Boeing 737 loses contact during flight in Indonesia

[Wicked_Badger]

Definitely the worst in the world.

And some of the most volatile weather conditions.

And some extremely old planes flown by the smaller carriers.

There’s some really shady weather systems in that part of the world.

We flew Singapore to Denpasar last year in some extremely nice, middle of the day flying conditions in a modern plane and there was fairly significant turbulence at the time. I remember thinking it was unusual for those types of conditions to cause that kind of bumpy ride and looked into the weather conditions in the area which can be extremely volatile.

When we left Bail to Dubai we flew Emirates in an A380 during a horrendous thunderstorm. The big beast was chucked about something rotten over that stretch of water. White knuckle, sweaty palms stuff.

That being said, it’s extremely unlikely for planes to be brought down by bad weather. Much more likely for a catastrophic systems failure. Indonesia doesn’t have a great safety record at all.

Hope they’re alright, but seems pretty grim.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

Thanks for the explanation, I'll have a read. Plan on doing a fair bit of SE Asia travel one day including Indonesia.

Garuda Indonesia is quite reliable. I never fly with it though, because It is 2x more expensive.

 

[George Owen]

There’s some really shady weather systems in that part of the world.

We flew Singapore to Denpasar last year in some extremely nice, middle of the day flying conditions in a modern plane and there was fairly significant turbulence at the time. I remember thinking it was unusual for those types of conditions to cause that kind of bumpy ride and looked into the weather conditions in the area which can be extremely volatile.

When we left Bail to Dubai we flew Emirates in an A380 during a horrendous thunderstorm. The big beast was chucked about something rotten over that stretch of water. White knuckle, sweaty palms stuff.

That being said, it’s extremely unlikely for planes to be brought down by bad weather. Much more likely for a catastrophic systems failure. Indonesia doesn’t have a great safety record at all.

Hope they’re alright, but seems pretty grim.

yeah, I've never been so scared in my life than when flying to Malasya. There was a crazy thunderstorm arriving to Kuala Lumpur (in an Air Asia plane, probably a 737) and at some point the plane dropped like 500mt in a second. Not even the biggest rollercoaster of the US made me feel that sick. That's the price to pay for visiting such beautiful places hahah.

 

[Foxbatt]

yeah, I've never been so scared in my life than when flying to Malasya. There was a crazy thunderstorm arriving to Kuala Lumpur (in an Air Asia plane, probably a 737) and at some point the plane dropped like 500mt in a second. Not even the biggest rollercoaster of the US made me feel that sick. That's the price to pay for visiting such beautiful places hahah.

If it is recent they all are Airbus 320 family.

 

[George Owen]

If it is recent they all are Airbus 320 family.

yeah. 737 or A320, one of those two for sure. This was back in 2012.

 

[Arruda]

Rest assured. Flying is orders of magnitude safer than any other form of transport.

Depends on the perspective. That is only true because we spend a lot less time in planes than other transports. Specifically, cars.

When you take a flight you're more likely to die than your average car trip. I am actually a very nervous passenger in cars. Even more in planes, and that makes sense from a statistical point of view.

Flying is only safer when you factor the distance into it. Not knowing this is probably one of the most common misconceptions about air travel.

 

[The Firestarter]

When you take a flight you're more likely to die than your average car trip.

You absolutely are not.

 

[Foxbatt]

Depends on the perspective. That is only true because we spend a lot less time in planes than other transports. Specifically, cars.

When you take a flight you're more likely to die than your average car trip. I am actually a very nervous passenger in cars. Even more in planes, and that makes sense from a statistical point of view.

Flying is only safer when you factor the distance into it. Not knowing this is probably one of the most common misconceptions about air travel.

The issue is that when an aircraft crashed more people die in that accident. I am sure more people die in road transport than in air crashes if taken over an year.

 

[hellhunter]

You absolutely are not.

Per trip taken you absolutely are.

 

[Carolina Red]

Can we all agree that “flying is super safe” is no comfort if you happen to be on a plane plummeting to earth?

 

[Foxbatt]

Hopefully one day there will be aircraft that has huge parachutes that can deploy and don't let it crash. Now there are single engine small aircraft that has it.

 

[Arruda]

You absolutely are not.

I'm confused, but I suppose you are right.

