Boeing 737 loses contact during flight in Indonesia

[berbatrick]

I would rather in that Germanwings plane than in this nose-diving Sriwijaya Air or that US cargo in Bagram Airport Afganistan.

this is the worst one for me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123

flying around with no real directional or altitude control for an hour before crashing into a mountain.

and a different type of nightmare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

 

[Arruda]

Iminence of previously unexpected death is inevitably terrifying, but there is something dramatic about plane crashes that is nightmarish indeed.

I was once carried by a rip current on a deserted beach, at a time where I was unaware of what that phenomenon was, and knew not how to get out of it - which isn't that hard when you're thaught how. For quite a few minutes, after exhaustion started to kick in, I felt no hope to survive and would just wish I had a gun to shoot myself in the head, because I couldn't deal with the idea that at some point I would have no more strength to keep afloat, but wasn't sure when that moment would come. It just felt sooner and sooner, until, against my expectations, I was brought back to land by the ocean.

I'm not sure how long that lasted, but certainly more than 5 minutes, perhaps 10 or 15. Yet, even after going through all that, the prospect of spending two minutes in that dreaded Concorde flight, for a physically painless death, seems more daunting. Let alone for even longer crashes...

Probably a mix of your complete passiveness and lack of agency on a crashing plane, coupled with the claustrophobia and the fact that dozens or hundreds of people are with you, and none can do anything about it. Must be different for a pilot, focused on his actions.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Got all three in this one, which had an emergency unpowered landing on my homeland. Huge celebration around here at the time, still remember the ecstatic passengers being interviewed after landing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

Maintenance failing, compounded by pilot error, followed by them then skillfully saving the plane with no more room for error.

I think it was the longest glide by a commercial aircraft ever.

Good ol' Air Transat! Them Quebecois boys sure can land a glider.

 

[Arruda]

Good ol' Air Transat! Them Quebecois boys sure can land a glider.

Piché will always be one of my heroes. And not just because of his flying skills.

In 1983, Piché served 16 months of a 5-year sentence in prison after a plane he landed solo at a small airfield in the state of Georgia was found to be full of marijuana smuggled from Jamaica. He was pardoned in 2000 and is considered fully rehabilitated.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

legend.

 

[Carolina Red]

My girlfriend wants to die in a plane crash (when she's old) and it's a nightmare of mine.

What

 

[Cait Sith]

The obvious thing to do is not always the right one. The numbers you would need to answer that question are car trips and airline trips specifically, and the odds of dying in each.

Neither air safety statistics nor car safety statistics are presented on a way that easily allows ascertaining those numbers, specially the ones for cars.

It seems the odds of dying on a plane crash are on the order of 2000 times lower than the odds of dying on a car crash. My reasoning was that the average person probably makes more than 2000ish times more car trips than flight trips. I know I probably do, as I drive a lot (gross estimation some 8 trips per day) and don't fly much.

I grossly misinterpreted some data initially hence admitted my idea was probably wrong. But the idea was to be a bit more nuanced than simply repeating the not-based-on-any-data adage that "you're more likely to die on the trip to the airport than on the flight".

Aircraft fatality statistics look better because aviation is strictly regulated.

There are no drunk pilots (except Denzel Washington maybe), there are no speeding pilots, there are no 85 year old pilots who are still allowed on the cockpit of passenger planes, there are no 18 year old pilots taking a ride with their dad's Boeing to impress the girlfriend on a night out etc.

So if you are a driver with experience who follows the rules the likelihood of a fatal car accident for you specifically is magnitudes lower than the general "x people died in a car crash this year" statistic.

Take bus passenger fatality numbers as a comparison where alcohol, speeding etc. is also nonexistent. 10^2 times lower probability to die than as a pedestrian.

 

[elmo]

My girlfriend wants to die in a plane crash (when she's old) and it's a nightmare of mine.

What the feck.

If that's not a sign to bail, I don't know what is. She needs therapy.

