I think bowing to a vetting of your set by an oppressive government and not taking the chance to mention a huge miscarridge of justice regarding a fellow artist is a huge missed opportunity.
Music Bob Dylan
- Thread starter Kinky Melinky
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This is an intersting debate, let's not turn it into an argument about who is the bigger twat.
No its because you're basing your opinion on inaccuracies, the same inaccuracies that litter your posts in this thread.
But mockney couldn't be ill informed and wrong could he.... there must be another agenda.
Perhaps, though I think China will likely become more liberal in a gradual way rather than in a revolutionary moment. I think a drip-drip influence of the better aspects of Western culture may be a good means to compliment the best aspects of Chinese culture.
It's hardly Queen going to South Africa is it?
In your opinion. I always try and stress to the utmost how my opinions are merely that, yet posters like you love to lambast me as being holier than though whilst consistently sniping at me and making personal assumptions...but that's all so much better apparently.
You had a go at me in this thread. Unprovoked, 3 times, before I'd even adressed you. And yet as always, it's you whose the bastion of decency and fairness and I whose the snot nosed little uppity brat.
Well done.
Course not.
Eh? In MY VERY FIRST POST I said I could be being unfair on him and it's just my opinion...
But Popper's righteous indignation and superiority complex couldn't be misplaced could it?...No, there must be a mockney agenda.
have a horlicks or go for a walk or something.
Strange stuff.
So because he doesn't continue to try and be some pioneer of change which he used to at one point in time, that means he sold out? That's a weird concept of 'selling out' you have Mockney. You can't damn someone to stick to something they started just because they did it so well.
And Bono wouldn't be a sell out either if he one day gave up his Africa crusade. He'd just be making a choice to back down from a cause he did believe in but doesn't believe in continuing any longer for whatever reasons. If he said 'I'm Bono, the saviour of Africa, buy my albums (cheeky smile)' that would be closer to selling out.
So because he doesn't continue to try and be some pioneer of change which he used to at one point in time, that means he sold out? That's a weird concept of 'selling out' you have Mockney. You can't damn someone to stick to something they started just because they did it so well.
And Bono wouldn't be a sell out either if he one day gave up his Africa crusade. He'd just be making a choice to back down from a cause he did believe in but doesn't believe in continuing any longer for whatever reasons. If he said 'I'm Bono, the saviour of Africa, buy my albums (cheeky smile)' that would be closer to selling out.
Which is repeated everytime any artist plays any song live on any form of broadcast medium isnt it?
Radio & TV stations get a large say what songs are played. Artists could spend their time preaching about all sorts of injustices, but maybe they just see themselves as singers and have no interest in getting involved in wider issues, particularly if they've done so in the past only for it to get out of hand.
Righteous indignation or superiority have nothing to do with it.
You gave your opinion, which, as has been pointed out, is unfair because its based on factual inaccuracies and assumption.
But rather than mockney being wrong (perish the thought) there must be something else going on 'oh its just because its Bob Dylan.'
You're very first post was
He never had any political roots, as has been pointed out.
So you're opinion is based on assumptions inaccuracies.
Rather than say, ah I didn't realise X,Y, or Z you just go on to try and justify your ill informed position.
First post.
Where have I insinuated I cannot be wrong? If anything you're the one whose wrong about my assertions in this thread. Once again, YOU jump on the assumptive name calling bandwagon first, and then expect me to be a courteous and respectful in my replies..
You descend into petty point scoring, name calling, personality assumption, pop-phscho-analysis and all other forms of snipey bitchy shit whenever we argue far far quicker and more frequently than I do Popper.
And frankly, this whole "you're a holier than though self righteous blow hard Mockney" stuff is getting a little tired and incredibly hypocritical with it...I'm sure I'd struggle to find a thread where I've sniped at you first. I generally respect you as a poster and don't feel any need to. You seem to love it. Yet the agenda's on me apparently....
Roots was inaccurate. I'm more than happy to admit that. However I believe he used the nature of the genre cynically, and exploited it for his own ends, and I find it a crying shame he abandons it when it could help create, or instigate some positive change in the world now. Once again (and I'm getting tired of this now) I may be being unfair on him, but it's the way I see it from my political and moral view point. Which is by no means set in stone nor being foisted on anyone as the correct all or nothing way of everything....unless you're reading "Mockney: My assumptions, By Eyepopper."
Again, you're the one insistent that I can't change my tac or am rigidly unflinching...You're misestimation of me knows no bounds. Well done.
Is a completely irrelevant point. It's akin to saying "well he didn't do it, so I don't need to do it" or vice verse. I have a lot of respect (personally) for artists who do go out of their way (for self-aggrandising reasons or otherwise) for repeating such things whenever possible. I have less for those with the chance but don't. Especially if they have a huge amount of clout (and know they do) In this case, Bob Dylan.