Most of my life I thought flying was safer, then for some 15 years I thought I read some data in a different perspective - and felt cheated - and now that I was about to retort you I revisited the idea and am back to thinking right again.

I think I was confused because deaths per journey are higher in air travel. But now I realize that probably includes all forms of air travel - not just planes, and among these not just commercial airliners. Plus, in a flight more occupants will be killed at once... Which bumps that number up.

What a mess I made of that idea. Nothing like trying to argue to rethink things

 

[VorZakone]

Can we all agree that “flying is super safe” is no comfort if you happen to be on a plane plummeting to earth?

Yeah. The statistics never have made me feel better.

Once you're up there in the sky, your life depends on the pilots. The horror of crashing is far more scary to me than a car crash.

 

[hellhunter]

Yeah. The statistics never have made me feel better.

Once you're up there in the sky, your life depends on the pilots. The horror of crashing is far more scary to me than a car crash.

It's the absolute lack of control and no way out that makes it unbearable for me.

 

[Foxbatt]

Yeah. The statistics never have made me feel better.

Once you're up there in the sky, your life depends on the pilots. The horror of crashing is far more scary to me than a car crash.

Actually more on the engineers, mechanics and the technicians.

 

[Arruda]

The issue is that when an aircraft crashed more people die in that accident. I am sure more people die in road transport than in air crashes if taken over an year.

Yes, I just realized that. Your second point wasn't in question obviously, I was just thinking that in those rare times I fly there was some logic in being stressed in that particular event (at least more than in a single car trip). But I get it that I was wrong about that. I'm never wrong about anything so this exchange has also been a very stressful event to me.

 

[Carolina Red]

It's the absolute lack of control and no way out that makes it unbearable for me.

Same here. I’m generally pretty chill when flying... but that thought always lingers in the back of my mind.

 

[George Owen]

Just in case:

 

[Foxbatt]

Same here. I’m generally pretty chill when flying... but that thought always lingers in the back of my mind.

It's always on my mind. Has anyone fecked up this time? But knowing how difficult it is to feck it up is the consolation.
I have done two crash investigations. One had fatalities.

 

[Salt Bailly]

This is why I always order a beer asap once onboard, and continue to order them until I'm steamed enough to accept my fate should the worst come to pass. At least it'd be an instant death (i imagine).

 

[Organic Potatoes]

If that flight data is reasonably accurate, then it can’t ’just’ be something like engine failure right? Without them they could’ve still glided for longer. It would have to be something to precipitate a complete loss of control, assuming it wasn’t intentional.

The natural caveats of too little information right now and me nowhere near an expert apply, of course.

 

[thebelfastboy]

Actually more on the engineers, mechanics and the technicians.

Agreed, the pilot is really in the same boat as everyone else if something goes tits up.

I wonder what the stats are actually regarding crashes where it's pilot error vs mechanical....

 

[Carolina Red]

Agreed, the pilot is really in the same boat as everyone else if something goes tits up.

I wonder what the stats are actually regarding crashes where it's pilot error vs mechanical....

Pretty sure it’s something like half are pilot error.

 

[Foxbatt]

Agreed, the pilot is really in the same boat as everyone else if something goes tits up.

I wonder what the stats are actually regarding crashes where it's pilot error vs mechanical....

Very few. The ultimate cause could be pilot error but most of the time, the starting cause is not pilot error. He or they compound it by taking the wrong decisions. That has caused many a crash. But they also have pulled of miracles.
The Air Canada 310 running out of fuel but landing on a disused runway that was a drag racing trip.
The landing on the Hudson River was another one. I met Captain Scully. Very down to earth. Just said it was instinct.

 

[Foxbatt]

One of the issue in some East Asian countries is also culture and the military. Lots of military pilots become Civil pilots and when they sit in the left hand the junior pilots sitting in the right hand seat is reluctant to over rule him because of seniority. This rarely happens in the west or in south asian countries.
By the book everything is clear but in real life it's not so.

 

[The Firestarter]

Per trip taken you absolutely are.

Can you expand on that calculation ?

 

[Foxbatt]

If that flight data is reasonably accurate, then it can’t ’just’ be something like engine failure right? Without them they could’ve still glided for longer. It would have to be something to precipitate a complete loss of control, assuming it wasn’t intentional.

