Auction Draft QF : EAP vs. Don Alfredo/Enigma

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Blanchflower was known for his exquisite vision and movement in the midfield playmaking role. He had an ability to dictate and change a game at an instant, linking up with the likes of Jimmy Greaves, Cliff Jones and Bobby Smith. He brought guile and vision to any team he played for.

He was also one of only a handful of players to have been awarded the accolade of English Footballer of the Year – not once but twice: in 1958 and 1961. Blanchflower captained the Spurs side that won a coveted FA league and cup double in the 1960-61 season, the first team to perform this in the 20th century.

Celebrated for his exquisite vision and movement in the midfield playmaking role as well as being a thinker and intellectual, Danny had the ability to dictate and change a game in an instant. He enabled his team to play with guile and flair.

Manchester United and England’s’ Bobby Charlton remarked “’You always felt he had something over you with his knowledge of the game.’

@Physiocrat

 

[Physiocrat]

Thanks for the info @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Himannv]

After a lot of reading and thinking about it, I'm just about going with EAP. I think the biggest mismatch here is his wingers against Abidal and Alves plus the trinity ensures that at least one of them has an outstanding match and wins the game. The only question mark is what damage Cruyff might do.

 

[Moby]

Members Who Replied this thread
Thread:

Auction Draft QF : EAP vs. Don Alfredo/Enigma

1. 47
   Enigma_87
2. 41
   Edgar Allan Pillow

Another classic Enigma slogfest. Not sure how he manages to bring it out in so many different managers, but whatever it is, he's really good at it!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'd have given this to Dogma by now if it was Cafu/Lahm/Zanetti on the pitch instead of Alves. While am not too excited by their wide players, the midfield battle is a no brainer.

EAP's team is uneven when it comes to quality across the pitch, but he hits Dogma hard in their weakest areas.

There is not enough of a delta to vote on this, so I guess I would call it a draw.

If I was pushed to call a winner, I would have gone with Dogma. My reason being not too many teams with a great attack/front 4 but relatively lesser back 6 have gone on to beat Xaviesta throughout their glory years.

The other way round (strong back 6 and relatively lesser front 4) has had more success though in comparison.

 

[Enigma_87]

Members Who Replied this thread
Thread:

Auction Draft QF : EAP vs. Don Alfredo/Enigma

1. 47
   Enigma_87
2. 41
   Edgar Allan Pillow

Another classic Enigma slogfest. Not sure how he manages to bring it out in so many different managers, but whatever it is, he's really good at it!

Not a patch on our game a while back

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

have gone on to beat Xaviesta throughout their glory years.

But this ain't Xaviesta in their glory years. Not even the same tactics, not the same supporting cast.

 

[Moby]

Not a patch on our game a while back

That was great.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

But this ain't Xaviesta in their glory years. Not even the same tactics, not the same supporting cast.

Its not the same tactics, agreed, but its still the same players. The game will still have a huge Xaviesta style footprint on proceedings unless you expect them to suddenly change their playing styles just because the tactics have been retuned a bit.

Regarding the supporting cast, there is scope to agree with you (Mauro Silva and the wide forwards could be improved), but then there is scope to disagree as well (Cruyff/Figueroa/Chumpitaz are all great fits).

To be honest I have not watched enough of Mackay and Blanchflower to be able to relate to them w.r.t stopping Xaviesta although Charlton is again a great fit against them. Maybe an @Ecstatic style of presentation of those two players would have been great for voters like me who are less aware of your double pivot.

 

[Gio]

Tough one to split. Prefer how Dogma have drafted, building around that quality core. But this is a shit match-up for them with two GOAT wingers up against the (relative) weak spots in Dogma's team. Charlton too is someone who I feel gets occasionally over-rated on here for obvious reasons, but his ability to float into wider areas and drop off the play would be invaluable here for EAP and isn't something a Barca-esque midfield would relish.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

All the best @Don Alfredo @Enigma_87

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers @Edgar Allan Pillow tough matchup to both teams. You had great wingers and we had a great midfield in essence negated each other in certain areas. Obviously love your team individually and was really hard pressed pointing out flaws..