Is a fair point. But still not at the root of the matter, which is my opinion (read that again - My opinion) that I find the whole scenario a shame for it's missed possibilities ..I'd consider any artist a sell out in such circumstances.
It's a shame you couldn't post politely and concisely like this initially, rather than cynically sniping at me repeatedly without any instigation or encitement....It's always nice when you take your own advice about the spastic need to insult people rather than engage in positive debate.
I'm polite, Mocks, and right 
I thought it was about him selling out?
I don't see why Dylan should be under any moral obligation to raise unrelated issues of oppression when in China, any more than he would be under a moral obligation to talk about issues of social injustice when in the UK. He's not doing a Bono or a Geldoff and trying to make out that he's changing the world; he's a musician who wanted to perform for the people of China.
Here
As has been said people jumped on you because you are basing your opinion on bullshit.
Where did I call you any names? I didn't assume anything, I questioned the content of your posts.
Again I dont think I've done any of this, unless you mean the Stewart Lee thing
Your opinions were self righteous in this thread.
Here we go with me being a hypocrite again. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, you made a comment based on an ill informed opinion and I questioned it. If you cant handle having your opinion called and questioned there's not much I can do about that.
But your initial point was that he's a major sell out and a prick...
Shwo me where I've insulted you in this thread.
It is selling out. Unless he's hunky dory with the situation in China and it's authorities, cow towing to them is selling out. And cynically exploiting his back catalogue is selling out....Now, you have a great point that he never had anything to sell out from, but it depends how you view selling out. I also consider it writing things for an audience you don't particularly see as your won to be a degree of selling out...
He isn't. And I haven't said he is. In fact I said he wasn't in my 2nd or 3rd posts.
Exceptional circumstances though. Ai Weiwei and Government censorship in China are bigger issues than everyday social injustice in the UK. IMO. Opportunity lost for someone who "could've" made a difference.
Exactly... he's not and never has been a social activist, he's a singer.
Yet people applied labels to him in the past and then judged him based on those labels, he talks about it at length in Chronicles, and its exactly what Mockney has done here.
But hey, that couldn't be it, we're all wrong, and now its about the nature of debate and who was and wasn't insulted, not actually about the facts.
Chronicles is a good read.
His ability to write songs which appeal to lots of different audiences is part of what makes him such an exceptional songwriter.
If anything the 'exploitation' of his back catalogue was done by those who used his songs as part of a movement he wasn't really part of.
I don't see how it makes him a bit of a prick then.
He's not a politician or diplomat, and shouldn't try to be. I hate this whole culture of assuming celebrities speak on our behalf... he's a musician! We elect people to speak on our behalf.
'Bob Dylan says no to China!' So what? Joe Bloggs says no to China, who cares.
It's an opinion...Where is it set in stone? Do you take everything I say that doesn't have an IMO at the end as an arrogant Mockneyism?
Why is it bullshit? You told me I don't know his motivations, which is true, but neither do you, concretely or intimately, so where do you draw the line at what side of the argument is bullshit exactly?
Pedantic & snipey. Completely irrelevant to the argument (Stewart Lee said nothing on Dylan, in fact I'm sure he probably loves him). Clearly intended to be a sarky swipe as my supposed motivations..
Again, snipey & bitchy..Yes, the Stewart Leeisms, completely intended to display what a silly boy I was despite it having nothing to do with anything reagrding the argument at hand....yet you felt the need to post it twice.
To quote yourself, you have no idea what my motivations were...
Despite you starting with the dialogue with pedanticism.
And even your first post..
Begins with a snipe. ...Before then launching into 2 other posts ridiculing the completely unrelated use of a stewart lee quote before I'd even exchanged any words with you.
Which also goes for a host of other posts on this page insinuating (wrongly - as I've repeatedly pointed out) that I've claimed I can't possibly be wrong.....But hey, you keep saying it. A bit like you've decided you can't be wrong.
I most definitely can. I'm hardly in such an argument with anyone else in this thread am I? Who've all managed to conduct themselves with the kind decent back and forth disagreements you (quite rightly) champion in any discussion on modding.
Prick was harsh. I'll happily admit that. I've no idea whether he's actually a prick or not.
I've read his motivations, in his own words, you clearly haven't.
You called him a prick (based on whats now clearly a total misunderstanding of him) and object to being asked if you've ever met him.
There's no point getting into how you interpret my posts, not much I can do about it.
You were talking mostly bullshit, and people who seem to be a little bit better informed on Dylans career called you on it, rather than admit you didn't know what you were talking about you claimed that I was only acting that way because I hero worship the man.
Then when more people wade in and question your position it becomes a debate about me being 'snipey, and bitchy', thats you're reading of the words, up to you.
No one outside of the Politburo can make a difference in China.
