"Blackface" Discussion

Captain Obvious

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To all the "griezzman dindu nuffin"s on here, i suggest you read this before you start saying "this isnt offensive" on behalf of all black people. Youre not supposed to be offended, its offensive to a lot of black people

In the United States, blackface was used as part of Minstrel Shows, which is basically a comedy show where the only joke was basically "Wow, black people sure are stupid!" As you can imagine, incredibly fecking offensive. Blackface was also used on stage or screen so that a show could have black characters, without having to actually, you know, hire black people. The white actors would then usually play up negative black stereotypes in the process.

So there is a lot of history of blackface being used as a method of mocking black people. But, hey, that's just history. Why would it be offensive today?

Your point that you wouldn't be offended by a black person in "whiteface", or that it is the same as wearing a red wig, is what we might call 'false equivalency'; within a larger cultural context, it isn't the same thing. There are several reasons for this.

The first and most straightforward is that the mentality of the ministrel show hasn't disappeared. A lot of people who wear blackface in their costumes for Halloween or whatever use it as an excuse to make fun of black people, so people are wary of it. But that doesn't make in intrinsically racist, right?

Well, no, nothing is "intrinsically" anything when talking about race, because race isn't skin deep. You appear to believe in a sort of colourblind mentality towards race, in that it doesn't matter at all what race you are. Well, race is kind of an absurd concept (see below the break) because humans pretty much just made it up, but humans also just sort of made up things like governments, laws and economies, which are also important and "real" things. So let's talk about race. Really talk about it.

To many people, especially people of colour, race matters. It can matter in a lot of negative ways, manifesting in poor treatment, harassment, or simply the circumstances into which they were born, statistically. It can also matter in many positive or affirmative ways; concepts like "Black culture" or "Black pride" exist as a counterpoint, a way for Black people to take pride in themselves and their experiences, and to explore concepts that dominate culture, white culture, doesn't have experience with that many Black people do. Serious stuff, like mistreatment by the police and justice system, or basic stuff, like hair. Hair! Bet that's something you've never thought about at length (lol) but it's a pretty important issue for Black folks in America.

To white folks like us, this often doesn't make a lot of sense; we were taught as kids that race doesn't matter. But it's very easy to say that something that rarely seems to affect us doesn't matter; our race as white people is seen by society as default, our experiences as normal. Our stories get to be the ones that get retold and remembered, and we retell and remember them quite frequently. It's like saying it doesn't matter who wins or loses, after collecting the trophy and the prize money.

So something like whiteface doesn't affect us; it's just skin tone, after all. It's also why, as Americans who are very disconnected, often by generations, from our European ancestors, we often don't give a shit about those stereotypes either. I don't give a shit when people make Scottish jokes, and I wouldn't give a shit if people made Czech jokes, if those were jokes people over here made. It's not all that important to me.

If you are a person of colour in America, it is impossible not to notice race. Even if you've never been subject to malicious racism, you know that you are perceived as an outsider to the dominant culture. Even if you didn't want to care about race, race has been made important for you, personally. You've experienced a lot of shit you know is basically invisible to white people because of "just" your skin tone.

So when some white guy rolls along in blackface, or using black slang or trying to use the n-word positively or neutrally, it rings hollow. It's a mockery, somebody who thinks that all you need to emulate this giant, deeply personal and nuanced concept of Blackness is some shoe polish.

That's what's offensive
.
Read the bold part and then say its not offensive. I dont think Griezzman is a racist, im betting hes probably ignorant to the issue
 

Fridge chutney

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And the interpretation is the same? The only reason people from the US think it's racist is because they are, in fact, racist. It's like with Suarez: the word 'black' in his country doesn't have any racial connotations to it in his country but because the English are racist themselves and use that word racially they think he was being racist. What's happening here is people are applying their cultural standards to Antoine and calling him ignorant. The fecking irony.
You're completely out to lunch on this issue and the Suarez example is an absolutely terrible one. Racism is a huge problem in South America, with black and indigenous people being the primary populations disadvantaged by racism. Argentina and Uruguay are two of the most racist countries, and I have seen it myself in those countries. It is because racism is normalized and ingrained in society that Suarez thought his behaviour was okay, which it absolutely isn't.

