Yea, probably with your blinkered and arbitrary view of what 'successful' is - but it flies in the face of what loads of people (some even in this thread) are saying along with many of the people reporting out there currently as well.
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
- Start date
Sometimes things dont evolve without pressure.
I point towards the Apartheid regime in South Africa many years ago.
I live in New Zealand, we are a rugby mad country, I love the game and its pretty much a cornerstone of our culture.
28 African nations boycotted the 1976 Olympics specifically because NZ wouldnt stop accepting South African rugby teams from touring NZ. There had been in 1971 a thing called the Gleneagles agreement which revolved around sporting contact with South Africa because of their apartheid policies. Despite this gleneagles agreement countries still carried on with their contact with South African Sporting teams and one most notably was NZ. Political pressure hadnt done a thing, it hadnt forced any sort of change in South Africas policies.
NZ was completely outside what the rest of the world was trying to push for because our govt insisted sport and politics shouldnt mix.
In 1981 a South African rugby team came to tour NZ despite widespread public opposition before the tour. I tool part in those protests which were pretty much the most divisive and violent of any protests NZ had seen. The tour still went ahead but the velocity created by the protests created change. Waiting for political pressure to create change had not worked for the decades before but this protest did and the African nations boycotting the Olympics did force change.
The idea that awarding countries major sporting events in the hope that social change will happen because of that is horribly misguided.
Post 1976
"I am boycotting a competition that is being held in qatar due to massive corruption, where hundreds (probably thousands) of workers died building the infrastructure and where the organization has made a point of being actively anti-lgbt."
You can't go from this to saying that bribery is my only issue with it. Even after that I conceded that without the other two, I could probably overlook the bribery.
Fair enough on the age.
Yes I have been to the Middle East many times, my work over the years has taken me to a number of places. Egypt, UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain.
World history shows us time and time again that political opposition to social issues revolving around basic human rights has minimal impact.
There are plenty of examples. The 1936 Olympics being just one.
Im not in any way equating Qatar with Hitlers Germany, the point I am making is when countries and people hope for the best that political pressure will implement change nothing really happens with any appreciable pace. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nazi-olympics-berlin-1936
There are plenty of examples. The 1936 Olympics being just one.
Im not in any way equating Qatar with Hitlers Germany, the point I am making is when countries and people hope for the best that political pressure will implement change nothing really happens with any appreciable pace. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nazi-olympics-berlin-1936
It's not the 1970s, the world's a different place and dynamics of hosting a global sporting event is not comparable - the ramifications of internet, social media etc
In the 1980s we wouldnt even be able to have this kind of discussion from one side of the planet to the other
Change for the better has already started in Qatar and it will continue after the WC is over
Sorry but that argument doesnt work when you look at history. Its easily comparable.
"Its not the 70s" argument is horribly weak and also misses the point I was making.
Political pressure is horribly slow in forcing change, thats been shown time and time again throughout history.
That whole "times are different" routine is a nice way to divert or deflect but falls apart when viewed through the lenses of history and social change.
So how is this WC not successful?
It's not an argument, it's fact - no need to look back at history when the evidence for change is already there.
Since Qatar was awarded the WC there have been vast improvements in workers rights (granted from a poor starting point) and the first ever Qatari citizen has publicly come out as gay earlier this year.
These things would not have happened with the eyes of the world on Qatar due to the WC.
Still a long way to go but the wheels are already in motion
This.
Also really weird how certain posters in here go on about how this WC is good because it will shed light and open discussion on the Human Rights abuses in Qatar, but then they’ll simultaneously rudely shut down any conversation about what the light that’s been shed has shown…!
Completely hypocritical - and makes it seem very much that the ‘shedding light’ angle is just a bullshit line to make acceptable their defence of Qatar.
Can’t have it both it ways. If you think that it’s good to shed the World’s light on the medieval, backwards practices in qatar then you should be welcoming the effects of that (in this case, a simple discussion on an Internet forum…).
If in actuality, you believe in what the qatar regime stands for, or are for some reason sympathetic with those practises, then at least have the backbone and conviction to own that and stop dancing around it.
"The head of Qatar’s World Cup organising committee has accused teams who wanted to wear the OneLove armband at the World Cup of sending a “very divisive message” to the Islamic and Arab world."