 

[Zlatan 7]

Good game, both

 

[Enigma_87]

Tough one to split. Prefer how Dogma have drafted, building around that quality core. But this is a shit match-up for them with two GOAT wingers up against the (relative) weak spots in Dogma's team. Charlton too is someone who I feel gets occasionally over-rated on here for obvious reasons, but his ability to float into wider areas and drop off the play would be invaluable here for EAP and isn't something a Barca-esque midfield would relish.

Wonder what is your take on Silva in this midfield as I know you have picked him a lot and generally like him as a player.

Good game, both

cheers, mate.

 

[Jim Beam]

Charlton too is someone who I feel gets occasionally over-rated on here for obvious reasons,

Strange, I feel that he is probably the most underrated player in drafts. Best and Law are both far ahead of him in terms of their status or influence in the game.
If he wasn't part of the Holy Trinity would be picked even less often imo.

 

[Gio]

Wonder what is your take on Silva in this midfield as I know you have picked him a lot and generally like him as a player.

Yeah I liked the pick - pretty natural positionally in the base of a 433 and if he was £20m that was a bargain.

Strange, I feel that he is probably the most underrated player in drafts. Best and Law are both far ahead of him in terms of their status or influence in the game.
If he wasn't part of the Holy Trinity would be picked even less often imo.

I know United-supporting draft fans probably feel the opposite. I rate Law a lot, but don't think he necessarily gets more credit than Charlton.

 

[Jim Beam]

I know United-supporting draft fans probably feel the opposite. I rate Law a lot, but don't think he necessarily gets more credit than Charlton.

Don't know, put various, good supporting strikers with Law and it will look pretty damaging in most people eyes.
Best is Best...

Put Charlton with, well, Holy Trinity and that's about it. Never seen him getting a lot of credit on his own.

 

[Don Alfredo]

*applause* (sorry edgar)

Yeah, he would love to play with that kind of intelligence around him.

Cheers

All the best @Don Alfredo @Enigma_87

Thanks mate, you had an incredibly strong team.

 

[Gio]

Loved the midfield and attack @Edgar Allan Pillow. It probably would have passed for an all-time British league XI at least until the 1970s if not longer.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Loved the midfield and attack @Edgar Allan Pillow. It probably would have passed for an all-time British league XI at least until the 1970s if not longer.

I don't think Charlton, Matthews, Blanchflower or Mackay got the reception I was hoping for. But then it was a team I was happy with. So no regrets!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Put Charlton with, well, Holy Trinity and that's about it. Never seen him getting a lot of credit on his own.

I think the scale for #10s have changed so far favouring agility, quickness and dribbling ability that many old school RM who tend to work harder, drop deeper and get more involved in buildup, may not have the short distance fancy footwork, but still creative don't really get the deserved reaction.

 

[Moby]

I don't think Charlton, Matthews, Blanchflower or Mackay got the reception I was hoping for. But then it was a team I was happy with. So no regrets!

Think Mackay is massively overrated in the way he's usually thrown against top tier CMs and expected to make a match out of it. e.g. in this game Xavi and Iniesta would absolutely rinse him to the point he won't know what hit him. Blanchflower is definitely a very good player who if gets the hold of the game can make a big impact, but still I'd say most top CMs would do him over.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Think Mackay is massively overrated in the way he's usually thrown against top tier CMs and expected to make a match out of it. e.g. in this game Xavi and Iniesta would absolutely rinse him to the point he won't know what hit him. Blanchflower is definitely a very good player who if gets the hold of the game can make a big impact, but still I'd say most top CMs would do him over.

If there is one position that has changed very less over the years, it is a combative box-to-box midfielder. There has been some variation over some players being more offensive and other being more defensive, but overall the requirements and style for that position remains unchanged. A intelligent and combative CM like Mackay would easily make the transition to modern football with almost no drawbacks (fitness, nutrition etc being discounted). You obviously have the top tier of Matthaus, Davids, Keane, Vieira and he stils in tier below that (same level as Bremner, Lerby, Jansen, etc). Not really a type of player to get rinsed by anyone.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

If there is one position that has changed very less over the years, it is a combative box-to-box midfielder. There has been some variation over some players being more offensive and other being more defensive, but overall the requirements and style for that position remains unchanged. A intelligent and combative CM like Mackay would easily make the transition to modern football with almost no drawbacks (fitness, nutrition etc being discounted). You obviously have the top tier of Matthaus, Davids, Keane, Vieira and he stils in tier below that (same level as Bremner, Lerby, Jansen, etc). Not really a type of player to get rinsed by anyone.