A knee-jerk opinion I'm happy to rectify or sooth...Though I consider the decision to play there, and allow his set to be vettod to be a (minorly) immoral thing for someone with such individual power to submit to. I'm more than happy to accept lots of people don't feel similarly though.
Have you?....Reading his autobiography is not akin to it. Nor does it give you the definitive opinion on him. Though granted it gives you a better one.
Well, there is. Especially since you're constantly at pains to tell me how I - and others - can go about making theirs better for discourse in any thread about modding or the like.
I wasn't talking mostly bullshit. I was giving my opinions spurred on his recent trip to China, something which I personally feel was a bad choice, and then expanded the argument to include my beliefs that his early work was cynical and thus less impressive to me than if it had been heartfelt, thus to me a sell out, whilst being constantly at pains to point out how I was most likely being unfair on Dylan, but holding him to my own personal moral standards, which were in no way foisted on anyone as the correct way to go about things...all the while whilst you ridiculed me for having these opinons, and continually asserted that I was claiming I couldn't possibly be wrong, despite me saying numerous times I could be...I fail to see where, prick aside, I've been at all unreasonable. Except to you. Whose waded in and called everything I've said bullshit and not once accepted your assessments I'm being defiantly unflinching and never in the wrong are inaccurate or unfair.
No, when more people waded in I responded to them in the general manner in which they responded to me....Exactly like I did with you.
This is 99% true....But considering the level of content in China is somewhere near 80% due to the ridiculous amount of oppression foreign views are given, I'd say it's of significance and importance for anyone with a platform to do so, to spread them..Especially someone beyond reproach in said country..but I realise not everyone thinks this.
Ok, you're right mockney.....
Dylans early work is cynical and would be far more impressive if he had refused to play China. I can picture the 22 year old Dylan now, cynically sitting down and thinking what will make him the big bucks, turning on the radio desperate to tap into the sound of the day and coming up with Blowin in the Wind, a stylistic tribute to Guthrie, I'd say he knew he'd be coining it in the minute he came up with it.
He probably read all those books of old european poetry and philosophy penniless in Greenwich village purely to come up with a formula lyric writing that would guarantee success rather than have any artistic merit.
The cynical prick.
Dylans early work is cynical and would be far more impressive if he had refused to play China. I can picture the 22 year old Dylan now, cynically sitting down and thinking what will make him the big bucks, turning on the radio desperate to tap into the sound of the day and coming up with Blowin in the Wind, a stylistic tribute to Guthrie, I'd say he knew he'd be coining it in the minute he came up with it.
He probably read all those books of old european poetry and philosophy penniless in Greenwich village purely to come up with a formula lyric writing that would guarantee success rather than have any artistic merit.
The cynical prick.
..
I've never once objected or disagreed with him being called a brilliant song writer, which was actually your only initial point in this thread (what difference does subjectively calling him a prick make to any of his tunes? - Answer: Nothing). Which I quickly agreed with, before your agenda turned to proving how I would never admit I was wrong about anything, despite admitting I could be in virtually every post. So claiming I've been shifting my position is a little rich Popps.
I dont agree that his motivation in songwriting is to shift units whatsoever, if that was the case why release rock and even country albums? Why claim in chronicles to have actively tried to antagonise his audience?
My point, was challenging the basis for calling him a sell out and a prick, which seems to be based on you misunderstanding and misrepresentation of him and his motivations which is common, but which is dealt with in his autobiography.
Country was the biggest selling genre at the time he wrote songs in that style. His religious phase was the most insincere of the lot.
To me it's pretty irrelevant. As I said earlier, you can write about views without endorsing them. There's no contradiction there.
While all you Dylan fans are here, is it true he stopped playing 'The Hurricane' because it became apparent Reuben Carter wasn't innocent after all? Or is that an urban myth?
I'd be more in keeping with the reason for Nashville Skyline being that he wanted to prove to the folk nazi's was that he could do the whole dulcet toned country and John Wesley Harding was a reaction to th emove towards studio and effects that Sgt Peppers and Pet Sounds represented.
The other things to take into account are his natural contrary nature, the time his career has spanned, and the fashions therein; and his own life we all change our moods and even the general themes of our lives, and we do it without sitting down and planning it or betraying any previous thoughts or emotions. Perspective and contexts change.
Who knows. Too much has be writen by people that aren't Bob Dylan. Dylan has become the property of commentators at this point. Decades of people trying to be explain a genius. People offended that he plugged in a guitar, people offended he spoke about his feelings and not the arms industry. We are at the point that an analysis of the analysis is needed. That or just listen to all his albums all the time and interpret them for yourself. Like one is supposed to.
edit - I know it took the sheen of the tune for me though
"The Hurricane" is vastly overrated anyhow, one of the worst songs on desire.
EDIT: Any love for Self Portrait in here? Listening to it now, "It hurts me too" is class.