Ignorance is never an excuse, including in Griezmann's case. Not sure what people would think if I went down the street doing goose step and the Hilter salute, but I sure as heck wouldn't expect the excuse of ignorance to bail me out.
 

Rhyme Animal

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You have to laugh at all the 'What-aboutisms', bless 'em...

'What about Jesus whiting up in all his pictures...? He was from the middle east over 2000 years ago, but in all his pictures he's dressed up as a white surfer dude, in a blonde wig and sandals...if Jesus was whiting up, why can't I wear my novelty dreadlock wig and face paint?'

I think people need to start doing more generalization parodies of the 'What-aboutism' guys, then they'd start to understand how it feels!
 
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Vilev

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I remember Smalling was dressed as a terrorist. Honestly, how are they thinking it's funny or a good idea? And what bugs me most, is that it's not exactly spur-of-the-moment decision. You need costume, quite a bit of preparation and so on. So like a lot of time to realize that maybe you shouldn't do it.
 

2 man midfield

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I remember Smalling was dressed as a terrorist. Honestly, how are they thinking it's funny or a good idea? And what bugs me most, is that it's not exactly spur-of-the-moment decision. You need costume, quite a bit of preparation and so on. So like a lot of time to realize that maybe you shouldn't do it.
My guess is he was so caught up in believing this was actually a good way to pay tribute to a hero that he never even considered it. He only ever had good intentions, his only crime is ignorance really.
 

kouroux

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A reminder a white person can dress up as a black person without going in blackface. The blackface makes it racist.
I'm black and I don't even think it's remotely racist. Black people are some of the biggest hypocrites tbh, we use racism at times when it suits us without even realizing how we can also have racist tendencies. It's a bad PR move granted, a very stupid in this very sensitive world we live in but in no way do I see this as racist. It's just a stupid mistake.
 

7even

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This is a very sensitive subject so I will be careful with my wording. Before I start let’s make one thing clear. I’m a white middle aged man living in a very white society so I write from that perspective.

Just like in the MeToo campaign I want to be a good man. I don’t want to take advantage of my position, gender, race or my economical status. I know it’s hard to change behavior. To climb down. It’s not an excuse but changing mentality takes time. I’m definitely not a racist. God forbid, but I have some racist behavior because I’m a product of my environment. Mostly unintentional or because I’m ignorant.

My daughter asked me, a man and a father who’s in a position to take important economical decisions regarding other people’s life, why in general, in our country, women, HBQT and colored people have less income, less power, less privileges then white men. Especially the question regarding income caused her anger. I was thinking long and hard before I replied.

First a little bit of history from my perspective. When I was young one salary could feed one family. Where I come from it was very rare with colored people. HBQT was almost unknown. In short. I grew up very far away from today’s problem. Racism wasn’t an issue for me. The few people with colored skin was warmly welcomed because they where not a threat to the homogene society who dominated my country.

In the nineties it changed a little bit. More immigrants, more problems connected to assimilation and more polarizing opinions regarding race and religion. The last five years has changed everything. Suddenly we have a totally divided community. Everybody with more then two brain cells condemn racism but talking is one thing, acting another.

Now to the point. The answer how to eliminate structural racism is in my opinion more education. Individuals talking to other individuals. Just like in the MeToo campaign. Without knowledge it’s difficult to rapidly change behavior. Nobody (who’s normal) wants to be bad, to be a racist, to intentionally or unintentionally abuse women or immigrants.

This thread educated me about Blackface. I didn’t know. Many posters wrote their own story’s about how to be colored in the US. I knew some of it but not everything. And I’m fairly educated, been around all parts of the world several times. Lived abroad. Have one daughter with mixed race. Still I have blind spots.

So guys. Help each other. Educate those of us who are ignorant. Show us your reality. Help us to be better. I say the same thing I say to my daughter. Educate me about your daily problems and I will understand your life so much better. Help me and I help you.

Sorry for a long text saying obvious things.

Btw. Regarding Griezmann. Hang him, shame him and then forgive him. He, and others, will learn a lesson but the next step is to move on like friends. That’s the hard part.
 

Keeps It tidy

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Worth remembering Griezmann will not face any actual repercussions for this(and I am not saying he should). The worst thing that will probably happen to him is a stern talk from Lilian Thuram. And we will probably forget all about this in a few weeks. So do not feel too bad for Griezmann.
 