The natural caveats of too little information right now and me nowhere near an expert apply, of course.

Right. Engine failure should not lead to the way they came down. It looks like loss of control. But even with the loss of both engines they could still glide. The flight data recorder would show what generally happened. Then the investigation team has to look for what exactly happened.
The flight data recorder won't say this bolt or screw broke. But tell in general terms what happened to the engines and the aircraft. Then it's an elimination process till you come to the final piece.
Of course the cock voice recorder is important too because it could tell them what was going on by the pilots voices.

 

[Lj82]

One of the issue in some East Asian countries is also culture and the military. Lots of military pilots become Civil pilots and when they sit in the left hand the junior pilots sitting in the right hand seat is reluctant to over rule him because of seniority. This rarely happens in the west or in south asian countries.
By the book everything is clear but in real life it's not so.

I recall reading something about this culture which had contributed to a couple of crashes for South Korean airlines. Not nec due to them being former military pilots, but to the culture of deference to seniors

 

[Foxbatt]

I recall reading something about this culture which had contributed to a couple of crashes for South Korean airlines. Not nec due to them being former military pilots, but to the culture of deference to seniors

yes and also in Taiwan too. It is gradually becoming a lot better now though.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Actually more on the engineers, mechanics and the technicians.

ATC too, I find that bit the scariest.

 

[Devil77]

Is this a Max 8?

I'm a regular flyer and have never got nervous on a plane before but even I'm shit scared of those.

Nope, an old -500 series airplane.

 

[Foxbatt]

ATC too, I find that bit the scariest.

Actually not anymore like the old days because now all commercial aircraft need to have ACAS. ( Airborne collusion avoidance system). In the air at least the two planes speak to each other and avoid themselves without pilot input in the worst case scenario. In landing the pilots are supposed to be able to see what is going on. It is on the ground that ATC may become a problem if it becomes a problem.

 

[11101]

Hasn’t Garuda Indonesia been one of the top 10 airlines in the world for the last few years?

Top 10 for the quality of food and the comfort of the seats, nothing to do with safety.

Until recently all Indonesian airlines were banned from Europe. Garuda worked hard to improve and the ban was lifted, in some part because the really dodgy airlines dont plan to fly to Europe anyway. Still, if you're in that part of the world and can get on a flight with somebody like Cathay Pacific or JAL, do it.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah. The statistics never have made me feel better.

Once you're up there in the sky, your life depends on the pilots. The horror of crashing is far more scary to me than a car crash.

Yeah but that fear is irrational!

 

[Judas]

Am I one of the few on here without a single bit of fear when flying? I'm so used to being on a plane at this point, I think I took 18 flights in 2019, never for a second was I worried, even in turbulence. I without a doubt get more anxious of crashing in a car as a passenger or driving than I do up in a tin can flying through the air.

 

[adexkola]

Am I one of the few on here without a single bit of fear when flying? I'm so used to being on a plane at this point, I think I took 18 flights in 2019, never for a second was I worried, even in turbulence. I without a doubt get more anxious of crashing in a car as a passenger or driving than I do up in a tin can flying through the air.

Same here.

It's understandable to have fear up there though. All of the stats and prob estimates and strict regulations can't compensate for the total lack of control coupled with being in the air literally (at least on the ground you're driving + feel you can maneuver/escape a dangerous situation: part fallacy)

 

[Stack]

The older I get the more I get anxious before a flight. I think that because I am nearing 60 my mortality is something I now consider more than when I was 20. Back then I never worried about flying.

 

[hellhunter]

Yeah but that fear is irrational!

It absolutely is, like most fears. Doesn't make it any less real for the person experiencing it, since silencing an irrational fear with rational reasoning and arguments is nigh Impossible.

 

[Buster15]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...737-max-rio-de-janeiro-plane-us-b1768783.html

Started flying last month.

Thanks for that.

 

[Buster15]

Depends on the perspective. That is only true because we spend a lot less time in planes than other transports. Specifically, cars.

When you take a flight you're more likely to die than your average car trip. I am actually a very nervous passenger in cars. Even more in planes, and that makes sense from a statistical point of view.

Flying is only safer when you factor the distance into it. Not knowing this is probably one of the most common misconceptions about air travel.

Not true I am afraid.
The safety statistics for air travel are calculated on a per mile basis, or per kilometre.