Best way to play with 10 men?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Chelsea were battered. Fortunately they didn't have a lingard.
Liverpool are immeasurably better then Young Boys, yet after the pen Chelsea conceded no goals, while we conceded 2 to a team who would struggle to stay in the Championship.
Sure they defended better. Even with 11 men they are a better possession team than us, so it's easier to reorganize even after a red card, but did they ever look like snatching the win? I think they just gave up attacking. People talk about formation and all, but Tuchel is even more defensive than Ole, he's just better at it.
Would Chelsea have reacted that way against Young Boys, as opposed to Liverpool though?
Not exactly the same are they?
Accept the fact that the odds are against you with 10 men and even if you do a lot right you will likely walk away with a loss against a competent team.
Think it's more about the opposition and how they play. You need to identify where they don't apply enough pressure and use that position to play like you're with 11.
It also important to have two high energy midfielders though.
It also important to have two high energy midfielders though.
If you don't have to score then just take off a striker. At the level we're supposed to be at you should be able to shut anyone out (and especially Young Boys) for an hour. As has been mentioned, Chelsea did this against a much better class of opposition and the key was the midfield. We looked like a poor Ireland side last night after the sending off, with no real connection between the front and back. But that is who we are, even when we beat a team convincingly, we are just better at attacking, showing no real control or game management. Going to a back 5 before the 90th minute is unforgivable. Also, Sancho was the last of the attackers that should have been taken off IMO. I thought Ole got almost every decision wrong last night.
Look how we played last night and do the exact opposite.
I think the best would be to take out one of the forwards and try to keep the same formation. Of course it also depends on the score and how many minutes are left to play. So if there are about like 60 minutes left to play I don't think it would be wise to park bus and give up the attack and midfield.
Depends how you define “likely” and “competent”. As @moses said, a team as (allegedly) good as us should be able to shut a team like Young Boys out for 60 minutes far more often than not, even when a man down.
Obviously stopping them scoring involves not allowing them 71% possession for that hour. That was just asking for trouble.
Jose's Inter held Barca at bay for longer with 10 men I think. 2010, Motta sent off early, conceded only 1, won 3-2 on aggregate. Again the key was the midfield, shielding the defence, and holding possession long enough for people to breathe and regroup, and posing a long ball threat down the channels to occupy the defence. Greenwood or Sancho on the shoulder of the last defender would have given them something to think about, especially if we had a deep sitting midfielder with any passing range.
Pep can do it no problem.
Pep the player would have been priceless last night.
Nah, it's been done by too many to dismiss it. My favourite was in euro 2000(?) when Italy lost Iuliano early on and drew 0-0 with Holland after extra time, then beat them on penos. That was their only way to win after the sending off and they relished it. (I won money on the result, doubled the bet when they went a man down).
So while it's not a guarantee, the teams that have done it have the personnel and coaching to do it. With the gulf in class last night, the right set up and personnel would see you through more often than not IMO.
No idea, but feels like we know the worst today.
As many others have said, you take off an attacker and play largely the same formation/tactics in defense and midfield that you're used to playing and, presumably, good at playing.
You obviously don't press high anymore because you don't have the numbers. You sub the attackers eventually because they're going to have to do a ton of work without the ball chasing shadows and because they need to have the energy once you do get the ball to move to become your outlet and the strength/ability to hold it up a little bit and let others come into play.
To the extent you look to score, its going to be off a very quick counter if they're throwing everybody forward or you look to win a few set pieces in the attacking third and give it a real go off those.
You obviously don't press high anymore because you don't have the numbers. You sub the attackers eventually because they're going to have to do a ton of work without the ball chasing shadows and because they need to have the energy once you do get the ball to move to become your outlet and the strength/ability to hold it up a little bit and let others come into play.
To the extent you look to score, its going to be off a very quick counter if they're throwing everybody forward or you look to win a few set pieces in the attacking third and give it a real go off those.
4-4-1 is the clear outlet.
I would of going for a midfield of Sancho- Fred-VDB-Greenwood with Bruno as a false nine.
You need that wing space when down to 10 men.
Ronaldo and Pogba would of been replaced by Dalot and Greenwood.
I would of going for a midfield of Sancho- Fred-VDB-Greenwood with Bruno as a false nine.
You need that wing space when down to 10 men.
Ronaldo and Pogba would of been replaced by Dalot and Greenwood.
I'd go with a 441 with the guy up top being a false 9.
You, as the team with 10 men, have to have something you're good at (identity), then work from there taking opposition's quality, the scoreline, the revised best outcome into account.
Managers may change the formation, team shape, when they're a man down; but most of them had prepare the team for the situation, and retain fundamental function of the team. To have a team totally play like stranger in their first day with others is reflecting badly on the manager's preparation work.
Managers may change the formation, team shape, when they're a man down; but most of them had prepare the team for the situation, and retain fundamental function of the team. To have a team totally play like stranger in their first day with others is reflecting badly on the manager's preparation work.