I agree with @Moby. I think you've been massively overrating Mackay recently.

There are many names you are neglecting in your tiers that are above Mackay in that position.
Obdulio Varela, Goncalves, Zito, Clodoaldo, Mauro Silva, Dunga, Cerezo (in his holding mid early era), Gilberto Silva, John McGovern, Stielike, Mascherano, Monti, Andrade (the uncle), Deschamps, Voronin, Petit, Busquets, Romeo Benetti, Dino Baggio, Nobby Stiles, Gattuso, Souness, Kante

All of the names I mentioned are at least even to Mackay if not superior. Also many would be far better in different tactics than Mackey

 

[Jim Beam]

Rate Mackay over half of player on that list. Gattuso isn't a football player btw.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Gattuso and Kante ffs.

Monti, Varela, Goncalves, Dunga, Cerezo are the only ones in same tier. Stielike more of a holding and really a B2B from what I've seen of him.
JL Andrade is same type of player as Blanchflower. Even played same position. Should not be in Mackay discussion.
I'd gladly take Mackay over Mascherano, Kante, Gattuso and Benetti.

Souness is the only player I rate ahead of Mackay in your list.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Probably not relevant to discussion here, but while watching matches involving Bonhof with Gladbach, it was Stielike who stood out. What an absolute gem of a player who played almost everywhere on the pitch in all phases.

 

[Joga Bonito]

From the games that I watched Mackay impressed me significantly more than Blanchflower.

There are many names you are neglecting in your tiers that are above Mackay in that position.
Obdulio Varela, Goncalves, Zito, Clodoaldo, Mauro Silva, Dunga, Cerezo (in his holding mid early era), Gilberto Silva, John McGovern, Stielike, Mascherano, Monti, Andrade (the uncle), Deschamps, Voronin, Petit, Busquets, Romeo Benetti, Dino Baggio, Nobby Stiles, Gattuso, Souness, Kante

Probably not ideal to compare him with certain players there who were pure holding midfielders but amongst the players of the same ilk, I'd only take Stielike, Andrade, Voronin and Souness from that list.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Probably not relevant to discussion here, but while watching matches involving Bonhof with Gladbach, it was Stielike who stood out. What an absolute gem of a player who played almost everywhere on the pitch in all phases.

He really was. The successor of Beckenbauer for Germany and a force of nature for Real Madrid. He's not really well known outside of draft circles, not sure how Madrid fans think about him.

By the way, where did your interest in Bonhof come from? Usually not a player who wins the hearts of someone (think Liedholm as someone who got uncovered more and more and appreciated for his style and Bonhof doesn't fit into the same category of player).

I forgot to tell you, but you did great at using Bonhof as LWB and that was the reason I voted for you. I even watched parts of the EC final in 77 to find out more about him in that role.

 

[Moby]

If there is one position that has changed very less over the years, it is a combative box-to-box midfielder. There has been some variation over some players being more offensive and other being more defensive, but overall the requirements and style for that position remains unchanged. A intelligent and combative CM like Mackay would easily make the transition to modern football with almost no drawbacks (fitness, nutrition etc being discounted). You obviously have the top tier of Matthaus, Davids, Keane, Vieira and he stils in tier below that (same level as Bremner, Lerby, Jansen, etc). Not really a type of player to get rinsed by anyone.

My concern isn't the eras they played in, as you see I did rate Blanchflower despite being from an earlier era. I'd still rate the likes of Didi, Masopust, etc well into this era's tactical requirements, so it has nothing to do with how the position has transitioned. I just don't find Mackay good enough in terms of quality to come up against the top tier CMs, sure he was a tenacious player who'd try to make life difficult for you but I don't see the game intelligence and footballing IQ in him to predict how the better CMs will get at him. He'll usually be at the end of a go-around against the likes of Falcao, Xavi etc who play the game at a different level of thought process. A harsh comparison I'd make of a modern CM with Mackay would be Dennis Wise, a hard fecker but not much more - relatively of course.