 

[The Firestarter]

It was changed after 9/11. Yes the Americans pushed it hard for this rule to come after 9/11.
Yes I am saying it's better not to lock it that way where even the pilots can't lock it manually from inside. Now they can lock it manually from inside.
The security should be done on the ground. What is 10 people with a fork going to do against 100 people?
It's the case of the 100 ml of liquid. It's ridiculous. Because anyone can carry on board an empty container more than 100 ml. Two people together can carry more than 100 ml.

So you are saying that there should be an option to override the lock from outside, and NOT saying that cockpit door should be left unlocked ? Just to be sure, because thr wording on some of your posts above appeared strange.

 

[Ramshock]

I don't know. It's because of course there are two pilots too. 11000 feet is not even an altitude that needs oxygen. It could be a flight control failure but because they have located the flight data recorders they should know what happened.
This is also why flight decks should not be absolutely locked. The only one time highjackers have used it as a missile was in the USA.
There was also a different sets of instructions for the pilots before that. It was get out of the aircraft as fast as you can. And don't let the passengers get involved. Actually it's better for the passengers to get involved and overpowerer them.
Locking the flight deck has always been a bad idea.

Scary shit

 

[Enigma_87]

It was changed after 9/11. Yes the Americans pushed it hard for this rule to come after 9/11.
Yes I am saying it's better not to lock it that way where even the pilots can't lock it manually from inside. Now they can lock it manually from inside.
The security should be done on the ground. What is 10 people with a fork going to do against 100 people?
It's the case of the 100 ml of liquid. It's ridiculous. Because anyone can carry on board an empty container more than 100 ml. Two people together can carry more than 100 ml.

It doesn't work that way though. I'm up for that rule tbh. What can 100 children do against 10 trained terrorist? Or even 100 random guys or girls? Besides, most of those 100 people would be shit scared, if someone tries to hijack the plane, to defend themselves or would be taken by surprise.

Yes you can look inside liquids and bags on the ground, but can't look into guys mind.

Besides, as already has been mentioned the trained guys that can fly the airplane are already in the cockpit. Random guy landing a jumbo jet based on ATC instructions is fiction territory.

 

[Foxbatt]

So you are saying that there should be an option to override the lock from outside, and NOT saying that cockpit door should be left unlocked ? Just to be sure, because thr wording on some of your posts above appeared strange.

Exactly. Not that it should be open all the time.

 

[OleBoiii]

My girlfriend wants to die in a plane crash (when she's old)

Seems a tad bit selfish, unless she's flying a small plane by herself

 

[Foxbatt]

It doesn't work that way though. I'm up for that rule tbh. What can 100 children do against 10 trained terrorist? Or even 100 random guys or girls? Besides, most of those 100 people would be shit scared if someone tries to hijack the plane to defend themselves or would be taken by surprise.

Yes you can look inside liquids and bags on the ground, but can't look into guys mind.

Actually there won't be 100 children alone in an aircraft. It's not permitted.

The other issue is certainly for international flights they know who you are even before you board the flight. Don't only look at the guys doing the pre board screening. It's the guys behind the scenes that's important. They know where you bought the ticket and what card you used along with the passport number and where you have traveled in the past too.
And furthermore the destination countries know that you are arriving as soon as you check in for your flight and once you board the flight.

It's the same as what happened in the USA. They never thought about local terrorists. Aviation should look at all causes of accidents including accidents happening due to pilot incapacitation.

 

[Abizzz]

Is there any sort of new information that makes this cockpit access issue relevant to this particular crash?

 

[Foxbatt]

Is there any sort of new information that makes this cockpit access issue relevant to this particular crash?

Not yet. But pilot incapacitation is never ruled out at the onset when there is no radio communication or a declaration of emergency.

 

[Enigma_87]

Actually there won't be 100 children alone in an aircraft. It's not permitted.

yeah, it was just a figure of speech. Let's say 100 seniors in their 70s-80's. There are many groups like that traveling often or generally people that can't really expect to defend themselves against a small group of terrorists.