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Agreed with anyone saying 4-4-1. The natural inclination is to put on more defenders and go 3 CBs with wingbacks or something, but you end up inviting more pressure and making it much more difficult to get out of your own final third.
Speaking entirely from a football manager perspective, I’d always go 4-4-1. Last night I’d have been tempted to sacrifice one of Bruno or Pogba initially (just because Sancho is more used to the winger role). Then 2nd half it’s all about legs and workrate really.
441
De Gea
Dalot Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred Matic
Bruno Pogba
Ronaldo
Dalot Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred Matic
Bruno Pogba
Ronaldo
Best? Probably not, but I'd be tempted to try a sort of 4-2-3-0/4-3-2/4-5-0 these days.
Strikerless, wide men/wing forwards the furthest players forward. They'd need to be mobile, hard working and have good stamina as they need to support the midfield when out of possession too.
Plenty of bodies still in midfield so you can attempt to play a keep ball.
On the counter you can try to hit the wide players who can isolate against a full back rather than a central striker being up against what will likely be 2 central defenders. Hopefully that's easier for them to find space.
Would be dropping off a lot of the time when their central defenders have the ball. Could come undone if one of them is particularly gifted at passing or even dribbling.
Don't really think we had the right players on the pitch to make that work well yesterday if that's what it's about.
---------------------GK------------------
-----RB------CB------CB-----LB----
----DM/CM--CM/AM--DM/CM-
-RWF---------------------------LWF-
Strikerless, wide men/wing forwards the furthest players forward. They'd need to be mobile, hard working and have good stamina as they need to support the midfield when out of possession too.
Plenty of bodies still in midfield so you can attempt to play a keep ball.
On the counter you can try to hit the wide players who can isolate against a full back rather than a central striker being up against what will likely be 2 central defenders. Hopefully that's easier for them to find space.
Would be dropping off a lot of the time when their central defenders have the ball. Could come undone if one of them is particularly gifted at passing or even dribbling.
Don't really think we had the right players on the pitch to make that work well yesterday if that's what it's about.
---------------------GK------------------
-----RB------CB------CB-----LB----
----DM/CM--CM/AM--DM/CM-
-RWF---------------------------LWF-
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I thought it was a mistake. I just dont think Dalot is trusted as a full back. he's probably played as a winger as often for Solskjaer as in a back 4.
I get bringing Varane on, that made total sense but it should have been for Lindelof. Maguire and Lindelof were pretty comfortable even after going down to 10, bringing on Varane was enough to keep us covered back there. If he wanted to protect Dalot then throw Lingard on the wing ahead of him to track back or stick Fred on his side, he can't be so bad that he needs an extra cb to do all the defending for him. Bailly, Matic and Telles were on the bench and with a bit of shuffling you could get an extra cb if they bring on an extra attacker.
A lot of their attacks were starting wide, i'd want my wide players to drop back and support the full back and midfield.
I'd leave one player forward to try and keep their defenders honest, making runs out to the channels would be nice. They need to be able to offer some threat on their own really, no ones is going to worry too much about lingard.
441 last night basically. The 423 was mostly fine too.
Exactly, the best form of defence against teams like this is attack. There was a thread on here over the weekend about fear factor. Well the precise thing you do not want to do, is surrender all attacking threat and sub off all your forwards including the best one ever. We could’ve won that even with 10, but we invited them onto us and you could see their bollocks growing by the minute. We needed to be strong and we blew it.
I'd have taken off Bruno because he's wasteful on the ball and its a bad idea with 10 men.
Dalot-Maguire-Varane-Shaw
Fred-Matic-VDB
Greenwood-Ronaldo
3 at the back doesn't work because you need able wingbacks to ensure the team isn't penned back too much. If one resorts to hoof ball it fecks it all up. We played 3 at the back, so it meant our midfield had zero control. Lingard was struggling to hold the ball in deep areas and Dalot kept punting it back to them. It was all a mess.
Dalot-Maguire-Varane-Shaw
Fred-Matic-VDB
Greenwood-Ronaldo
3 at the back doesn't work because you need able wingbacks to ensure the team isn't penned back too much. If one resorts to hoof ball it fecks it all up. We played 3 at the back, so it meant our midfield had zero control. Lingard was struggling to hold the ball in deep areas and Dalot kept punting it back to them. It was all a mess.
They really weren't.
The penalty following the red card put Liverpool's xG up to 1.45 after 49 minutes. They ended up on 2.08, with Chelseas keeping them down to 0.63 for the remaining 41 minutes plus injury time. At half time Liverpool's xG was 0.69 so if you take the penalty out of it there was no discernable difference to Liverpool's goalscoring threat in the second half.
The 1.32 overall xG that Liverpool created in open play throughout the game is just not a battering. It's less than they created against all of their other 3 opponents in the league so far.