The last sentence, I'd say Xaviesta would rinse a prime Keane or Robson, let alone good ol' Davey. And again, realistically, he's not a match for the creative geniuses that often feature in these drafts and ones he usually comes up against and is somehow expected to stand his own.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

By the way, where did your interest in Bonhof come from? Usually not a player who wins the hearts of someone (think Liedholm as someone who got uncovered more and more and appreciated for his style and Bonhof doesn't fit into the same category of player).

I have been very new to the full match binge watching to judge a player kind of thing (got tired of anecdote based judgements to be honest), so have mostly been picking anyone I have watched less but are rated well by the more knowledgeable posters here.

Bonhof I have watched the most since I have picked him 3 drafts in a row and played him in all his roles (RWB/LWB/B2B).

In fact my Kempes pick was inspired while watching Bonhof's Valencia games. Not that I had not watched full games of Kempes before, but Bonhof (B2B) and Kempes formed such an amazing partnership there that it became an easy choice.

I plan to make a combined compilation for my next game of the both of them from a game where they ran ragged and combined brilliantly. Already started but really struggling with breaking the full game into pieces. Am a Windows user if anyone has tips for any free software or website I should use.

I forgot to tell you, but you did great at using Bonhof as LWB and that was the reason I voted for you. I even watched parts of the EC final in 77 to find out more about him in that role

Cheers mate. While I expected him to do okay defensively from the left in that game, what surprised me was his heading ability while clearing crosses. So many last ditch headers which otherwise would have lead to goals. Still would call LWB his weakest position considering I used him in a 5-3-2 but definitely super versatile to leave his mark.

 

[Enigma_87]

I agree with @Moby. I think you've been massively overrating Mackay recently.

There are many names you are neglecting in your tiers that are above Mackay in that position.
Obdulio Varela, Goncalves, Zito, Clodoaldo, Mauro Silva, Dunga, Cerezo (in his holding mid early era), Gilberto Silva, John McGovern, Stielike, Mascherano, Monti, Andrade (the uncle), Deschamps, Voronin, Petit, Busquets, Romeo Benetti, Dino Baggio, Nobby Stiles, Gattuso, Souness, Kante

All of the names I mentioned are at least even to Mackay if not superior. Also many would be far better in different tactics than Mackey

I've picked him a lot recently and might have to do with the recent overrating so to speak.

I rate him a lot. He's a proper footballer and could be a hard man, distribute the play and generally he'd comfortably at the same level like Bremner and others of that era.

From that list, Petit has no place there, as well as Dino Baggio, Gattuso and Benetti. I'd take him before Stiles, Kante, McGovern, Cerezo and Mascherano, whilst can't really rate Andrade, due to the era.

My concern isn't the eras they played in, as you see I did rate Blanchflower despite being from an earlier era. I'd still rate the likes of Didi, Masopust, etc well into this era's tactical requirements, so it has nothing to do with how the position has transitioned. I just don't find Mackay good enough in terms of quality to come up against the top tier CMs, sure he was a tenacious player who'd try to make life difficult for you but I don't see the game intelligence and footballing IQ in him to predict how the better CMs will get at him. He'll usually be at the end of a go-around against the likes of Falcao, Xavi etc who play the game at a different level of thought process. A harsh comparison I'd make of a modern CM with Mackay would be Dennis Wise, a hard fecker but not much more - relatively of course.

The last sentence, I'd say Xaviesta would rinse a prime Keane or Robson, let alone good ol' Davey. And again, realistically, he's not a match for the creative geniuses that often feature in these drafts and ones he usually comes up against and is somehow expected to stand his own.

That is correct. I feel Xavi and Iniesta don't get their proper dues in drafts and one of the main reason why we went with them and this set up. Both at 160m or so is ridiculous considering that they both have a regular claim to be one of the best midfielders of all time. Mackay won't back down and will give a proper punch, but against the very elite tier of midfielders he falls short, let alone the combination of both. I agree with all you said above, although of course I'd have him as a much better version of Wise though.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I've picked him a lot recently and might have to do with the recent overrating so to speak.

I rate him a lot. He's a proper footballer and could be a hard man, distribute the play and generally he'd comfortably at the same level like Bremner and others of that era.

From that list, Petit has no place there, as well as Dino Baggio, Gattuso and Benetti. I'd take him before Stiles, Kante, McGovern, Cerezo and Mascherano, whilst can't really rate Andrade, due to the era.