Keeps It tidy

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I'm black and I don't even think it's remotely racist. Black people are some of the biggest hypocrites tbh, we use racism at times when it suits us without even realizing how we can also have racist tendencies. It's a bad PR move granted, a very stupid in this very sensitive world we live in but in no way do I see this as racist. It's just a stupid mistake.
If you think it was a stupid thing that he should not have done what exactly are you arguing here? Whether we call it racist or not he did a stupid thing and he should have known better. Because of that he deserves this very brief period of outrage(once again we will all forget about this story in a few weeks and he will face zero repercussions). And if a famous black Footballer does something that is racially or culturally insensitive I would not hesitate to criticize him too. I have no idea where you are going with the "biggest hypocrites" line. Black people are not a monolith we all do not share the same opinions. A great example is that right now we are two black people who are disagreeing.
 

ReallyUSA

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I'm black and I don't even think it's remotely racist. Black people are some of the biggest hypocrites tbh, we use racism at times when it suits us without even realizing how we can also have racist tendencies. It's a bad PR move granted, a very stupid in this very sensitive world we live in but in no way do I see this as racist. It's just a stupid mistake.
How isn't it fecking racist when that's the reason it was done (historically)? You are moving the conversation. The act, by itself, is racist. Doesn't mean Antoine is marching with Klan in Arkansas or anything, but this is a historic thing across all countries.
 

Moby

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but this is a historic thing across all countries.
Not all countries. I wouldn't be surprised if Greizmann has never heard of this history. He's a kid.

He went to a party as an 80s basketball player, most of whom were black.

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw that was Julius Erving, not blackface.
 

Kapardin

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How isn't it fecking racist when that's the reason it was done (historically)? You are moving the conversation. The act, by itself, is racist. Doesn't mean Antoine is marching with Klan in Arkansas or anything, but this is a historic thing across all countries.
He's not racist because he doesn't have a brain in his head in the first place to bear such malice.

Look at that crazy haircut he had at the start of the season, that should give you a clue as to how dumb he actually is.
 

kouroux

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How isn't it fecking racist when that's the reason it was done (historically)? You are moving the conversation. The act, by itself, is racist. Doesn't mean Antoine is marching with Klan in Arkansas or anything, but this is a historic thing across all countries.
I'm not moving the conversation, the blackface is defo racist, you won't have any arguments about it. He was just clueless about it therefore making what he did not a true racist act for me but one of extreme ignorance and stupidity. An act is racist for me at the moment there is a clear intent and knowledge of the context. Like Suarez calling Evra a "negrito". A racist act by someone who I also don't think was a racist. This is different, ignorance shouldn't excuse anything anyway.

He's not racist because he doesn't have a brain in his head in the first place to bear such malice.

Look at that crazy haircut he had at the start of the season, that should give you a clue as to how dumb he actually is.
Exactly, Griezmann has always been thick. Even as a youngster he showed clear signs of harmless stupidity.


If you think it was a stupid thing that he should not have done what exactly are you arguing here? Whether we call it racist or not he did a stupid thing and he should have known better. Because of that he deserves this very brief period of outrage(once again we will all forget about this story in a few weeks and he will face zero repercussions). And if a famous black Footballer does something that is racially or culturally insensitive I would not hesitate to criticize him too. I have no idea where you are going with the "biggest hypocrites" line. Black people are not a monolith we all do not share the same opinions. A great example is that right now we are two black people who are disagreeing.
I'm arguing that there is no racist intent in his act, that is all. He did make a huge stupid mistake that might hurt from a PR point of view.
I admit that I shouldn't have generalized (as this is also the principle of racism, I see the irony) and that is my mistake. I just think many black people are truly oversensitive about things they don't even apply to themselves. I don't wanna derail this thread and it was a bit wrong of me to go about it that way.
 

simonhch

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Even if you never heard of blackface, you’d have to be a special brand of stupid to not deduce this was at best an ignorant thing to do, and at worst a very offensive one.

Clearly not the sharpest tool in the box. Prized plonker tbh.
 

kouroux

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Even if you never heard of blackface, you’d have to be a special brand of stupid to not deduce this was at best an ignorant thing to do, and at worst a very offensive one.