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We had the best chance of the second half mate.
http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2021/...h-stats-expected-goals-shots-map-lfc-1-1-cfc/
66% - 34% possession, 24 shots to 6, 12 corners, 4 big chances and twice as many passes.
I'd go with this.
Perhaps that bloke's xG model is superior to both Understat's and Michael Caley's but that seems really off to me. Fbref put it halfway in between.
I think that guy might have counted the chance(s) that led to the penalty as well as the penalty itself in the total whereas the others didn't? Hard to tell but would explain it, looks like there's a big dot from where Matip headed it and also from around the area where James conceded the penalty from Mane's effort.
2 or even 3 of the attempts leading up to the penalty plus the penalty itself may be 3 of the 4 big chances.
Does he do a timeline on there that I'm not seeing? I don't remember Liverpool having many big chances after Chelsea were down to 10.
Possession, , corners etc. don't really mean much if you're not creating much from then and shot count doesn't if they're not good chances.
Here's Understat's timeline for what its worth.
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As much as I agree that Ole got all the second half subs wrong, on paper, this shouldn’t have mattered too much given the supposed gulf in class between Utd and YB.
However the second half defensive and hoof ball tactics employed made the formation irrelevant. There were no calm heads or any attempt to keep the ball from the opposition to stifle their attacks. Instead Utd got deeper and deeper and tried to rely on having a “world class” defensive pairing + Lindelof to keep a clean sheet.
The earlier poster who presented how Bayern would have responded got it spot on. Against a lower level team, even with 10 men, Utd should have been playing to get a second goal instead of hanging on and parking the bus.
The withdrawal of Sancho for Dalot made sense at the time, it was the half time decision to go ultra defensive that killed us.
However the second half defensive and hoof ball tactics employed made the formation irrelevant. There were no calm heads or any attempt to keep the ball from the opposition to stifle their attacks. Instead Utd got deeper and deeper and tried to rely on having a “world class” defensive pairing + Lindelof to keep a clean sheet.
The earlier poster who presented how Bayern would have responded got it spot on. Against a lower level team, even with 10 men, Utd should have been playing to get a second goal instead of hanging on and parking the bus.
The withdrawal of Sancho for Dalot made sense at the time, it was the half time decision to go ultra defensive that killed us.
It's not easy.
Easily Chelsea's worst performance under Tuchel was that game v West Brom. 1 up and think it was Silva who was sent off and they conceded five in the end. Always worse to lose a CB I think as pretty much always means you have to put on a sub unless one of the midfielders can slot into the backline. Can be o.k if you lose a wide play as you just narrow the midfield then.
Worst though has to be the rare occasions a keeper gets sent off as you automatically have to make a sub and pretty much means an attacker has to go off so a double whammy in one go.
Easily Chelsea's worst performance under Tuchel was that game v West Brom. 1 up and think it was Silva who was sent off and they conceded five in the end. Always worse to lose a CB I think as pretty much always means you have to put on a sub unless one of the midfielders can slot into the backline. Can be o.k if you lose a wide play as you just narrow the midfield then.
Worst though has to be the rare occasions a keeper gets sent off as you automatically have to make a sub and pretty much means an attacker has to go off so a double whammy in one go.
...and West Brom are infinitely worse than Liverpool. Chelsea and genius Tuchel still lost 5-2 to them after playing with ten men for most of the game last season. City with genius Pep lost 3-2 to fecking Brighton after being 2 up and playing with ten men last season, and Leicester under (fading) genius Rodgers lost 4-1 to West Ham after getting one man sent off after 40 minutes a couple of weeks ago.
It is just fecking hard to play 10 against 11 for most of the game in real life.
Edit: The only manager who has worked around it is Klopp. No Liverpool players have been sent off since 2019. Weirdly, they still lost games.
4-4-1, keep the midfield tight and narrow, maintaining as high a defensive line as possible, and have your quickest fittest forward up front running the channels as best he can.
play to your strengths its that simple. We didn't and payed for that cardinal sin. We should have set up to pick young boys off on the counter. we instead set up to park the bus and sit on a lead. Which isn't our strengths and played into theirs: Which is attacking with reckless abandon
We should have been set up this way at the start of second half:
de gea - dalot varane mcguire shaw - Fred - vasn de beek pogba -- bruno- Cr7
then we should have taken pogba and bruno off because of their risky passing that loses possession against 11 men counter pressers. brought on Matic for Pogba. To act as a deep 6/3rd cb. Greenwood for Ronaldo. Lingard or Martial for bruno,. using themn as split strikers. to end up like this
de gea - dalot varane maguire shaw - matic - DVB Fred - Greenwood Lingard/Martial
even with the back 5 at worst we could have set up to counter. By encouraging shaw and dolot to attack.Then by bringing grreenwood and lingard to run either side of cr7.
we plain just bottled it
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Yeah it was a great performance by Martins, the scream was just loud enough for the ref to hear and not too many rolls.