See I think Mackey has no place even next to the Petit, Dino Baggio and Benetti tier let alone Kante, Cerezo and Mascherano. That just sounds bonkers to me

 

[Enigma_87]

See I think Mackey has no place even next to the Petit, Dino Baggio and Benetti tier let alone Kante, Cerezo and Mascherano. That just sounds bonkers to me

To be honest Mackay is a bit different ilk to the likes of Masch, Stiles, Benetti etc. He's more complete and more of an asset going forward. However, definitely won't swap him with Mauro Silva in terms of anchor as the latter is better, but as a half back or defensive B2B I'd probably take him before half of those players on the list.

The one who is always underrated and I think you will agree with me, since he's never picked in drafts, is Gilberto Silva.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I just don't find Mackay good enough in terms of quality to come up against the top tier CMs, sure he was a tenacious player who'd try to make life difficult for you but I don't see the game intelligence and footballing IQ in him to predict how the better CMs will get at him. He'll usually be at the end of a go-around against the likes of Falcao, Xavi etc who play the game at a different level of thought process. A harsh comparison I'd make of a modern CM with Mackay would be Dennis Wise, a hard fecker but not much more - relatively of course.

The more sites I research on the duo, half the sites and fan opinion rate Mackay ahead of Blanchflower. Both of them are consistently in the mix for greatest spurs player of all time along with Greaves, Hoddle and Gascoigne. Not a bad company to be a part of!

Mackay is the greatest spurs player of all time.

My old Tottenham team-mate Dave Mackay was the most complete professional footballer I've ever known, on and off the pitch. He was a genuinely hard b****d and a truly gifted ball player a combination which is so rare.

Dave could play in any outfield position, was a world-class midfield enforcer and sweeper and even understudied for me up front when I was suspended for a European semi-final.

I don't really see him as a thug, but rather a more complete footballer. Keane-Scholes would be closer to them than Netzer-Wimmer imo.

 

[Gio]

Spot the Gunner.

Just as an aside on Mackay, this is an extract from the match report of the second leg of the 1962 European Cup Semi-Final that Spurs lost 4-3 on aggregate to Benfica (who went on to thump Real in the final).

Bill Nicholson, Spurs manager, put his normal side in the field, on the strength of Saturday's FA Cup victory. Who is to say he was wrong? I think, in retrospect, that had Mackay been in attack his dynamic pace and power perhaps would have changed the tide and brought Benfica to the point of panic.

This was a memorable match, and off all the great players on the field more than any it was Mackay's match. At times it seemed he would willingly have played single-handed. No one ever possessed more energy or resilience, more power to come and come again. No one will ever forget his solo efforts in the last quarter of an hour, bringing Perreira to his knees and, with mere seconds to go, hitting the bar.

Two points stand out in that for me. First, the notion of Mackay being a limited defensive player, doesn't really ring true when the reporter at the time suggests he could have been pushed into attack to influence the game even more. Mackay used to bristle at the idea he was merely a have-a-go hardman akin to the many that plagued the English game - and hated that famous picture with him hoisting Bremner up by the collar - in much the same way we all get annoyed when anyone dismisses for instance, Keane, in the same way. Second, that man-on-a-mission box-to-box performance marked by both what he was doing and the influence he had on all those around him, delivered in the rarefied company of Coluna, Eusebio, Augusto et al. Both of those count a lot for me as a window into all the praise he received from his contemporaries.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Two points stand out in that for me. First, the notion of Mackay being a limited defensive player, doesn't really ring true when the reporter at the time suggests he could have been pushed into attack to influence the game even more. Mackay used to bristle at the idea he was merely a have-a-go hardman akin to the many that plagued the English game - and hated that famous picture with him hoisting Bremner up by the collar - in much the same way we all get annoyed when anyone dismisses for instance, Keane, in the same way. Second, that man-on-a-mission box-to-box performance marked by both what he was doing and the influence he had on all those around him, delivered in the rarefied company of Coluna, Eusebio, Augusto et al. Both of those count a lot for me as a window into all the praise he received from his contemporaries.

Nice. Wish you were there earlier in the match.

Anyway on Mackay, here is a description from Scottish Football Legends book that gives more information.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Spot the Gunner.

Spot the Scotsman

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Superb thread this. Perfect blend of handbags, wild claims and very interesting discussion