Clearly not the sharpest tool in the box. Prized plonker tbh.
Exactly, you can listen to him speaking in french to realize exactly what you just said.
 

Siorac

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It's a massive deal in the USA but I doubt the majority of the European population realizes how serious of an issue it is. Could be a simple case of cultural ignorance.
It's almost certainly a case of sheer ignorance but I'm still staggered that he had no one to tell him what an incredibly terrible idea this is.

This is the sort of the thing that without historical context, living in the ideal world, would not be offensive in itself. Unfortunately, we do have historical context and do not live in an ideal world.
 

BBRBB

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Blackface is not a thing in France and even less in Spain.

Should the rest of the world let the US views of what may or may not be offensive rule their lives?
 

fergieisold

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It's almost certainly a case of sheer ignorance but I'm still staggered that he had no one to tell him what an incredibly terrible idea this is.

This is the sort of the thing that without historical context, living in the ideal world, would not be offensive in itself. Unfortunately, we do have historical context and do not live in an ideal world.
It's only a terrible idea because people have made it a 'thing'. I've had coloured friends 'white' up for parties, it's just a bit of fun! People need to enjoy each others differences and get on with life.
 

Epicurean

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The amount of people calling Europeans thick and stupid for not knowing about 19th century American minstrel shows is ridiculous.
Dont you know! The whole world must know Anglo culture and if they don’t they’re thick and stupid. The irony.
 

Mister_Stubbs

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I'm black and I don't even think it's remotely racist. Black people are some of the biggest hypocrites tbh, we use racism at times when it suits us without even realizing how we can also have racist tendencies. It's a bad PR move granted, a very stupid in this very sensitive world we live in but in no way do I see this as racist. It's just a stupid mistake.
Sense spoken. You still won’t convince the average middle class white man not to be offended though.
 

Untied

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Blackface is not a thing in France and even less in Spain.

Should the rest of the world let the US views of what may or may not be offensive rule their lives?
These Spanish fans knew exactly what they were doing to Lewis Hamilton:

 

LInkash

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Good thing we have some people who live under a rock here, sparks debate and increases awareness of the issue.
 

JPRouve

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Blackface is not a thing in France and even less in Spain.

Should the rest of the world let the US views of what may or may not be offensive rule their lives?
By Blackface isn't a thing you mean that the term doesn't exist which is true or that the shows didn't exist, because that's wrong, they mainly disappeared after the 30s but we still got something like that and he was still criticized last week:

 

Vato

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Errm...

Anti-racism campaigners in Spain and the Netherlands were celebrating on Thursday after two long-criticised traditions involving white faces being painted black were abolished.
Completely false. These traditions have never been a problem until the offended snowflake twitter era.
 

Judas

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There's so many posters on here who I always thought as pretty intelligent, but it just proves a good knowledge of a sport, doesn't equal intelligence on the real world. Truly baffled by the ignorance of so many. Cultural divide perhaps, you can blame age too, or maybe some on here are simply not even close to the sort I'd ever want to mix with in real life.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Completely false. These traditions have never been a problem until the offended snowflake twitter era.
Or most likely when people of colour were given more of a say in the media.
 

ivaldo

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Why is this any different to Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder?

Some people just look for ways to be offended these days. I’m bloody sick of it.
It's been mentioned several times throughout this thread. Jr's character is satire, leaning on tired stereotypes while incredulously being praised by the media world for his acting talent. We are supposed to laugh at his ignorance, not with it. Jacksons character is the voice of the audience, bemused that this seems to be acceptable behaviour.
 

FCBarca

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It is just unfortunate scene because of how sensitive this stunt can be but I do not think Griezmann had any bad intention or is a racist.
Ignorance is not a good fallback position, never has been and never will be. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens more often than many would care to admit and always people of color are on the receiving end of the insensitivity
 

lsd

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There's so many posters on here who I always thought as pretty intelligent, but it just proves a good knowledge of a sport, doesn't equal intelligence on the real world. Truly baffled by the ignorance of so many. Cultural divide perhaps, you can blame age too, or maybe some on here are simply not even close to the sort I'd ever want to mix with in real life.

It is sheer ignorance i can only equate people trying to defend this as either trolling or they really are daily mail brexit voting Trump loving bigots