The other issue is certainly for international flights they know who you are even before you board the flight. Don't only look at the guys doing the pre board screening. It's the guys behind the scenes that's important. They know where you bought the ticket and what card you used along with the passport number and where you have traveled in the past too.
And furthermore the destination countries know that you are arriving as soon as you check in for your flight and once you board the flight.

It's the same as what happened in the USA. They never thought about local terrorists. Aviation should look at all causes of accidents including accidents happening due to pilot incapacitation.

yeah naturally I'm aware about that, but it's not only particular terrorists you know. It might be former employees with a grudge at the airline - guys without a criminal record. Your average Joe that was promised a lot of money. It's the same with drug trafficking - there are a lot of people that you just can't catch on the screening. They catch a lot based on advanced info, but also miss a ton, due to how commercial air transportation is and how hard is to follow and track everybody.

Knowing you can enter the cockpit from the outside opens the door to many terrorist activities that IMO are more probable than a single or both pilots nosediving the plane into the ground.

Besides, even if we consider the positive of accessing the cockpit in all cases from the outside, what is the realistic chance of someone without a training landing that plane taking control from the middle of the ocean? I mean, this isn't your ordinary Cessna or Piper that you can land based on 20 flight hours..

 

[Devil77]

Got all three in this one, which had an emergency unpowered landing on my homeland. Huge celebration around here at the time, still remember the ecstatic passengers being interviewed after landing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

Maintenance failing, compounded by pilot error, followed by them then skillfully saving the plane with no more room for error.

I think it was the longest glide by a commercial aircraft ever.

Another airplane that had to glide and land without engines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider. Saved by another very skilful pilot.

 

[Foxbatt]

yeah, it was just a figure of speech. Let's say 100 seniors in their 70s-80's. There are many groups like that traveling often or generally people that can't really expect to defend themselves against a small group of terrorists.


yeah naturally I'm aware about that, but it's not only particular terrorists you know. It might be former employees with a grudge at the airline - guys without a criminal record. Your average Joe that was promised a lot of money. It's the same with drug trafficking - there are a lot of people that you just can't catch on the screening. They catch a lot based on advanced info, but also miss a ton, due to how commercial air transportation is and how hard is to follow and track everybody.

Knowing you can enter the cockpit from the outside opens the door to many terrorist activities that IMO are more probable than a single or both pilots nosediving the plane into the ground.

Besides, even if we consider the positive of accessing the cockpit in all cases from the outside, what is the realistic chance of someone without a training landing that plane taking control from the middle of the ocean? I mean, this isn't your ordinary Cessna or Piper that you can land based on 20 flight hours..

It's exactly why it's not a Cessna or a Piper that flight deck access is important. It's so computerised and depending on most major airports anyone with a sense can land it when talked through it.
It's just pressing buttons and turning on knobs. Don't look at youtube videos in flight sim videos.
It will land and even cut down the speed and employ reverse thrusts and slow the aircraft down.

 

[The Firestarter]

Is there any sort of new information that makes this cockpit access issue relevant to this particular crash?

I think it was only a suspicion

It's exactly why it's not a Cessna or a Piper that flight deck access is important. It's so computerised and depending on most major airports anyone with a sense can land it when talked through it.
It's just pressing buttons and turning on knobs. Don't look at youtube videos in flight sim videos.
It will land and even cut down the speed and employ reverse thrusts and slow the aircraft down.

That's bollocks and stuff from the movie world. Yes I am aware that there several videos that show an ordinary untrained passenger being guided through the landing of an airliner , but afterwards they themselves had admitted that it took several do overs and they absolutely could not have done it if it was the real thing. There are so many ways this can fail.

Failure of communication. Pressing the wrong button on the radio and you are done.

Both the aircraft and the Airport need to be equipped to support the auto land system.

Any sort of technical malfunction that is trivial but requires quick action by the pilot.

Weather/ Turbulence that do not permit auto land or auto pilot in general.

And, for this to work, a random person must follow through a complex sequence of steps that have no leave room for pressing the wrong button and have no do-overs.