Yeah things are so vastly improved that we get this bullshit being pushed on us.
A fecking armband is a "very divisive message"
they can feck right off.
The main issues people complain about are the treatment of migrant workers and lgbt community. Can you give some examples on how this is already changing for the better?
And if that person isn't exiled or in prison by this time next year I'll be amazed.
Wait what? If they feck up? They are the ones accepting the bribe, which is even worse. You don't even make sense
That was quick
So not that great a step forward then? One Qatari person ever admits being gay and they are already in exile and campaigning against Qatar's appalling record.
I assume you read my other posts, where I say the shit treatment of migrant workers and lgbt community are my main problem with this wc, right? Bribery is just the bonus topping in this shit cake.
Unless I've slipped into an alternative timeline the English government didn't literally kill Alan Turing.
Turing was convicted and given a choice between imprisonment and probation. His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration."[145] He accepted the option of injections of what was then called stilboestrol (now known as diethylstilbestrol or DES), a synthetic oestrogen; this feminization of his body was continued for the course of one year. The treatment rendered Turing impotent and caused breast tissue to form,[146] fulfilling in the literal sense Turing's prediction that "no doubt I shall emerge from it all a different man, but quite who I've not found out".
He later committed suicide.
His treatment by the British government was absolutely reprehensible and disgusting but they stopped short of killing him.
Killing would have been more humane. They drove him insane till his death
Yup agreed, I wouldnt dream of defending any government who are guilty of cruel and unusual treatment of people due to sexual identity personally but that's just me.
Got any examples of this? Qatar specifically.
If a country can't accept LGBTQ then that country shouldn't be hosting an international tournenamant. They can bid for it again in 40-50 years once they've evolved enough to accept that.
Holding Dubai up as any sort of gay haven is truly bizarre. They may be very very marginally not as bad as Qatar but that is about it, at best.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/rese...il-and-privilege-gay-expat-nightlife-in-dubai
Shitholes like Qatar exist all over.
It was FIFA's decision to award them the WC. Because of the money they received.
The fault rests entirely with FIFA.
From what I've reportedly seen. The working condition is much better than in my Country. We're still building buildings with bamboo scaffolding at times, and dont mention helmets.. some of them arent even wearing shoes at times.
And the accomodation they provided is much better housing than the majority of our worker's own house.
Countries like Singapore like to used South Asian (Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, etc) for construction workers. You should see their working condition and compare it to Qatar. You should also compare their working condition back home to Qatar.
Some of the immigrants choose to not going back and try for a better living, even illegally since whatever they're dealt with in Qatar usually is still much better than back home.
Indonesia has been exporting female workforce to become domestic helper... Not that i support this... But they're getting 10x their salary back home, and most would have come back bloody rich for their standard. Buying a house and cars and lands back in the village of the one people working in Middle East was quite normal.
And the accomodation they provided is much better housing than the majority of our worker's own house.
Countries like Singapore like to used South Asian (Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, etc) for construction workers. You should see their working condition and compare it to Qatar. You should also compare their working condition back home to Qatar.
Some of the immigrants choose to not going back and try for a better living, even illegally since whatever they're dealt with in Qatar usually is still much better than back home.
Indonesia has been exporting female workforce to become domestic helper... Not that i support this... But they're getting 10x their salary back home, and most would have come back bloody rich for their standard. Buying a house and cars and lands back in the village of the one people working in Middle East was quite normal.
Sure, fifa is as corrupt as they come, but they didn't force qatar to use semi-slave labor nor forced them to beat and torture gay people. So I guess I'll keep criticizing qatar.
I don't know what country you're from (guessing Indonesia or somewhere close by?) but it sounds like workers are treated like sub humans. Hopefully, they will eventually be able to unionise and stand up to the parasites that exploit them. And every person in the world that has any sense of morality will support them. Anywhere in the world where human dignity isn't respected needs to be called out.
It's more complicated than that. Nobody can afford a fully unionized and full benefit pay no matter how you Western ideology think it's apt.
I've done orders for the American brand and their compliance list is enough to bankrupt my factory, and it's not like they're paying us triple. There's a reason only china and a few other nations can tackle US market. Without outsourcing your clothes would be too expensive to produce.