EDIT: Any love for Self Portrait in here? Listening to it now, "It hurts me too" is class.
If the word ****** is banned can the verb "care" be as well? I'm getting a bit sick of it popping up repeatedly in every single 50-page e-gayness thread. Or maybe I'm just getting fed up with 50-page e-gayness threads in general, who knows.
Yeah, Dylan, quite good at writing the old songs.
Yeah, Dylan, quite good at writing the old songs.
I havent lambasted you really and i did read your post and id respond the very same way now. I think you have a greater idea of how politically motivated dylan is/ever was and putting a spin on it that he in some sense missed an opportunity to bring chinas problems to a wider audience is inaccurate in my opinion. He is behind all the attention and adulation an insanely private person, his last marriage going unknown until 8 years after his divorce. my point is, he might have very strong feelings about china but for all we know he's reached a point where he's beyond trying. he's been called a sell out far longer than a protest singer which to me suggests that protest was never his goal. he's the greatest lyricist of all time, and people in china got to see him play. the results of him picking his own set list would have most likely been inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
exactly. also for anyone to say that he wrote to shift units is absolutely amazing. i find the reason i know so few people that appreciate dylan is that they find him too cryptic, too hard to get into and too uncontemporary, its almost been a burdensome reputation.
Dylan always said what he felt in his songs and moved on. He did not paint himself into a corner or allow his audience to define him.
His Christian albums for example stand out as some of the greatest such work in that genre. That does not mean he needs to keep putting out Christian albums or he has gone back on his beliefs.
People have spent a lifetime trying to understand and define him and failed.
I just accept the great poet, singer and songwriter for what he is. He never ceases to surprise..thats for sure.
He just called himself a song and dance man.
aye...that he is...and so much more.
A hard rain is gonna fall.....a prophet as well
Only a pawn in their game. For me that one song just encapsulates what is going on in politics in this country.
He is still relevant. Thats what matters.
just my opinion of course.
His Christian albums for example stand out as some of the greatest such work in that genre. That does not mean he needs to keep putting out Christian albums or he has gone back on his beliefs.
People have spent a lifetime trying to understand and define him and failed.
I just accept the great poet, singer and songwriter for what he is. He never ceases to surprise..thats for sure.
He just called himself a song and dance man.
aye...that he is...and so much more.
A hard rain is gonna fall.....a prophet as well
Only a pawn in their game. For me that one song just encapsulates what is going on in politics in this country.
He is still relevant. Thats what matters.
just my opinion of course.
Ok, so you are Bob Dylan. You are 70 years old. You have in a career spanning almost 50 years been called a prophet, a messiah, the voice of generation, a sell-out, Judas, etc etc. You have been labelled every which way, people have tried to claim you for their own and hated you when you resisted. You've been able to adapt and evolve as a musician whilst trying your hand at almost every genre possible and been successful at it.
So now at this late age, when he's touring a country that he has never been to, allegations of editing his setlist or removing a song that he probably would never have played anyway and using that as the basis of labelling him a sell-out is just wrong. People even went mental when he did the underwear commercial. FFS, the man can do what he wants, he owes people shit besides the music he puts out. Maybe he just said feck it, I'm here, these Chinese folks have been waiting forever for me to perform here, I'm just gonna do it. Just like everything else he has ever done, we over analyze his lyrics too much, his actions too much. He's a musician, a song-writer and a poet, nothing more.
So now at this late age, when he's touring a country that he has never been to, allegations of editing his setlist or removing a song that he probably would never have played anyway and using that as the basis of labelling him a sell-out is just wrong. People even went mental when he did the underwear commercial. FFS, the man can do what he wants, he owes people shit besides the music he puts out. Maybe he just said feck it, I'm here, these Chinese folks have been waiting forever for me to perform here, I'm just gonna do it. Just like everything else he has ever done, we over analyze his lyrics too much, his actions too much. He's a musician, a song-writer and a poet, nothing more.
There's a bit of a modern obsession about biography which is a bit of a high-falutin' literary celeb-type phenomenon in my view. I'm not that bothered about how nice Miles Davis was/wasn't or Bob Dylan's political hygiene - just listen to their work, that's what matters.
Also to clarify the setlist controversy -
Dylan sang 'Times they are a-changing' 3 times in 2010 in 101 concerts.
And 4 times in 98 concerts in 2009.
He simply does not perform that song lately.
Dylan sang 'Times they are a-changing' 3 times in 2010 in 101 concerts.
And 4 times in 98 concerts in 2009.
He simply does not perform that song lately.
First one is one of my favourite bootlegs, second is the opening song from Blonde On Blonde
I completely agree with what you've said, very good post.
Also, must address the bit in bold which actually has a hilarious back story...
In a San Francisco press conference in 1965 (1:35 in the video) -
39 years later in an advert with Adriana Lima for Victoria's Secret, the prophecy is fulfilled -