It is bonkers to suggest that letting passengers landing airliners in emergencies can be a justification for a less secure cockpit access.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's exactly why it's not a Cessna or a Piper that flight deck access is important. It's so computerised and depending on most major airports anyone with a sense can land it when talked through it.
It's just pressing buttons and turning on knobs. Don't look at youtube videos in flight sim videos.
It will land and even cut down the speed and employ reverse thrusts and slow the aircraft down.

I'm not sure about that mate. It's a complicated procedure - you have external factors - wind, rain, visibility, snow, minding a boatload of instruments, some airports doesn't have ILS... And on the back of that you are in a stress situation - zero training and your life (along with hundreds others) on the line.

You have trained, seasoned pilots making rookie mistakes for some reason or other disengaging autopilot in the wrong time or wrongly reading instruments resulting in fatal crashes, let alone a muppet from 15C working with the stick based on earpiece info..

And that is also in a perfect situation too - taking the plane on cruise mode, without in a dive already and 100% clear communication with the ATC. It will take probably an hour just to prepare someone and walk him through a landing procedure and reading the instruments, let alone him touching down on the first try.

 

[11101]

It's exactly why it's not a Cessna or a Piper that flight deck access is important. It's so computerised and depending on most major airports anyone with a sense can land it when talked through it.
It's just pressing buttons and turning on knobs. Don't look at youtube videos in flight sim videos.
It will land and even cut down the speed and employ reverse thrusts and slow the aircraft down.

You cant be a regulator, I'm sorry you just can't.

There is so much work involved to take an aircraft from cruise down to landing. It would be impossible for a regular passenger to do it even with the best instruction. Multiple configuration changes, communications to be done, navigating, fms settings. Never going to happen.

 

[VorZakone]

It's exactly why it's not a Cessna or a Piper that flight deck access is important. It's so computerised and depending on most major airports anyone with a sense can land it when talked through it.
It's just pressing buttons and turning on knobs. Don't look at youtube videos in flight sim videos.
It will land and even cut down the speed and employ reverse thrusts and slow the aircraft down.

You're joking right?

 

[Foxbatt]

No I am not joking. I don't care what anyone says. It is always better to have access to the flight deck in case of any emergency. The odds of someone as a passenger who has aviation background is extremely high.
Yes not every airport is equipped with ILS cat 3C. But almost every international airport is equipped with ILS cat 2.
That means you could be guided down to almost 100 feet or so without actually flying the aircraft.
How many of you have actually sat in the flight deck? I have too many times. Can I fly an aircraft on my own? Absolutely not. Can I change the buttons and the knobs under instructions? Absolutely and so can most of you.
You and I may wreck the aircraft when landing but many would survive rather than everyone dying if it slams into the water or into the terrain.

 

[VorZakone]

No I am not joking. I don't care what anyone says. It is always better to have access to the flight deck in case of any emergency. The odds of someone as a passenger who has aviation background is extremely high.
Yes not every airport is equipped with ILS cat 3C. But almost every international airport is equipped with ILS cat 2.
That means you could be guided down to almost 100 feet or so without actually flying the aircraft.
How many of you have actually sat in the flight deck? I have too many times. Can I fly an aircraft on my own? Absolutely not. Can I change the buttons and the knobs under instructions? Absolutely and so can most of you.
You and I may wreck the aircraft when landing but many would survive rather than everyone dying if it slams into the water or into the terrain.

How many people do you even think work in aviation? Surely the odds won't be "extremely high", not even remotely.

 

[Salt Bailly]

How many people do you even think work in aviation? Surely the odds won't be "extremely high", not even remotely.

He may be taking players of Microsoft Flight Simulator into account.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

How many people do you even think work in aviation? Surely the odds won't be "extremely high", not even remotely.

They must be including Microsoft Flight Simulator and Starfox 64.

edit: jinx.

 

[Revaulx]

Seems a tad bit selfish, unless she's flying a small plane by herself

She wants to die like her grandfather: peacefully in his sleep. Not like the screaming passengers in the plane he was flying.

Sorry if inappropriate...