It's a very complicated issue.
And once you go full compliance you cant opt out. It's not a switch you can turn off or on. Workers compensation, benefits, cost of terminating workers, maintenance, and the variable cost of maintaining said compliance is enormous. And just ljke their military, there's no loyalty here. They could be your best friend this year and feck off the next year leaving you and your compliance cost running.
It's absolutely disgraceful that being able to provide workers with a decent standard of living is not achievable. Rampant capitalism is a cancer that will end this world.
In the UK and other western nations, workers were used as fodder by businesses. Paid just enough to keep you alive so you could still work. Once those workers stood up and said no more they ended up with the rights and privileges they have today (still nothing to write home about). But capitalism needs fodder to feed the machine so when the workers in the west stood up for themselves, the capitalists turned to the the east to seek out a new workforce that they can exploit. Once that workforce unionise and demand rights they move on to the next place and so on.
Eventually they will run out of people to exploit. At which point the the whole system come tumbling down.
Of course that's a huge step forward, how to do you think these things start anywhere?That was quick
So not that great a step forward then? One Qatari person ever admits being gay and they are already in exile and campaigning against Qatar's appalling record.
And I'm well aware of where Dr Mohamed lives and what he campaigns for - it's exactly this kind of campaigning that has started as a result of the World Cup that will continue to improve things in the region for the gay community for years to come
The question here was simply about whether this World Cup will bring positive change on human rights issues in Qatar and to me it's absolutely clear that it already has and will continue to do so. If you prefer to sit around dredging up irrelevant history from decades ago and ignore the facts of today then that's up to you.
Meanwhile I'm continuing to enjoy a World Cup that's not only great on a footballing level, but a social level too.
If so you have horrible work conditions.
1 openly Qatari gay person in total, who is only able to avoid persecution and prison by being in exile, is not progress at all.
It has made zero difference so far and if you think Qatar will not instantly reverse the miniscule changes that have made as soon as the World Cup is over then you haven't operated in the region.
Huh? Everyone is talking about what is happening now. Dr Mohamed is in exile for fear of his life right now. Thousands of workers died preparing for a WC that is still happening right now.
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1 is obviously progress from 0. These things have to start somewhere. In fact on things like gay rights, the first one is usually the most difficult and a seminal moment.
Plus there have been huge improvements on migrant workers rights in Qatar in recent years as a direct result of the WC spotlight, these things cannot be reversed - again these are indisputable facts for anyone who wants to know the details:
Qatar: New laws to protect migrant workers are a step in the right direction
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/08/qatar-annoucement-kafala-reforms/
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It seems that now the criteria is working conditions and LGBTQ issues. Sure they are very important issues. Especially the working conditions for immigrants. Working conditions for anyone for that matter.
You can shout from the skies about LGBTQ in an Islamic country and they won't change the laws. The same way about alcohol. All they would do at the most is turn a blind eye just as they do now and have been doing for some time long before the WC.
So this bashing of Qatar has to stop.
But You can go and bomb a country to stone age and invade and occupy countries but that's ok. Lot of hypocrisy.
You can shout from the skies about LGBTQ in an Islamic country and they won't change the laws. The same way about alcohol. All they would do at the most is turn a blind eye just as they do now and have been doing for some time long before the WC.
So this bashing of Qatar has to stop.
But You can go and bomb a country to stone age and invade and occupy countries but that's ok. Lot of hypocrisy.
Oh we're back to the hypocrisy of people from any place complaining about anything because someone else done something else somewhere else.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
It really doesn't and it definitely won't.
Which is why the WC should not be happening there.
Why? They deserve it.
These false accusations of hypocricy are what needs to stop. Nobody here bombed anyone and most were vocally against it.
There is no hypocricy in objecting to multiple things. So stop it.
^Construction workers, hardly a safe working condition
^Typical in Indonesia. No Safety Helm, no Boots, nothing
^Guess which place this is?
Which would (or should) make awarding a major sporting competition that requires mass construction impossible. Except as we seen many awarding organisations simply don't care if the bag of cash is big enough.
^Construction workers, hardly a safe working condition
^Typical in Indonesia. No Safety Helm, no Boots, nothing
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