There is a reasonable argument for stopping "taking the knee" but the OP has missed it totally in my mind.

When QPR stopped doing it, their Director of Football (Les Ferdinand, who played in the 80s/90s and 00s so probably knows a thing or two about racism in football) said that continuing to do has turned what was an important message into a token gesture with no real follow through. I see his point but it's not for me to tell anyone they shouldn't do it.

Premier League announced an action plan today, in the context of football in the Premier League, so this seems like the gesture is followed through with action.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I remember the first time I saw a "no to racism" ad that aired around champions league games. As a non-white person I felt it was important young kids growing up in racist households were watching their football heroes say no to racism.

The players should keep sending the message. They can stop when people like OP don't feel the need to cry about it anymore and I don't get singled out for ticket inspections.

 

[SER19]

I think it's time for more action but have no idea what that might be.

Off the top of my head, some ideas, and ones in place getting properly enforced:

1) zero tolerance policy in stadiums with lifetime bans for any person guilty of racist abuse

2)an extension of this to ticketing, where a fan can be banned or prevented entry after any public or online charge of racism towards a player being proven. (yes I know we can't ban paedophiles and murderers but we're talking under the umbrella of football and racism)

3) harsh bans for any player guilty of racial abuse

4) a lifetime ban from all non league and amateur football for any player proven guilty of racist abuse. For underage football mandatory education for any younger player guilty of same.

5) ensuring minority players at each level feel adequately supported and represented by those in higher roles

6) A PFA led defence of any player who feels they are being treated differently by media due to race. This need not be a public debacle but behind the scenes communication of the players feelings should be followed up with a warning if it persists and finally an action taken where evidence has been gathered to make a case

7) a player led boycott of social media, encouraging other sports players and fans to do the same until anonymous accounts are better regulated

 

[Borys]

Is it mandatory now? I think it should be up to the players as well.

I get the argument it's no big deal to kneel for a few seconds, however I can imagine worst case scenario when kid asking "why do they go that" gets a response "because they are told to". Which I fear is already happening Basing on this thread.

 

[Adisa]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

You said The FA could do more? The players are the ones who decided to take a knee. If the FA don't decide to do more to combat racism, that's an indictment on the FA not the players taking a knee.
If you feel the players taking a knee should be doing something else, I am sure they are welcome to suggestions but no one seems to come up with any.

 

[SER19]

What are the actionable goals?

Posted some thoughts of my own above. But I'm sure those that feel so strongly about it within the game will have their own ideas

 

[WeePat]

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2021164

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

P.S. I agree, to some extent, with principles akin to Rooney Rule being applied to FA and football club management. There's something seriously wrong about the lack of BAEM representation in management. If we can jolt more BAEM candidates into managerial roles, albeit using quotas temporarily, it could do so much to increase aspirations amongst, say, black players that they can make it as managers. It can also serve to break conscious/subconscious notions of management roles being solely the domain of white men... this may also apply to female manager candidates who wish to apply for roles in the men's game. I hope someone like Emma Hayes can come in and break some stereotypes.

I shouldn't need to post the above but maybe people would look at my post before and come to a lazy image of where I stand.

 

[Grinner]

You said The FA could do more? The players are the ones who decided to take a knee. If the FA don't decide to do more to combat racism, that's an indictment on the FA not the players taking a knee.
If you feel the players taking a knee should be doing something else, I am sure they are welcome to suggestions but no one seems to come up with any.

Ah ok. No I think it's all on the FA to come up with actual policy. Players should also carry on hammering home the basic message. Kids idolise players, not FA suits.

 

[bsCallout]

I'm sure a lot of players are thinking 'right, on to the knee.....count to ten....wicked, right that's racism sorted, on with the game'

I think it's time for more action but have no idea what that might be.

Haven't Mane and Martial both completely forgot it and tried to run?

 

[duffer]

Premier League announced an action plan today, in the context of football in the Premier League, so this seems like the gesture is followed through with action.

Let's see what they do. I've seen their plan and I'm not particularly impressed.

 

[Champ]

I see the taking the knee has done its job...it's got people discussing racism and what can be done to stop it...

That's what's it there for, a bloody gesture to highlight the fact that it still exists and more needs to be done to eradicate it. Long may it continue.

 

[Deery]

I think they’ll stop taking a knee at the end of the season but it’s not political to me it’s just showing humanity for something that is wrong. You can’t stop now after a few months it must be carried on.

Even just highlighting is a positive move especially as we have seen our very own players getting it just this week. The sum of small efforts and all that..

 

[arnie_ni]

Not working? Based on what?

I'm not black, I'm brown. Grandparents from India, parents born in England, me too. And I know this isn't brown loves matter, but it has made people more aware of racial issues, in England and abroad. I've had more white friends ask me about racism and if I've actually experienced it since BLM, since taking the knee. How many of them have been shocked that I've had plenty of racist abuse in my life has actually shocked me. These are people I've known for 20 years.

So has this made people more aware of how much racism actually goes on? Yes.
Has it made them more aware of what racism actually looks like? Yes.

All because they're not afraid to ask the question now. They're not afraid to talk about it. I've never been one to tell all my woes to my friends. Like that guy guy in that club who kept asking me to get him a curry or that other guy who kept laughing with his mates that I looked like their Uber drive tonight and could I give them a lift home after.

So unless you know more than I do, don't say it's a token gesture and don't say it's not working.

Well to my untrained eye, racist abuse to footballers in particular seems worse than it ever was.

We need to do more as I already said.

Again I don't know what more is but something needs done because what we are seeing is unacceptable.

 

[Sky1981]

I just think it shouldn't be forced on anyone. If one player feels he wants to take the knee then by all means.

It kinda lost it meaning if everyone is made to knee and not doing so is painted as not being solider, which no doubt it will come to that.

And for good optics no teams are going to let 3 or 4 taking the knee alone. They'll bound to make everyone take the knee. Can you imagine if maguire didn't take one when pogba and Rashford taking the knee. PR disaster.

 

[bsCallout]

P.S. I agree, to some extent, with principles akin to Rooney Rule being applied to FA and football club management. There's something seriously wrong about the lack of BAEM representation in management. If we can jolt more BAEM candidates into managerial roles, albeit using quotas temporarily, it could do so much to increase aspirations amongst, say, black players that they can make it as managers. It can also serve to break conscious/subconscious notions of management roles being solely the domain of white men... this may also apply to female manager candidates who wish to apply for roles in the men's game. I hope someone like Emma Hayes can come in and break some stereotypes.

I shouldn't need to post the above but maybe people would look at my post before and come to a lazy image of where I stand.

The growth will be fairly organic, more black players will want to be coaches when they see more black coaches. I can't imagine many of them wanted to join the old boys club. More black players now will mean more black coaches which will mean more black coaches.

 

[Bubz27]

racist abuse to footballers in particular seems worse than it ever was.

I disagree. Completely, actually.

Is it easier for racist abuse to be in the public forum due to social media? Yes.

 

[starman]

Cant believe my Bono post was deleted...

Anyway, when crowds are back who's going to be joining in and taking that knee?