 

[Salt Bailly]

They must be including Microsoft Flight Simulator and Starfox 64.

edit: jinx.

Tbh, having sunk hundreds of hours into Pilotwings in the mid-90s, I reckon I could smash it.

 

[Foxbatt]

Look up MPL. License. It's very different from the normal practice. You go straight to a multi engine commercial aircraft. Most of it is on the simulator. A MPL pilot who can fly a huge commercial aircraft is specific to that particular airline.
This is a huge change from the normal single engine small aircraft to twin engine small aircraft to jet conversion. They simply don't fly these small aircraft to go to huge commercial aircraft.
They are not even allowed to fly a small single engine aircraft. It's more a flight management now.

 

[Foxbatt]

They must be including Microsoft Flight Simulator and Starfox 64.

edit: jinx.

Someone who is familiar with flight simulator would understand a bit more than anyone who has never had any basics. They are not going to have a perfect landing obviously. It would probably skid off the runway but it would be on the ground and some would survive. Unlike a full head on crash.
You know that there are cameras now recording inside the aircraft?
Furthermore one radio is set for the emergency frequency. 121.5

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Someone who is familiar with flight simulator would understand a bit more than anyone who has never had any basics.
You know that there are cameras now recording inside the aircraft?
Furthermore one radio is set for the emergency frequency. 121.5

Sure, I just disagree with your definition of “extremely high”.

 

[Foxbatt]

Sure, I just disagree with your definition of “extremely high”.

It is really. Anyone who has done flight operations, ATC, aviation technicians, private pilots or engineers. None of them are pilots but have basic understanding of the flight deck.
Yes it won't be beautiful but they can be talked down. Especially if it's after take off.

 

[Enigma_87]

No I am not joking. I don't care what anyone says. It is always better to have access to the flight deck in case of any emergency. The odds of someone as a passenger who has aviation background is extremely high.
Yes not every airport is equipped with ILS cat 3C. But almost every international airport is equipped with ILS cat 2.
That means you could be guided down to almost 100 feet or so without actually flying the aircraft.
How many of you have actually sat in the flight deck? I have too many times. Can I fly an aircraft on my own? Absolutely not. Can I change the buttons and the knobs under instructions? Absolutely and so can most of you.
You and I may wreck the aircraft when landing but many would survive rather than everyone dying if it slams into the water or into the terrain.

I've sat inside Boeing and Airbus (intend to take the full course in the future, when I find some free time and for general love of aviation). The controls are completely different. Even if you sat multiple times inside Boeing and then sit inside Airbus you will need a lot of time to get accustomed. Even if you put aside visual differences and that in Airbus you had a lot more electronics compared to Boeing then you have joystick and yoke - the feel very very different. You set up course,autopilot, flight envelope is again different. Windshield and visibility is different, tyres, fuselage length, fuel capacity, you have to take into consideration prior to landing fuel, runway length, number of passengers, load, wind, visibility, clear traffic.

Besides having ILS doesn't mean that it's operational at 100% everytime. You have mainenance cycles, technical issues you are not guaranteed perfect conditions. Also even if you have ILS places like Innsbruck or Madeira you are a push of a button away from ending in tatters. Hell even London is hard to land for some commercial pilots depending on conditions, let alone at a smaller airport.

Let me put it this way even if I know Airbus, even had some flight hours, gone through simulators and all and suddenly appear in Boeing cockpit with zero knowledge about that deck I won't feel comfortable at all landing that plane and there is a big big chance of cocking up something, especially under pressure.

 

[VorZakone]

I've sat inside Boeing and Airbus (intend to take the full course in the future, when I find some free time and for general love of aviation). The controls are completely different. Even if you sat multiple times inside Boeing and then sit inside Airbus you will need a lot of time to get accustomed. Even if you put aside visual differences and that in Airbus you had a lot more electronics compared to Boeing then you have joystick and yoke - the feel very very different. You set up course,autopilot, flight envelope is again different. Windshield and visibility is different, tyres, fuselage length, fuel capacity, you have to take into consideration prior to landing fuel, runway length, number of passengers, load, wind, visibility, clear traffic.

Besides having ILS doesn't mean that it's operational at 100% everytime. You have mainenance cycles, technical issues you are not guaranteed perfect conditions. Also even if you have ILS places like Innsbruck or Madeira you are a push of a button away from ending in tatters. Hell even London is hard to land for some commercial pilots depending on conditions, let alone at a smaller airport.

Let me put it this way even if I know Airbus, even had some flight hours, gone through simulators and all and suddenly appear in Boeing cockpit with zero knowledge about that deck I won't feel comfortable at all landing that plane and there is a big big chance of cocking up something, especially under pressure.

Don't worry, the odds of a passenger having enough background experience to pull this off are extremely high.

 

[NotworkSte]

Look up MPL. License. It's very different from the normal practice. You go straight to a multi engine commercial aircraft. Most of it is on the simulator. A MPL pilot who can fly a huge commercial aircraft is specific to that particular airline.
This is a huge change from the normal single engine small aircraft to twin engine small aircraft to jet conversion. They simply don't fly these small aircraft to go to huge commercial aircraft.
They are not even allowed to fly a small single engine aircraft. It's more a flight management now.

MPL core phase is conducted in a single engine aeroplane. Not necessarily to solo level. I am not aware of a training provider who has a syllabus that doesnt include this.

 

[Foxbatt]

MPL core phase is conducted in a single engine aeroplane. Not necessarily to solo level. I am not aware of a training provider who has a syllabus that doesnt include this.

Mpl is strictly airline specific.

 

[Foxbatt]

I've sat inside Boeing and Airbus (intend to take the full course in the future, when I find some free time and for general love of aviation). The controls are completely different. Even if you sat multiple times inside Boeing and then sit inside Airbus you will need a lot of time to get accustomed. Even if you put aside visual differences and that in Airbus you had a lot more electronics compared to Boeing then you have joystick and yoke - the feel very very different. You set up course,autopilot, flight envelope is again different. Windshield and visibility is different, tyres, fuselage length, fuel capacity, you have to take into consideration prior to landing fuel, runway length, number of passengers, load, wind, visibility, clear traffic.

Besides having ILS doesn't mean that it's operational at 100% everytime. You have mainenance cycles, technical issues you are not guaranteed perfect conditions. Also even if you have ILS places like Innsbruck or Madeira you are a push of a button away from ending in tatters. Hell even London is hard to land for some commercial pilots depending on conditions, let alone at a smaller airport.

Let me put it this way even if I know Airbus, even had some flight hours, gone through simulators and all and suddenly appear in Boeing cockpit with zero knowledge about that deck I won't feel comfortable at all landing that plane and there is a big big chance of cocking up something, especially under pressure.

At no time did I say they can land it on their own. I said talked down. It means someone competent on the ground who is telling to put switches on and turn knobs. Of course anyone who has never flown is not going to be able to land on his own.
The chances of survival are much better with anyone in the flight deck than two people who are fully incapacitated in the flight deck.
I have done the SIM. The real one. When I tried to fly I crashed. When I tried to follow instructions only on the flight management system or auto pilot as most people know it lands itself.
This is what I mean.

 

[11101]

He may be taking players of Microsoft Flight Simulator into account.

And i could join an SAS raid because i've played Call of Duty a few times. How hard can it be.


You try talking an amateur through what button to press and where it is, under pressure of death. 'The grey switch over to the right, next to the 100 other grey switches'. Then try doing that in the final stages of approach when dozens of buttons, switches and levers have to be pressed in quick succession. Autoland helps but you have to get to that point first, it won't just pluck you out of the sky from 35,000ft and deposit you on the nearest airfield.

Experiments have even been done on this with random people put in a simulator. It doesn't work. Most couldn't even work the radio to get the instructions in the first place.

 

[Salt Bailly]

And i could join an SAS raid because i've played Call of Duty a few times. How hard can it be.

Piece of piss if Ant Middleton's talking you through it, mate.